OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:23 pm

    Nothing in the game is broken imo, atleast the stuff that was put in intentionally. BS are cheap because of the lag, nothing else. All the items/equipment in dks are all perfect and accessible to everyone. Cheap is just something we call when we dont like to fight it or cant counter it
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Carphil on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:27 pm

    Yea but flipping tanks vit builds are a pain in the ***


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:29 pm

    Only if they have two phantoms, otherwise it is easy to kill them. big grin
    But yeah the upgrading system is not as good as it was in demon souls


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:43 pm

    Imarreteet23 wrote:Oh, and one more thing on the Leo ring. It only works for pierce weapons, like rapiers and spears.

    Not exactly. It works on thrust attacks. Meaning, it works on claymore's thrust attack and anything like it.
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:45 pm

    Broken, cheap, and overpowered mean different things.

    Rapiers and backstabbs are broken because of the lag, they don't work as intended.

    Nothing is cheap as everything has a counter.

    The dwgr is overpowered, its sheer effectiveness eclipses that of any item with a similar effect by double or more and renders not using it a clear disadvantage for most builds.

    The dwgr isn't cheap, its op.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:47 pm

    Artorias wrote:Nothing in the game is broken imo, atleast the stuff that was put in intentionally. BS are cheap because of the lag, nothing else. All the items/equipment in dks are all perfect and accessible to everyone. Cheap is just something we call when we dont like to fight it or cant counter it


    Broken? No. Broken was what magic shield was pre patch. Overpowered? Yes. DWGR is overpowered. From a basic statistical viewpoint, DWGR gives you what slightly less than 2 havels rings would in a single item slot. That makes the ring overpowered without ignoring the other benefits it gives you, like increased move and roll speed.
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:49 pm

    NO it gives the medium roll players a light roll and faster speed


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:50 pm

    Artorias wrote:NO it gives the medium roll players a light roll and faster speed

    What?
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:53 pm

    Huh you dont even no what you are talking about do you?


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:58 pm

    Artorias wrote:Huh you dont even no what you are talking about do you?

    You didnt quote anything i said so I have no idea what exactly youre refering to. But ill respond anyway.

    The ring increases fast roll speed, and medium run and roll speed. Those are bonuses added on to the fact that the ring STILL gives you slightly less than what 2 havels give you in terms of equip burden.

    So yes I do know what im talking about, I was confused as to what point you were trying to get at by correcting a tiny oversight I assumed was common knowledge. You know, that the ring designed to make MEDIUM wearers faster, affected mostly medium wearers. Regardless, youre still also partially wrong since it DOES increase fast roll speed as well and not just medium.
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:00 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Broken, cheap, and overpowered mean different things.

    Rapiers and backstabbs are broken because of the lag, they don't work as intended.

    Nothing is cheap as everything has a counter.

    The dwgr is overpowered, its sheer effectiveness eclipses that of any item with a similar effect by double or more and renders not using it a clear disadvantage for most builds.

    The dwgr isn't cheap, its op.

    Repost sorry, I hate being the end of a page and its my response to astorias.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:02 pm

    Rassa wrote:
    Artorias wrote:Huh you dont even no what you are talking about do you?

    You didnt quote anything i said so I have no idea what exactly youre refering to. But ill respond anyway.

    The ring increases fast roll speed, and medium run and roll speed. Those are bonuses added on to the fact that the ring STILL gives you slightly less than what 2 havels give you in terms of equip burden.

    So yes I do know what im talking about, I was confused as to what point you were trying to get at by correcting a tiny oversight I assumed was common knowledge. You know, that the ring designed to make MEDIUM wearers faster, affected mostly medium wearers. Regardless, youre still also partially wrong since it DOES increase fast roll speed as well and not just medium.
    No light roll and dwgr are more are less the same, i was referring to the part about the havels rings, the dwgr JUST increases speed for anything below 50% item burden. Not increasing it (the item burden).


    Last edited by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:02 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Broken, cheap, and overpowered mean different things.

    Rapiers and backstabbs are broken because of the lag, they don't work as intended.

    Nothing is cheap as everything has a counter.

    The dwgr is overpowered, its sheer effectiveness eclipses that of any item with a similar effect by double or more and renders not using it a clear disadvantage for most builds.

    The dwgr isn't cheap, its op.
    Sorry missed your post, it is not op it just gives players who are under 50% burden, the speed of under 25% burden in exchange for a ring slot.
    Also i know the backstabs are a bit messed because of the p2p system, but dont blame the game or player blame the online system itself.
    Also dex/int builds mostly dont use dwgr because the light roll is better and provides the same benifit.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:10 pm

    Artorias wrote:
    Rassa wrote:
    Artorias wrote:Huh you dont even no what you are talking about do you?

    You didnt quote anything i said so I have no idea what exactly youre refering to. But ill respond anyway.

    The ring increases fast roll speed, and medium run and roll speed. Those are bonuses added on to the fact that the ring STILL gives you slightly less than what 2 havels give you in terms of equip burden.

    So yes I do know what im talking about, I was confused as to what point you were trying to get at by correcting a tiny oversight I assumed was common knowledge. You know, that the ring designed to make MEDIUM wearers faster, affected mostly medium wearers. Regardless, youre still also partially wrong since it DOES increase fast roll speed as well and not just medium.
    No light roll and dwgr are more are less the same, i was referring to the part abiut the havels rings, the dwgr JUST increases speed for anything below 50% item burden. Not increasing it (the item burden).

    Right, so you acknowledge that havels and DWGR are items intended to produce the same result. Basically both of these items are intended to let the wearer jump from one equip burden bracket, to the next.

    DWGR increase your FAST roll equip weight to 50% instead of 25%. Havel's ring increase it to 37.5% instead of 25%. Making DWGR TWICE as powerful as Havels ring in terms of increasing item burden.

    What havel's ring does that DWGR can not, is transitioning a slow roller into a medium roller. However the issue with this, since item balance is only really important in competitive scenarios like PvP, slow and medium roll is just super unviable for PvP.

    So there is an unacknowledged difference between Havels and DWGR, but its almost irrelevant since the difference is impractical in a competitive sense.

    This all being said, once again DWGR gives you TWICE what havel's ring does with a single item slot and THEN it also increases movement speed and roll speed. I dont care if the fast roll is 5% worse than the DWGR roll. DWGR gives you a faster roll than the light roll. And it IS noticeable.
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:15 pm

    See but in practice the "allows medium equip burden fast movement" translates to a 25% bonus in fast roll equip weight limit. Useing all 3 of the other items to get a fast roll grants you a 22% bonus in fast roll equip weight limit.

    So, unless you intend to fatroll, the dwgr is always vastly superior to any equip burden altering gear and can be combined with said gear to allow a character with 50 end the ability to use the heaviest weapons and armor at the same time. So a character with 40 end, which is fairly standard, can wear whatever they want, use heavier weapons and sacrifice no stat points in other areas to do it.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Carphil on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:17 pm

    Check out this example: Players with 40 stamina and wearing full black knight armor should do the medium roll. With the havels ring, they will probably do the light roll. However, if they put on full giants armor, with the havels ring, they will do the medium roll. If that player put on Dark wood grain ring instead, it will do the light roll and run at full speed.

    Edit: Guys please keep this as a civil discussion, we don't need to turn this into trouble


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:18 pm

    Not really noticible difference in terms of speed. But People use havels ring so they can get from the fat roll to the medium and then use the dwgr to make into a light roll. DWGR does not increase item burden, it increases the bracket for light roll, besides havels ring is not only used for rolling you know...

    And pirate they have to sacrifice a ring slot though.

    And i'm done arguing here it is really getting boring and our opinions vary, and i dont want to hold a grudge against you guys and the same vice versa big grin cheers


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:29 pm

    Not a sacrifice if you lose nothing, thats the point. They "lose" a ring slot but what other ring is a melee build going to use? colathary, hornets, havels, and rofap are the other viable rings for a melee build? unless you are willing to sacrifice armor or stats it will almost always be dwgr+ 1.

    I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating mathematical fact and interpreting it using the other items as a benchmark.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:32 pm

    Artorias wrote:Not really noticible difference in terms of speed. But People use havels ring so they can get from the fat roll to the medium and then use the dwgr to make into a light roll. DWGR does not increase item burden, it increases the bracket for light roll, besides havels ring is not only used for rolling you know...

    And pirate they have to sacrifice a ring slot though.

    And i'm done arguing here it is really getting boring and our opinions vary, and i dont want to hold a grudge against you guys and the same vice versa big grin cheers


    Ill end it here as well with a closing statement. Players should never wear havels and DWGR for one reason. Wearing RoFAP and increasing your endurance above 40 and decreasing the amount of vitality you have almost always gives you MORE health and the fast roll to boot.

    In terms of competitive play which is wear this ring matters, if you arent min maxing youre probably not being seriously competitive. The issue is that EVERY player who min maxes HAS to take the ring because no ring in the game does what it does to the level that it does. That is basically the definition of an overpowered item.

    If you just sunbro it up and PVE, its irrelevant. PvE does not have competition, item balances are irrelevant. When you PvP competitively, you min max. What amount of stats will give me the best health, defense, and offense without gimping me. Most players wiggle a bit with this for style, I do as well. DSS is a terrible item in terms of weight, stat requirements, and power. I wear it anyway though. I wouldnt be able to win half of the fights i did with it w/o DWGR though. If i swapped DWGR with havels, Id pointlessly lose like 600 health, some odd amount of poise, and defense. Doesnt matter though. Im mostly steadfast against the item because the roll looks *** retarded and I cant stand feeling required to use it.
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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:43 pm

    Im sorry to reply but all of our arguments are completely relevant, its just based on how we perceive them, just the same as any argument.
    Bye and have a goodnight cheers
    I don't know if you played demon souls but the rolling system was completely fair, oh ya and remember to be on if you have it, to celebrate the last month


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Carphil on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:47 pm

    Demon's was so perfect, you had to choose armor OR fast roll sad


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:47 pm

    Math is not subject to your point of view, its universal and concrete, its the language of the universe, and it doesn't support your opinion.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Artorias on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:51 pm

    Your opinion does not need to be supported by anything as long as you are content with it. If it was supported it would be a fact.


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Carphil on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:52 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Math is not subject to your point of view, its universal and concrete, its the language of the universe, and it doesn't support your opinion.

    cool

    Anyway wanted to share that I preffer to use armor by looks and currently on my dex build I'm using wanderer set without the hood, and so I can use red tearstone and wolfs ring and still do the light roll. Fact is, I sacrifice defense, but my attack is improved. People who use heavy armor and dark wood ring preffer survival than damage output, see my point?


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    Re: OP rings: Covenant of Artorias

    Post by Rassa on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:52 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Math is not subject to your point of view, its universal and concrete, its the language of the universe, and it doesn't support your opinion.

    ^

    My point of PvE not being irrelevant isnt a perspective. PvE one player games are not competitive and item balances ARE irrelevant. When was the last time you played FF7 and was like MAN ULTIMA WEAPON IS SO BROKEN I WISH THEY NERFED THIS!!! Not saying one player games are balanced, im saying their balance issues dont really matter.

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