MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

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    MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:35 am

    I just collected the Mag Adj stats of all Catalysts, at Int levels 10-59 and 99 (for all intents and purposes, as you'll see, consider this ALL Int levels).


    Uses:

    - Deciding which Int level to stop at for an Int build.

    - Knowing exactly when it would be more beneficial to invest in Int or in weapon scaling stats, for a Hybrid build. (CMW adds 1.4x your Catalyst's Mag Adj stat in magic damage to your weapon. So check the table to see how much your Catalyst's Mag Adj would go up with 1 more Int level and multiply that by 1.4; compare that with how much your weapon's damage would go up with 1 level in a scaling stat, and you'll know which adds more damage.)


    Quick Notes:

    - The Oolacile catalyst reaches its cap at a whopping 12 Int! It is by far the strongest catalyst at that level, with 180 Mag Adj. To get higher than that with any catalyst, takes 27 Int.

    - The Sorcerer's, Beatrice's and Izalith Catalysts all have the same Mag Adj at all levels.

    - The Banishment Catalyst and Demon's Catalyst are always beat by at least one other catalyst at every Int level. Therefore if you plan on using the catalyst with the best Mag Adj for you Int level, these two are never to be considered.

    - Other than Oolacile's, which caps out at Int 12, catalysts do not have a hard level cap. They will get increasingly diminishing returns until their max Mag Adj at Int 99. So know when to stop! Spending 10 SLs to get 1 more Mag Adj is definitely not worth it.

    - The Darkmoon Catalyst, as it scales with Fth, will remain at its base stat of 19 Mag Adj for all Int levels if you do not raise your Fth. Since this is a Int Mag Adj test, I did not raise my Fth. (UPDATE: Mag Adj values for this catalyst obtained by raising Fth are now available on the Wiki page, thanks to Reaperfan's contribution! Link at the bottom of the post.)

    - Velka's Talisman's Mag Adj scales with Int, therefore I included it in this test. Be aware that, in order to use miracles with this talisman, you will still need base Fth stat. So to decide whether this talisman is useful to you, compare its Mag Adj with those of other talismans (see this wiki page).

    - Final Note: For all intents and purposes, when choosing the appropriate Catalyst for your Int, there are really only 4 to consider (out of 9 catalysts). They are: Oolacile, Sorcerer's/ Beatrice's/ Izalith, Logan's, Tin Crystallization (TCC).


    Quick Recommendations:

    - Int 12-26: Oolacile Catalyst

    - Int 27-40: Sorcerer's/ Beatrice's/ Izalith

    - Int 41+: Logan's

    *- Int 32+: TCC

    *TCC is the strongest for all levels above 32. If you are comfortable with halving your number of castings, go with this one. Otherwise, go with either Sorcerer's (and equivalents) or Logan's, depending whether you are above or bellow 41 Int.


    Recommended Plateaus:

    - SL12-26: if you plan on keeping your Int bellow 27 and using the Oolacile catalyst, stop at whichever level you need to cast the spell you want. No need to go above the base for the spell since Oolacile is already capped out.

    - SL32: if you plan on min-maxing using the TCC. As with the Oolacile, if the spell you wish to use requires more than 32 Int, then go for the base stat.

    - SL45: if you plan on min-maxing using Logan's. At 41 Int Logan's Mag Adj is at 215; with only 4 more SLs, it reaches 234. Gains after 45 diminish extremely quickly (at 59 Int, Logan's goes up to 238 Mag Adj from 234 at 45).

    - SL50: absolute max I would recommend, and only for the TCC. At this Int, it has 293 Mag Adj. At 59 Int the TCC has 297 Mag Adj; a 4 point gain for 9 levels. (If you go do 50 Int and would like to use Velka's Talisman, you will get 199 Mag Adj for your Miracles. Compare that with the Mag Adj of other talismans at the base stat required to use the miracle you desire to decide which is best. Do not go above 50 Int for Velka's Talisman either.)


    Max Mag Adj Stats (Int 99):

    - Oolacile: 180
    - Darkmoon: 19 (240 with 99 Fth)
    - Sorcerer's/ Beatrice's/ Izalith: 240
    - Logan's: 250
    - TCC: 315
    - Tin Banishment: 220
    - Demon's: 200
    (- Velka's Talisman: 209 Mag Adj for Miracles at 99 Int)


    Those are all my recommendations based on my experience and the data I've gathered. If you wish to extrapolate your own conclusions from the data, all the numbers are bellow (I don't know how going from editing to posting will affect my formatting, so I'll post it in a safe, albeit not pretty, manner--will be much more user-friendly once in table-form in its own wiki page, to be done later). Numbers in parenthesis are Int level, following number is Mag Adj at that level, following numbers are Mag Adj by 1 Int level increments. Here goes! Bellow:


    Oolacile:

    (10) 22 47 180 180 180 (15) 180 (99) 180

    Darkmoon (see wiki page for Mag Adj values obtained by raising Fth):

    (10) 19 19 19 19 19 (15) 19 (99) 19

    Sorcerer's/ Beatrice's/ Izalith:

    (10) 109 110 111 112 113 (15) 114 119 125 130 136 (20) 142 147 153 158 164 (25) 170 175 181 186 192 (30) 198 199 200 202 203 (35) 205 206 207 209 210 (40) 211 213 214 217 (45) 219 220 221 223 224 (50)226 226 226 226 227 (55) 227 227 228 228 228 (99) 240

    Logan's:

    (10) 19 19 19 19 19 (15) 19 19 19 19 19 (20) 22 31 47 70 100 (25) 100 112 124 136 148 (30) 160 165 170 175 180 (35) 185 190 195 200 205 (40) 209 215 220 225 230 (45) 234 235 235 235 236 (50) 236 236 236 237 237 (55) 237 238 238 238 238 (99) 250

    TCC:

    (10) 19 19 19 19 19 (15) 19 19 19 19 19 (20) 19 19 19 19 19 (25) 19 20 23 31 42 (30) 57 76 254 256 259 (35) 261 263 265 267 269 (40) 272 274 276 278 280 (45) 282 284 287 289 291 (50) 293 293 294 295 (55) 295 296 296 297 297 (99) 315

    Banishment/ Demon's: won't waste my time! They're always weaker. If you want them, I can add them later.

    *Velka's Talisman:

    (10) 19 19 19 20 31 (15) 57 127 133 138 144 (20) 149 151 152 154 156 (25) 157 159 161 162 164 (30) 166 167 169 170 172 (35) 174 175 177 179 180 (40) 182 184 185 187 189 (45) 190 192 194 195 197 (50) 199 199 199 199 199 (55) 200 200 200 200 201 (99) 209


    That, I believe, is all you need to know about Catalysts's Mag Adjusts!


    *The info on the wiki page is the same, but I put all the numbers in a table which makes them much easier to interpret.


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:07 am

    WHO RATED THIS DOWN? Well What is it

    Edit: thank you all for restoring the rep balance!


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Whknight on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:08 am

    I believe there was a misunderstanding where someone thought the minus was actually a rate up.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:09 am

    :evil:


    Haha wasn't expecting to get a reply so quick!


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:16 am

    What timing, I just made a mage for the purpose of seeing how well one can do in PvP, I'm definitely going to be coming back to this page constantly, thanks a lot man.
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:24 am

    Sure!

    Go to the wiki page instead, though--it's easier to read: http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Magic+Adjustment

    Mages can do very well in PvP. And, to be honest, I find them much more fun to duel with than melee builds. Only problem is, because HCSM is bugged, you're disadvantaged when invading compared to hosting.

    I'd really recommend mixing Sorcery with Pyro, too. Sorcery spells are more precise, whereas Pyro are AoE. If you combine the 2, you can really confuse your opponent, which is a great strategy, and it'll increase your chances of landing hits. Be aware that, if you combine multiple types of spells while having the TCC in one of your hands, it will halve your number of castings for all types of spells, not just sorceries.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by callipygias on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 pm

    Just made my first sorcerer a couple days ago. This info is EXACTLY what I needed. Thanks! I'm glad I stopped at 50 int.

    Not that I expect exhaustive research, but can you recommend a good dexterity for casting? Since I use pokey weaons I was planning on taking it to 40, but I've left it at 22 (kind of an awkward number, maybe) because I somehow got to approximately where I wanted to level off at: sl 139 (for prime mid-high level Kings co-op). Would additional dexterity make much difference in casting time?
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:01 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHfPcu_B0nQ

    Dex only speeds up casting by a small fraction of a second. I say it's a nice side-effect for a Dex build, but not worth leveling Dex just for the casting speed.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by foolycooly on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:45 pm

    I think you should also toss in Velka's Talisman, I tried testing out a faith/int build once with velka's talisman and DMB, pretty sure the adjust was crap in comparison to using a Faith Talisman if I remember correctly =/
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:01 pm

    Depends on your Int. But no, it's not crap at all! If you have 44 Int to use CSS and you use Velka's to cast DMB, then its Mag Adj at your Int level will be higher than that of any other talisman up to Fth 39. So if you have the minimum Fth required to cast WoG or DMB, and also have high Int, then Velka's is actually a very good choice*.

    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Faith-Int+Talisman+Magic+Adjustment+Values

    *Of course, if you have 44 Int and you cast DMB with Velka's, that'll give you 395 bonus magic damage. But if you use CMW with the TCC instead, you'll get 392 bonus damage... so not really worth the effort of getting DMB that high! Still not a terrible idea to get 28 Fth for WoG, though.


    Edit: at 50 Int, the buff is 417 for DMB & Velka's vs 410 for CMW and TCC. Also, I did include Velka's in my test, it is up there.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by ublug on Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:54 am

    A quick question.
    Can the bellowing ring be used to cast miracles with Velkas, since it draws upon int? Or is the ring tied to the spells? I'm guesssing it can't, but I have never even considered this possibility.
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:52 pm

    Ublug I noticed no difference on my GL when using it to cast Gravelord dance with Velka's.
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:31 pm

    Was a good question, worth testing. My results concur with Tolvo's; bellowing dragoncrest ring doesn't affect miracles, even with an Int-based talisman.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:53 pm

    Bump.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:55 pm

    Reim, this is a sticky it doesn't need to be bumped haha.

    Hey I was curious if any other magic users in here know, but say I was just wanting to use the CMW buff, is there a good reason to go above the 25 Int required just to cast it, or is there very little of a damage increase if I keep putting int into it? Because I wanted to use this character for FC, and spells aren't allowed however buffs are.
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:37 pm

    If you want to use CMW I would recommend going to 32 Int, simply because you get a significant bump in Mag Adj at that level. At 25 Int, your best option is still the Oolacile Catalyst, which has been capped at 180 Mag Adj since 12 Int! But at 32 you can start using the TCC, which will get you 254 Mag Adj. In damage numbers, that means a bump from 252 to 356; that's 104 more damage for 7 levels of Int, or almost 15 damage per level... that's huge! No other way you'd be getting such a significant increase in damage out of 7 levels.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:41 pm

    Thanks for the info, plus I could have a few more spells and damage from them under my belt. As well I always hated the look of the Oocatile Cat haha. Again, thanks. Why the hell aren't more people asking questions in here?
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:49 pm

    Maybe they're afraid to venture into a sub-forum? silly "General Discussion" is so comforting!

    Also, the TCC goes up pretty regularly between 32 and 50 Int. So if you keep raising your Int, you'll get an average of 3 extra damage per Int level from CMW using the TCC. What you could do, is keep your attunment reasonably low, and use Logan's to get the most castings out of your few slots when you're not at FC. Then at FC, switch to TCC for CMW, and you won't have so many wasted levels in Att since you can't use spells.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:55 pm

    Hmm, I've actually been a bit curious about that Catalyst, since I know it reduces the number of casts but boosts damage. It would effect the damage of CMW drastically right? But also reduce my buffs? So I'd get to use it for about one fight, or does it not effect buffs? As well I was planning on GL'ing on this toon when not at FC, so being able to cast CSS doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. As well I probably wouldn't need much STR really, I'm probably already at what I should cap at and just focus on Dex, End, Vit, and Int since I already have 19 attunement.

    Maybe people just also hope others will ask the questions for them, which I might be doing right now haha.
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:06 pm

    The TCC has higher Mag Adj than any other catalyst, but it will halve your number of castings (and round down in the case of an odd number). So for CMW, which you normally have 3 casts of, you're down to 1. (But if you were to have 3 scrolls attuned, like I could silly, you'd have 4.)

    For PvE, I don't find it very useful. You can get a lot more damage out of 2 castings of a spell with Logan's than 1 with TCC. Also, since spells are prone to missing for any retarded reason, you get a lot more damage out of 1/2 casts that hit using Logan's than 0/1 using TCC!

    When I duel with my Mage, I also use Logan's, because I like to mix pyro and sorceries and dual wield Logan's in left and a Pyro Flame in right. TCC will halve your castings for all magic types, so if you're dual-wielding, that means half-less pyro for nothing... But if I wanted to attune only sorceries, then I could use TCC--but I also have 10 slots, so I can afford to halve my castings!

    For Fight Club, though, and specifically events where spells aren't allowed but buffs are, then the TCC would allow you 1 buff before you need to recharge at a bonfire. Nobody buffs twice in one fight anyways! TCC doesn't increase the spell's duration though, by the way. Only the Lingering Dragoncrest ring can do that.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:22 pm

    Hmm, well the idea was that with three casts if I win two fights I can still use another Crystal weapon, but I never do last more than one fight usually so probably the TCC would give me a bit of the edge I need. By the way would you say the Dragon Breath spell is worth it? I was thinking in tight halls and bridges it might be useful, but I've never seen it effectively used. Do you ever find a use for it?
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:51 pm

    I've managed to hit a few people with it in a straight up duel, in wide-open quarters (best to aim it manually, not lock-on... like every spell, actually!). I think it's a pretty worthless spell though. Its got a short range and long casting time, making it very tricky to cast. Basically, you need to cast it when your opponent is far enough but condition them that they'll rush you when you cast it, to have a chance for it to hit. If you cast when they're too close, you'll get backstabbed; if they don't rush you, you won't hit them because they'll be out of range. And it's got a very narrow attack range, very easy to side-step. And it's got a tendency to crawl up walls, obstacles, and doorways, and miss rather than go straight at your target, so it's not great in narrow areas either. So, after all that, if you manage to land a hit... the best it can do, in my experience, is about 750 damage. Quite low for such a tricky spell. I imagine, with practice, one could get pretty good at landing it, but that damage isn't worth the effort, in my opinion.

    It can be decent as a distraction in duels. Condition your opponent to expect WDB and to dodge it by rolling back outside its attack range. Then surprise them with a CSS instead of WDB, which has a much longer range. But is 1 surprise hit worth a spell slot and 6 Int levels? That's up for you to decide, but for me it's not.

    Other than that, it's decent for PvE. Most mobs rush you on sight, so it's easy to bait them, get some distance, and cast. And it'll hit multiple enemies if they're all standing in a line (Soul Spears can do that too). But, with the mediocre damage, as soon as you start advancing in NG+s it won't kill anything anymore.

    So, all in all, it could be a good spell for medium level co-op, where your host won't be in NG+s. For duels, it can be decent with practice, but I don't think its damage is worth it.


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:02 pm

    I can actually think of a few spots in the forest where it would be useful, but Fire Tempest or Gravelord Dance could apply in the same spot, and to better effect. I think I'm going to stop once I can cast CSS since I want to test out that spell a lot, and since I'll most often be doing fight after fight I think I will need the multiple casts.

    Also I almost never lock on for casts, even when PvE'ing. Thanks for the info, I can't wait to test a lot of this stuff out.
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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:44 pm

    Happy to help!

    Just one thing about the Gravelord sword and fire tempest spells: be very cautious using them when you're against a mage. When you cast those spells, people will just go outside their range, which'll give you some breathing room. If you're only fighting melee opponents, what you won't realize is just how long you lose control of your character for while casting those spells. So if you're fighting a mage, be very weary of Soul Spears coming your way while you can't control your character!


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    Re: MAGIC ADJUSTS: All Catalysts, All Levels

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:47 pm

    I do know, there are certain areas in the forest to use it at is all, the bridge is one such specific spot. I am very thankful Velka's Talisman is in the game haha, especially since the Dance has zero requirement to cast, so anyone that can use a talisman is capable of casting it.

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