The Min/maxing idealism

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    PlasticandRage
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue May 08, 2012 1:40 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I think Serious's argument is...

    I never gave an opinion or voiced what I did in this thread,

    Ok, well I'll rephrase: I think most people's argument is that skill wins out over equipment. Though equipment helps, it isn't as important as being good at the game. It's certainly my argument.
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue May 08, 2012 1:41 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I think Serious's argument is...

    I never gave an opinion or voiced what I did in this thread,

    Ok, well I'll rephrase: I think most people's argument is that skill wins out over equipment. Though equipment helps, it isn't as important as being good at the game. It's certainly my argument.

    Thanks winking I never intended to try to sway the thread one way or another, though I will take it in a slightly different viewpoint or direction if I feel the need happy


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue May 08, 2012 1:52 pm

    I see the trend of emphasis in our community definitely leaning towards the value of being able to dodge over being able to successfully block or take hits. Which says to me that most people favor skill. Otherwise I might not speak in generalizations about others perspectives.

    I'll also say though, that if aesthetically something that has great defense fits my build, and in weight, I'll use it. In fact my current build wears giant's grieves. I think for the mast part that armor is really ugly, but the grieves happen to go really well with my other armor choices, and because they're kind of lacking in defense stats it's nice to have something to even it out a little.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Tue May 08, 2012 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue May 08, 2012 1:54 pm

    Do you not think that it's unfair to say it is not skillful to use a shield in PvP, to block a hit and return one of your own after taking no or minimal damage is overlooked a lot I feel in PvP


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue May 08, 2012 1:58 pm

    I don't think using shields dictates that one has no skill. My current build is also based around Havel's Great Shield. There are ways around just blatantly attacking someone's shield and having your attack deflected. If someone's clueless enough to do that against my HGS then, IMO, they've earned the Leo Ring strengthened counter attack they get from me in response. But I also have to say when I get invaded by someone who isn't using a shield, and they beat me, I give them all the respect in the world.

    I feel like I should also add that I don't think I'm the most skilled player ever. I think I'm pretty good. I'm getting to the point where I'm winning just as much as I'm losing. Definitely have battles where I just completely take people apart, but it happens to me too.
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by SATLOS on Tue May 08, 2012 2:21 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I think Serious's argument is...

    I never gave an opinion or voiced what I did in this thread,

    Ok, well I'll rephrase: I think most people's argument is that skill wins out over equipment. Though equipment helps, it isn't as important as being good at the game. It's certainly my argument.

    I'm not sure what the problem is with the Giant's Set. I think it looks badass as a full set, and it works well with my VIT/STR/END character (no tricks, just a +15 Large Club in your face).

    Skill is the issue. They min/max because they don't have it.

    At SL 110 I invaded a guy in the same set of armor in the Parish... "Flawless Victory" and got 60k souls for the kill. He messaged me asking "what weapon was that that could decimate the best armor in the game". He was SL 260.

    Who cares what they're wearing? Let them min/max. If its 1 vs. 1 they usually die quickly anyways.
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue May 08, 2012 2:33 pm

    I wouldn't fault somebody for using it. My answer in this game is always: "do what you want to do, what feels most comfortable." I think fault lies in believing that it's viable substitute for skill
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by GkMrBane on Tue May 08, 2012 2:39 pm

    Skill+ Gear = win 95% of the time

    Skill + looks = Win 75% of the time

    no skills + gear= win 15% of the time

    no skills + looks = win 3% of the time.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Carphil on Tue May 08, 2012 2:44 pm

    Of course everyone here is "against Min/Max", preffer looks over efficiency and never wear havels or giants set.

    But tell me something

    How many users here in our forums uses Dark Wood Grain Ring to wear a bit more armor, have poise and still ninja flip?

    How many uses at least one part of havels set?

    How many cosplay Tarkus, Solaire or Kirk with DWGR? I never saw any of those NPC ninja flipping...

    Me, for example, aways put on Havels chest when PVEing in New Londo, I also wear a mask that I got from Pinwheel when first entering Tomb of Giants, and I adapt pretty much all my equipment when I enter a new area.

    PVP is another story, 50% wear the same set: Giants chest, gloves, leggings. Mask of the mother, lightning rapier, Hornets or DWGR and Ring of Favor and protection, and the other 50% try to create toons with at least Personality. Some even create backstories for them.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue May 08, 2012 2:59 pm

    That's exactly the kind of thinking I wanted this thread to have car. A good set of questions.

    I answer yes to 1 and 2, but in my defence havel's gauntlets look *** cool! (Number 1 you don't even need to justify, not using the DWGR is just too massive a disadvantage just to sit on the high horse in my opinion)

    Also Mr bane, plucking random numbers out of the air doesn't make your point any more valid happy What you seem to misunderstand is you can still be well equipped without pulling out all the statistical stops and loopholes.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by GkMrBane on Tue May 08, 2012 3:24 pm

    Who doesnt like to Win PVP?

    I do and I'll do anything I can to lower my enemys advantages and increase my own however I do draw the line at chain back stabing and Twop and attacking while bowing and buffing.

    I win more and I enjoy winning so Min/Maxing provides me with more enjoyment thats all there is. . . .. . . Pal


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue May 08, 2012 3:53 pm

    I like to win, and I never needed to min/max to allow me to do so..

    Though I don't get your point.. i was talking about your numbers really, and the fact they presume you can't have good gear without min/maxing, don't get insulted it wasn't a personal slander or anything like that, your ideas just needed explaining.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue May 08, 2012 4:25 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    RantFromRant wrote:i thought mix/maxing was about getting the most of the sl youre gonna cap your build at. if so then i am one of those but i hate wearing havel/giant armor becasue its so freaking ugly and theres other armor combos that give you the same protection(almost). i want my toon to look good, if it looks ugly as hell i cant have fun with it.

    Min/maxing in the sense I am putting forth is the idea that you make the most use of your available equipment to create the strongest character you possibly can, getting boosts like poise from full tank armour, effects from masks and using huge elemental weapons or BKGA etc to maximise attack power, with only concern for winning.

    They don't care about that they look like or how they do it, they utilize equipment to sheerly have the numerical advantage, feeling it is all they need.


    It's hilarious, thinking just numbers will give them the win. So many of the same fools, looking the exact same, acting the exact same. They all fall just the same, and it's sad because they don't even bother learning new styles.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by WarriorOfSunlight on Tue May 08, 2012 4:51 pm

    I used to tank all day! Fat roll ftw.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by KomradDakka on Tue May 08, 2012 4:59 pm

    As a PVE'r almost exclusivley, i dont Min Max, i like building my toon how he or she would act in that situation, for instance, my toon wouild never wield anything occult as a Cleric.

    aside from that. i dont really have a grudge with others min/maxing, i cant really force them how to play, it just gets a little annoying/boring when the same havel flipping d1ckwraith with a lightning washing pole that back stabs me over and over. i can imagine my character saying "Have at you!You foul....you foul...er-.. what are you supposed to be?" it just doesnt feel right in a game like this. i wanna have cool duels with unique darkwraiths with some history behind the character.

    my fault for being a late DkS bloomer i suppose


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by GkMrBane on Tue May 08, 2012 4:59 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:I like to win, and I never needed to min/max to allow me to do so..

    Though I don't get your point.. i was talking about your numbers really, and the fact they presume you can't have good gear without min/maxing, don't get insulted it wasn't a personal slander or anything like that, your ideas just needed explaining.

    I wasnt insulted. its a joke man but when ever someone calls you pal you supposed to go ; im not your pal , buddy to which I respond im not you buddy pal. big grin


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Knight Alundil on Tue May 08, 2012 5:01 pm

    KomradDakka wrote: i wanna have cool duels with unique darkwraiths with some history behind the character.

    ^This
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue May 08, 2012 5:27 pm

    I'm not your pal buddy


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Knight Alundil on Tue May 08, 2012 5:28 pm

    I aint your buddy, guy >.>


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Karn on Tue May 08, 2012 5:30 pm

    Skill > Stats.

    I've recently started faring much better in 2v1s, and win around 60-70% of the fights I'm in. Currently FHing, and almost every single person I run into is wearing the exact same gear, using the exact same weapons. And the ones who aren't are wearing different variations. Different mask, different set of gear to hit 77 poise, using the MLGS or Zwei, or whatever instead of the BKGA. and still flipping like an obese ninja.

    Ran into a guy last night using a rapier and fishing for backstabs the ENTIRE fight. I just wanted to ask him where is the skill in what he's doing? Anyone can pick up a rapier and run around someone until they get a backstab. Others do it with greatswords. I mean whats the point? I can understand getting a backstab after someone makes a mistake. But fishing for them? All I have to do is counter, and then half the time they can't get out of a chain BS, so it's no mercy for them.

    Then we have the spell spamming morons. Combustion, WotGs. All easy to dodge, but it seems that's all they know how to do. Something else that anyone can do. It also requires no skill at all. Normally I'll pull out my own talisman and teach them how it's done, but I have gotten a few unlocked roll BSes on these jack asses too =D

    Then people who heal. This isn't so bad as the others. But a duel to me is to the death with no forms of healing. Invaded in the forest lastnight against a Host and his Sunbro, Sunbro bows and we heavily get into it. His poise gets eaten up and he gets torn to shreds with a SLB buffed PGS, the amount of attacks and how fast they are is just nuts. His Host heals him up, and he runs away. So the same thing happens again through his CSS spam, again the host heals him up. My buff runs out, so I switch to the DSS, get a chain HR BS on the sunbro, he gets healed up again and backs off. The host comes down and bows. He buffs his claymore, I try to use a humanity and as I heal he hits me back down to 2/3rds of my health. So I just start turtling with the range on the DSS, getting close enough for a few hits and dodging away., he takes the time after one of these hit'n'runs to start flasking again. BS him, and his phantom buddy hits me with a CSS. The guy has the nerve to message me and tell me that I'm bad, and need to quit the game.

    You can wear whatever gear you want, use whatever weapons and rings you want. In the end it comes down to ability over gear and skill over stats.
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Akatik on Tue May 08, 2012 5:31 pm

    Carphil wrote:Of course everyone here is "against Min/Max", preffer looks over efficiency and never wear havels or giants set.

    But tell me something

    How many users here in our forums uses Dark Wood Grain Ring to wear a bit more armor, have poise and still ninja flip?

    How many uses at least one part of havels set?

    How many cosplay Tarkus, Solaire or Kirk with DWGR? I never saw any of those NPC ninja flipping...

    Me, for example, aways put on Havels chest when PVEing in New Londo, I also wear a mask that I got from Pinwheel when first entering Tomb of Giants, and I adapt pretty much all my equipment when I enter a new area.

    PVP is another story, 50% wear the same set: Giants chest, gloves, leggings. Mask of the mother, lightning rapier, Hornets or DWGR and Ring of Favor and protection, and the other 50% try to create toons with at least Personality. Some even create backstories for them.

    I can honestly say that I have never used Havel's or the DWGR. In fact, I've never killed the ninja that drops it.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Tolvo on Tue May 08, 2012 6:01 pm

    In the forest I usually do Min/Max, but I also have cosplay builds I take in there such as my Man in Tights, who has less than 200 defense, zero poise, a parrying dagger, a base full leather set and pharis hat, no DWGR. When I duel I always cosplay, and I only use the DWGR with my ninja cosplay for when I duel. I hate that ring as some of you know, and I'd rather it was just not in the game. But in the forest on most of my builds it's utter suicide without it. At the same time, I sort of like to do it to show someone up. It's like beating someone into submission with an arm tied behind your back, I like the challenge of having lesser gear.
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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue May 08, 2012 6:09 pm

    GkMrBane wrote:I wasnt insulted. its a joke man but when ever someone calls you pal you supposed to go ; im not your pal , buddy to which I respond im not you buddy pal. big grin

    And suddenly everyone starts reciting this idea after you reference it, and I have no idea what it's from or why people do it lol!


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by FinPeku on Tue May 08, 2012 6:48 pm

    I have a min-maxed build (fap, dwgr, mom, wotg) for forest invasions and I still enjoy it very much because of the challenge the 3v1 situations bring.

    I also enjoy cosplaying and all the not so efficient builds and that's why I'm in the assassins of vinheim covenant. Different builds serve a different purpose.

    I honestly think that many people (including me) should stop demonizing the min maxers and gankers etc. Even if I find that kind of playstyle boring, who am I to say they shouldn't play like that. This is just a game meant to entertain people.


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    Re: The Min/maxing idealism

    Post by Majikero07 on Tue May 08, 2012 7:08 pm

    I have nothing against min/max builds and gankers. I just find min/max incredibly boring and dull. Gankers on the other hand are just annoying which I like to pick on and generally mess around with.

    Also, is it just me or does Wrath of God animation looks like a pelvic thrust?

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