Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

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    Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:52 am

    I find that there is a common misconception about the Dark Souls story, it has to do with the fact you are the chosen undead.

    So to most you would think, "Awwh, so the prophecy pertains to me." The fact is. . . it doesn't, you're just another undead on a quest.

    Instead of there being a chosen undead there is the prophecy, it does not pertain to any single undead, it doesn't mean that there is one undead that will solve everything and it is pre-ordained who that is. . . Rather, it is more that whoever happens to finish the quest and usurp hollow Gwyn is the the chosen undead.

    This argument may be confusing to some. It's an argument of fate forcing you to do something or your free will eventually just aligning with fate.

    What made me consider this idea is whenever you made it to a point in the game where the story progressed with Fraampt or Gwynevere, generally they would be surprised that you returned.

    Fraampt tells you that you are in fact the chosen undead after ringing the bells, but upon returning with the lordvessel he is amazingly surprised. This is because there is no single chosen undead, simply a prophecy that motivates thousands of undead to embark on this epic quest which fraampt and other individuals see as necessary to kill Gwyn. This coalition promoting this chosen undead idea seem to instead actually just figure if they send enough undead out on this quest eventually one of the undead with their terrible odds will against all probability succeed.

    It just happens to be you.


    Last edited by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:56 am

    I can agree with that wholeheartedly. Another way to look at it is we're all "chosen undead." There's no "the" chosen one as we've all been chosen to attempt the quest. Based on the wonkiness of time and such in Lordran they've likely seen other's try lots of times before. Probably seen a lot of successes before too.

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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:58 am

    Ah but you see that is not neccesarily the case. You are the chosen undead. Frampt acts surprised that you made it back because he has seen so many failures over the years, undea who he thought were the chosen ones who didnt make it. When you return the vessel to him he states surprise and then says something like "it really is you". At that point he understands that you are not another failure, you are the real deal, the actual chosen undead.

    EDIT: What Im getting at is by obtaining the lordvessel you prove you are the chosen undead. You were it before, just nobody knew.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Sulfur on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:00 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Ah but you see that is not neccesarily the case. You are the chosen undead. Frampt acts surprised that you made it back because he has seen so many failures over the years, undea who he thought were the chosen ones who didnt make it. When you return the vessel to him he states surprise and then says something like "it really is you". At that point he understands that you are not another failure, you are the real deal, the actual chosen undead.

    EDIT: What Im getting at is by obtaining the lordvessel you prove you are the chosen undead. You were it before, just nobody knew.

    ^^^


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by neon__noodle on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:06 am

    I don't think you are necessarily the chosen one. Iron Tarkus and the Crest Knight and Siegmeyer are ask on the same quest. Oh, and maybe Solaire. Also consider all the souls you find: Soul of lost undead, of hero, of great hero. These are all people who went on the same quest.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:07 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Ah but you see that is not neccesarily the case. You are the chosen undead. Frampt acts surprised that you made it back because he has seen so many failures over the years, undea who he thought were the chosen ones who didnt make it. When you return the vessel to him he states surprise and then says something like "it really is you". At that point he understands that you are not another failure, you are the real deal, the actual chosen undead.

    EDIT: What Im getting at is by obtaining the lordvessel you prove you are the chosen undead. You were it before, just nobody knew.

    Then again he may just be excited to have found an undead who is seemingly powerful enough at this point. Because if the lordvessel really was a deciding factor then how could you explain if you decide to become a darkwraith he says, "you could not possibly be the chosen one."

    Past that it makes sense because you continue to see the dead bodies of other adventurers and also the entire PvP or CooP system fits with this idea as other undead of different time period who you warp time to fight with are also on this quest.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:18 am

    this touches on peoples belief about fate, and i think that was the point. You have to remember the forgotten(well known) pygmy, lots of people think that the chosen one(s) are of the same descent. Would that mean Tarkus and the other heros were somehow linked to the pygmy?possibly. I kinda agree that the chosen undead is just whatever undead is powerful enough to challenge gwyn. That being said i think Fromsoft left a lot of loose ends just so people could create their own story and "roleplay".
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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:20 am

    At your first poit because Frampt does not want to believe you are the chosen one. If you are it means he has spent a 1000 years waiting for someone only to have them betray him as soon as they could.

    On your second point note that 1. These are dead adventurers and 2. they;re not neccesarily adventurers. These place are really old. Its possible they are there from centuries ago and Lordrans mucked up time has stopped them decomposing. The PVP/Co-op system is not proof since these people are not rom your world. Solaire isnt even from your world, neither is Oscar. They, and all other players, are from their own worlds that have temporarily overlapped yours allowing people in the 2 to communicate.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:24 am

    But they are actually from your world, simply not the same time period. That is what soapstones warp, they show up in all past and future times when laid.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:36 am

    "Online play item. Leave summon sign.
    Be summoned to another world as a phantom through your sign, and defeat the area boss to acquire humanity.
    In Lordran, the flow of time is distorted, and the White Sign Soapstone allows Undead to assist one another."
    Be summoned to another world as a dark spirit, and defeat the summoner to acquire humanity.
    Certain Darkwraiths resist their descent into dark and preserve along the honorable path. The Red Soapstone is for them.
    "Online play item. Write/view/rate message.
    Messages transmit to other worlds, where they are rated. Also, rate messages of others.
    In Lordran, the flow of time is distorted, and messages allow Undead to assist (or deceive) one another."

    While it does talk about distorted time it makes SOOOO much more sense for it to be separate worlds. For example Oscar's story doesnt make sense unless he comes from a separate world.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:42 am

    I think that different world used within their descriptions is for game play purposes, where as the second phrase:

    "In Lordran, the flow of time is distorted, and the White Sign Soapstone allows Undead to assist one another."

    Is the true canonical impact of the item. The reason they need to say different world is because if they hadn't then players would be severely confused when they received soapstones for the first time and it said they were time traveling.

    Different world is to explain that you enter other player's on xbox live's games.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:50 am

    Then let me put this to you. If you have Solaire alive at the end of the game he links with the fire in his world. Thats confirmed by the director. How does he link with the fire in your world when you defeat Gwyn? Gwyn can only die once. he cant die in Solaires time and in your time.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:54 am

    Because for story reasons when you beat the game you are essentially the undead who finally killed Gwyn. The reason Solaire can link his fire within his world as well is because it is the same world where the fire is being linked. Just for Solaire it seems more immediate even though he is aiding you from the past simply because his past is actually very close to your present.

    This is why you often meet Solaire not as a phantom.

    Derp: This has become a time travel/alternate universe thread, expect it to get really confusing really fast.


    Last edited by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Derp)


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Yukon on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:58 am

    Its a little counter-intuitive, if they had different worlds doughboy, then soliare could not link the fire at all. He would have to share your world where gwyn was defeated in order to be able to link it in his time. Unless he killed gwyn himself in another world. So they have to be in the same place but at different times.

    This conversation is way too complicated you guys. haha.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:59 am

    Meeting Solaire as a non phantom doesnt mean his time is close to yours. As well if Solaire linked in his time why is he no longer at the kiln when you fight Gwyn?
    Yeah i had to read your post 3 times before I got it.

    @Yukon. because your world and his are overlapping when you kil gwyn in your world you actually kill gwyn in his world. Fo a short time there is only the wone gwyn residing in 2 worlds. That how he dies in Solaires world.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Zechk on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:13 pm

    This is a lore thread and belongs in the archives.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Yukon on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:20 pm

    Dough, that isn't really supported throughout the rest of the game, in any other case you fight a boss with a summon and they still have to kill the monster in their world. Why would Soliare be any different? The only logical way I can see him linking the fire is if he shares your world but exists after you or very near to you like Buggy said.

    'Another world' seems to be exclusive to the white and yellow phantoms you encounter and not the NPC's since your actions directly influence their game, but the same is not true of co-op.

    And the reason for that being-- atleast I believe-- is because real people playing, through co-op are probably farther apart in time (atleast in a gameplay sense) than the NPC's you encounter, so you can go through sens and kill gwyn etc and it won't affect the persons world who you do it with. But you cannot run through sens and not invite Seig to anor londo, your progress seems directly linked with the NPC's they don't move until you fulfill something in your world, so they must share it but be existing at a seperate time.

    Atleast thats what I think, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting they have their own worlds to me.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:25 pm

    Yukon wrote:Dough, that isn't really supported throughout the rest of the game, in any other case you fight a boss with a summon and they still have to kill the monster in their world. Why would Soliare be any different? The only logical way I can see him linking the fire is if he shares your world but exists after you or very near to you like Buggy said.

    'Another world' seems to be exclusive to the white and yellow phantoms you encounter and not the NPC's since your actions directly influence their game, but the same is not true of co-op.

    And the reason for that being-- atleast I believe-- is because real people playing, through co-op are probably farther apart in time (atleast in a gameplay sense) than the NPC's you encounter, so you can go through sens and kill gwyn etc and it won't affect the persons world who you do it with. But you cannot run through sens and not invite Seig to anor londo, your progress seems directly linked with the NPC's they don't move until you fulfill something in your world, so they must share it but be existing at a seperate time.

    Atleast thats what I think, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting they have their own worlds to me.

    Yukon, are you saying that NPCs are from your time or very close to your time, and that phantoms exist in completely different worlds?

    It seems to me that the NPCs that aren't phantoms reside directly within your time, and being that when they show up as phantoms, those are past or future versions of them. This means that even though they are phantoms they can't be from a different world, seeing as they inhabit your time and world at times. And since they inhabit your world that means that as phantoms they couldn't be world hopping, but they could be time hopping.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Yukon on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:33 pm

    BRRR, why did I step into this conversation so early in the morning.

    I think what I was trying to say was phantoms, as in other players are probably from "another world" rather than being ahead or behind or beside you in your timeline. Seeing as you can summon John3384 go kill gaping and then be summoned by John3384 to kill gaping in his world.

    But the same cannot be said of NPC, whether phantom or human. When you run into Seig in any of his problems for example, he has to be within your world of he wouldnt have his problems resloved by you all the time. (this is my opinion atleast) same for Lautrec, your actions directly influence their circumstances. So you must either share the same world, and I would like to assume the same time.

    Now, when you summon and NPC, I think you share their world, but perhaps not their time. Similar to how you can be pulled around by your own sign, you could be miles away from it and be brought back to the past (where you laid it before being summoned) to assist someone, only maybe NPC can do it to a greater extent, say years in the past.

    Most of this is just what I observed and took from it, so in no way do I consider myself 100% right, its just the way I see things.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by User on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:36 pm

    Phantoms do exist in different worlds, as they can live in the same time as you, or near so. The phantoms you encounter are from the past, possible present, and possibly even the future. As time is distorted, and time travel seems to be a key element of the flame of disparity, it can be said that the soapstones and orbs of the flame allow such availability of connection, as many are left alone in their own worlds.

    of course, the NPC phantoms are probably due to the past... except for Solaire. Solaire, as you may not know, has the Lava Ring equipped on him, even at the belfry gargoyles! I found this out when he fell on an enemy, and he caught on fire in undead parish (when I was hunting the drake in undead parish.... with little success).
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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:57 pm

    People are citing the fact that you can kill bosses within another phantoms world and then your own as proof that you are from different worlds. But isn't it possible that, like every other enemy you meet within the game and yourself, that these bosses are cursed to come back to life after having recuperated enough.

    Perhaps simply because bosses are so much larger and require a greater amount of souls to maintain they take an enormous amount of time to recuperate to the point that they finally come back after hundreds of years when a new undead seeks to defeat them.

    Another possibility would be that you are supposed to be the final and first person to defeat the particular bosses, and this is a story driven concept. Past that phantoms defeating the same bosses could instead simply be a gameplay mechanic that we are reading too much in to.

    I think it's likely this part of the story was never meant to go under this much scrutiny, and it will become more and more ambiguous and not line up as we look at it.

    But this seems to now be a debate as to whether phantoms are can be both from a different world and time, or whether they are simply a different time. Like I said earlier, I think the description saying that phantoms are from a different world is meant to help explain to those new to the game that you interact with other players on xbox live, because simply saying that it warps time would confuse those who haven't used it before being that you aren't in real life (as the player) time traveling.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by neon__noodle on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:39 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:Past that phantoms defeating the same bosses could instead simply be a gameplay mechanic that we are reading too much in to.


    I think this is really at the heart of the matter. While we can speculate about time travel and source code type theories or multiple dimensions, you cannot separate these ideas from the fact that we are talking about a game that needs to functionally similar if not identical for all players.

    Now let me backtrack. In one of the trailers there is a scene with both Oscar and Tarkus and what appears to be a cleric in the foreground. None of which are phantoms. So there is a seeming coexistence of heroes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsrNWNc2VCA


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Yukon on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:48 pm

    I believe the lady you are refering to is actually the firekeeper.

    That leads to a whole other can of worms if we take the meaning of this video as more than just "it looks cool, put it in the trailer" The firekeeper, tarkus and Oscar, somewhere between that scene your release the firekeeper was locked up, it its to be taken as plot.













    THIS POST IS EVIL >>>>>>



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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:25 pm

    Evil post is evil.

    Anyways, I think that heroes obviously co-exist, and that all non-phantoms are supposed to be in the exact same time and world as you (although I don't believe there are multiple worlds.) And if there aren't multiple worlds it is explained by the fact that they are simply a canonical quirk of each player whom are supposed to be the undead that finally kills Gwyn in there game, although every one does. It's for the sake of story.

    So really any time someone isn't a phantom, nothing is being distorted.

    Or maybe time can still be distorted, because soapstones state that Lordran warps time, not necessarily the soapstone.


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    Re: Common Misconception About Dark Souls Story, AKA most confusing thread ever

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:29 pm

    Who the hell gave Buggy an up rep? for the love of god people read his sig silly

    anyways, I agree with your OP Buggy, a lot of the story pertains to the fact that the chosen undead is only the lucky one who survives. However due to what I say next, it seems to me that in your world you are the one only chosen undead and other players are chosen in their worlds.

    Okay, with the soapstone thing and different worlds... Basically every undead who escapes from the asylum is along a different timeline in a different world to the other undead. This is why you don't just come across other player undead wandering around in your world, only hollows who have come from other lands. The soapstones and eye orbs allow you to travel as phantoms into others worlds and timelines.

    The time is distorted in lordran and i see it as pretty much everyone being in parallel worlds. You all experience the same things on your journey, and every person has the same road to walk down, but eahc does it in their own way to become the chosen undead.

    I'm now confused.. While it makes sense to say you are not the chosen undead in your world until you complete your journey, are you such as noone else can ring the bells? Does anyone else obtain the lordvessel? In this way I'm not sure if it is nothing more than just a title that attributes to a single person in each world. :|


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