Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

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    JoeBroski09
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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:33 am

    And there's a problem with your idea, BLA1NE. A log of AR is always going to be a bigger # the greater the AR, meaning that it's either a denominator below a variable multiplied by the defense, I don't think Log is implemented


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:34 am

    It's supposed to be a bigger number the bigger the AR. It just can't go above 1.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:35 am

    BLA1NE wrote:Damage blocked was always < Defense Rating. So, however log works, "logAR" needs to end up being a number <1.
    Which isn't in the right direction because the higher the AR, the higher the LogAR.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:35 am

    log can work with a constant/variable reducing the value. Im trying a few now.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:36 am

    joe if you look at it a higher AR produces a higher damg blocked so log AR does work.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:36 am

    DoughGuy wrote:log can work with a constant/variable reducing the value. Im trying a few now.
    That's what I was thinking. I think it may be in the denominator below a constant multiplied by the defense in order to "reduce" the defense. This reduction would then rely on the AR.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:37 am

    log(275)x138x27% = 91
    log(658)x138x0.335 = 130


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:38 am

    I guess I missed something, because you guys are talking about blocked. I thought you were talking about damage delt.

    And this is NOT about damage blocked. You're assuming that there's a direct correlation between AR and damage blocked, when, really, the formula takes the AR, the Damage dealt, and creates a #, that being damage dealt. It doesn't create a # that then takes away from the original AR. You're making it too hard on yourselves if you're thinking about damage blocked.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:39 am

    DoughGuy wrote:log(275)x138x27% = 91
    log(658)x138x0.335 = 130

    Where'd you get 27% and the 0.335?


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:40 am

    log(275)x418x21.3% = 217
    log(658)x418x23.3% = 275


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:40 am

    @Joe thats the number you have to multilpy it by to make it work. I simply found it. The trick is finding what makes those numbers.
    EDIT: BGut remember Im not using an xAR- blocked so those values could be a constant if ew find x.


    Last edited by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:41 am

    Where are you getting these %'s?! Am I missing something?


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:41 am

    DoughGuy wrote:@Joe thats the number you have to multilpy it by to make it work. I simply found it. The trick is finding what makes those numbers.
    So you're using guess and check? We need to use a system of equations in order to find what these variables are. To do so, we need to figure out a base formula and how many variables there are.

    Right now, you're just taking random formulas, then adding the # you need, which won't be the same unless you stumble upon it.


    Last edited by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:42 am

    Im making them up joe! just to make the equation work. To see if three was any value that fit all of them Check my edit.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:43 am

    Skyyyyyyyyyyyyype. This will be so much easier to talk. BLA1NE, PM me if you want to join in the convo on Skype. Please. That would be SO much easier.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:47 am

    No, I'm off to bed! But I think I've given you enough to build off of, Dough's on the right track. I think what Dough's getting at is that the formula is probably xAR - (logxAR)Def. If you plug some numbers in there, see if x works?

    Either way, glhf! I'll check back tomorrow.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:11 am

    We got close. Either that, or we eliminated one formula. We'll see. I'm about to go to bed and he's about to go to work. We'll get it. But not today, sadly.

    I think doughguy and I should get "Mathematician" as our title if we get this. Or something something something

    I'm pumped big grin I want to get this so bad.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by befowler on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:58 pm

    Ok, I had a weird one recently. Was cooping on my sl 139 int build. 50 int, dusk crown, bellowing dragon ring, and enchanted balder side sword +5. We get invaded and the invader is also wearing a dusk crown. When I landed a backstab on him with the enchanted BSS, it did 1190 damage - 100s more than I've ever had on anybody with a BSS w/o a hornet ring, including buffs. The guy was wearing armor and was presumably similar level as this didn't kill him, so his defenses should have been pretty good. Was this just because he was wearing the dusk crown so he took more magic damage (including weapon magic damage)? It was also more than I was doing with CSS and white dragon breath.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:10 pm

    Yeah, Dusk Crown seems a likely theory to me. It makes a significant difference in how much damage you take from magic, melee included. I remember pumping my magic defense in the Burg once because I was tired of SLB Darkmoons, and it drastically reduced the amount of damage I took from them. So the Dusk Crown was just doing the opposite.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by siegfried78 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:32 pm

    Just wanted to bump this thread to see if anyone is still working on this. Defense still seems a very obscure topic to me, even on the wiki. It is the proverbial final frontier of dark souls wikidom is it not?
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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:08 pm

    Nope thats the pendant silly
    No one is working on it atm, although I have a theory that I coul dtest out.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by siegfried78 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:53 pm

    Gah, I forgot about the stupid pendant LOL good point. What is your theory happy
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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:02 pm

    Well we know defence has diminishing returns. And w eknow logs give smaller values the larger numbers get. So something like the log(AR) of defence will give you theamount of damage blocked.
    SO I just got my calculator to test this. And nope, it doesnt work. Ok moving on.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Loken on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:28 am

    I have a question related to the damage modification of 2 handing.
    I know there probably a solid number on this but maybe you guys will have ideas anyway.

    If at +0 a weapon has 95% 2h modification and this diminishes as the weapon is upgraded does that mean special/demon/dragon weapons that only level 5 times would have more 2h damage modification than a +15 weapon? Or is the damage modification different from these types of weapons?

    It was theorized that 2 handing just adds damage equivalent to it's original base damage, but that doesn't seem right in practice.

    It's also possible that I'm mathematically stupid and I've read this data wrong.
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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:30 am

    2 handing a weapon increases your effective str by 1.5. So if you have 20 str and 2 hand a weapon it will act as if you have 30 str. It then depends on the weapons scaling what that does.


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