Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:31 am

    DoughGuy wrote:You know what we need to solve this? A base case where AR = DEF. That would really give us something to work with.
    Definitely. And a case where Def=0. Though, that would more confirm what we already assume.

    That, by using the additive identity, we can assume that it would be an addition formula.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:33 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Finally, notice how the damage of the small weapon (a mail breaker+15
    @40 Str/ 40 Dex) is more than divided in 3, whereas the damage from the
    large weapon (Great Club+15, same stats) isn't even cut in half. This
    explains why you need to look at damage blocked, rather than damage
    inflicted, to understand how damage is calculated in Dark Souls.
    I'm working at how the defense is reduced depending on how much AR the weapon has.

    See, I think I may have it.

    AR*x+Def*c*(AR/z)=Damage dealt

    This way, the higher the AR, the more the defense is reduced.


    Last edited by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:33 am

    Im getting clos results with (DEF/AR) = (blocked/taken) except for the low AR vs high def case.
    That cant work since the value will never be less than AR unless one of the constants is negative. Or x is a small fraction like 1/3 or 1/2.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:36 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Im getting clos results with (DEF/AR) = (blocked/taken) except for the low AR vs high def case.
    thats a unique way to look at it.

    They may have another set that says "If DEF/AR>C, use 'this formula'"

    As in, there's two equations depending on a certain limit.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:37 am

    yeah thats why we need more cases. Wanna pm bla1ne asking if he has more?


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:38 am

    Reim posted in another thread like 5 minutes ago that he has a bunch of other examples on his computer and that he'll upload it if we want. I said yes. He hasn't responded.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:40 am

    Well Ive got work in 1.5 hours. So lets ge5t cracking.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:44 am

    Just sent a PM to Reim. big grin


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:48 am

    There definitely has to be a key variable that is a multiplier of AR:

    Moveset

    1H/2H R1, 1H/2H R2, 1H/2H rolling-R1, 1H/2H running-R1 (same as backstep-R1), 1H/2H lunging forward-R2, 1H/2H special forward-R1 attacks, backstab, riposte, etc. would each have their own "x" value, multiplied with the AR, in order to determine base damage, before defense is factored in. That would explain why some weapons with the same AR do different damage, because their move have different AR multiplier values. There has to be this "x", because each move does a different amount of damage. The assumption is that this "x" can be different for corresponding moves on different weapons.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:49 am

    During these tests is the defence you posted the physical defence or the defencew against that attack type?


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:50 am

    I don't think the moveset of a Greataxe 1H R1 is different than a rapier 1H R1, variable-wise. I believe a greataxe has more AR than a rapier, and that's the variable. Though, we need cases of a weapon against no def to see what the different movesets do.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:53 am

    I don't know how help it could be, but a level 1 character with no gear or humanity would have the same melee defense as the AR of a fist.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:54 am

    ^This is why there probably is no way to get an exact defense=0 case. Which sucks... because that would help us figure out ANY variables connected directly to AR.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:58 am

    meant to say we do need to test 2 weapons with the same AR and same damage type against the hsame dfence. that way we know whether movesets have their own "x" or whether all 1h r1's have the same "x". They should also e from different weapon classes just to be sure.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:00 am

    DoughGuy wrote:meant to say we do need to test 2 weapons with the same AR and same damage type against the hsame dfence. that way we know whether movesets have their own "x" or whether all 1h r1's have the same "x". They should also e from different weapon classes just to be sure.

    This should work well for testing 1H. Quick to make a character to do this, as you only need to level up once.

    EDIT: Nevermind, forgot you want the same damage type. The defenses may be the same, but it might still be off due to another factor.

    EDIT 2: Try this one.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:04 am

    It's right there in my OP intro:

    To be perfectly frank, the numbers aren't as talkative as I'd like them to be. What I mean is: there are more inconsistencies than I would like. For example: two weapons that have almost the exact same AR, on the same defense, will have a greater variance in real damage vs two other weapons that have a greater difference in their AR.

    x would explain this. Have you all looked at Reim's spreadsheet? And even if X is the same for every weapon (doubtful), it's still different for each move, which is why a formula needs to include it.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:15 am

    I doubt it has anything at all to do with it, but this could test too see if upgrade path introduces any factors.

    EDIT: I'm stupid, it goes through two resistances. Of course it would be less. I have to do one where both are physical damage...


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:17 am

    We're trying to get his spredsheet. Well it actually doesnt matter that much since if its only x that changed we can still write a working formula.
    2 things to keep in mind. damage is never > than AR so for any formula it must always be less than AR.
    We really need a def 0 case.
    Also I really think my DEF/AR = blocked/inflicted could be true. Its really close for the numbers in the OP, I just need to know the exact defences for the damage types.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:18 am

    @Shkar we could use the mLGS vs something against defenes to see if that dsoes anything.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:22 am

    DoughGuy wrote:@Shkar we could use the mLGS vs something against defenes to see if that dsoes anything.

    I was trying to find two upgrade oaths for the same weapon with the same AR, that way the only variable was upgrade path. I'm enjoying to find scenarios like this.

    On a side note, a normal caestus ALWAYS does more damage then a crystal one (at least at max ranks). Same with Claws...


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:26 am

    Damage is sometimes greater than AR. 2H R2, for instance.

    I'd guess that a simple form of the formula would look something like this:

    xAR - ((logAR)def) = Damage

    xAR = the multiplier assigned to the weapon and its specific move, multiplied by the Attack Rating

    logAR = this is the part I'm really guessing on (which is why I colored it red). Since defense has diminishing returns, it's the opposite of an exponential form. The opposite of exponential is log, right? (Been a while for me!) Multiply it with the defense rating to figure out how much damage will be blocked.

    The equation is simply: figure out how much damage will be blocked, deduct it from xAR.

    Unknowns:
    - assuming logAR is the correct term, is it logAR or logxAR?
    - How the different defense types factor in (different attack types are calculated in separate equations, but I mean when more than 1 defense could be involved, like physical defense and, say, pierce defense). There's got to be more to it on the defense side than just logAR, but I wrote it like that to keep it simple.


    Edit:

    Or, even more simply: Damage = xAR - (yAR)DEF

    x = multiplier assigned to each weapon's every move
    AR = Attack Rating
    y = logarithmic function
    DEF = Defense Rating


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:30 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:28 am

    For base 10 you use log(AR) for e base use ln(AR)
    The thing is log will always be greater than 1, so that equation says the minimum blocked is the defense. DEF needs a constant 1> to balance it.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:32 am

    DoughGuy wrote:For base 10 you use log(AR) for e base use ln(AR)
    The thing is log will always be greater than 1, so that equation says the minimum blocked is the defense. DEF needs a constant 1> to balance it.

    It also could be Log base anything. Like log base defense. Ya know? This is going to be a bit of trouble. Though, I'm guessing the developers didn't have natural log in mind since idt they had extreme exponential growth with a limit in mind.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:33 am

    Just tried it and neither log nor ln have a variable that fits, they're close though. I think log is the right way to go we just need to figure out what we're missing.
    Crap it could be any base log. Unlikely but posssible.


    Last edited by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:33 am

    Damage blocked was always < Defense Rating. So, however log works, "logAR" needs to end up being a number <1.


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total


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