Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

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    Rynn
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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Rynn on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:32 am

    Tolvo wrote:So...What happens if you have an elemental weapon, that does say, slashing damage. Does the elemental go through slashing and lightning, or is it that the physical part goes through slashing, and the elemental goes through lightning?
    I don't even need to test that to reply, I'll just give an anecdote from the Dukes Archives.

    Magic, Fire, and Lightning Damage go through their respective defenses, and are not in any way touched by slash, strike, or pierce damage. You can test this on the crystal golems, which will reduce 247 magic damage to 43 magic damage consistently, with both a pierce and a slash "pure magic" weapons, Moonlight Butterfly Horn and the Greatsword made from Seaths tail.
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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:47 am

    Sorry guys for this question but I must ask this. Increasing 100 AR to a 500 AR weapon is not the same as increasing 100 AR to a 1000 AR weapon, right? In other words 100 AR is not a constant value. For example, if I get 30 more AR from CMW for a 1000 AR weapon is better than getting 30 AR for a 200 AR weapon. Am I correct?


    Last edited by WyrmHero on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:50 am

    Rynn wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:So...What happens if you have an elemental weapon, that does say, slashing damage. Does the elemental go through slashing and lightning, or is it that the physical part goes through slashing, and the elemental goes through lightning?
    I don't even need to test that to reply, I'll just give an anecdote from the Dukes Archives.

    Magic, Fire, and Lightning Damage go through their respective defenses, and are not in any way touched by slash, strike, or pierce damage. You can test this on the crystal golems, which will reduce 247 magic damage to 43 magic damage consistently, with both a pierce and a slash "pure magic" weapons, Moonlight Butterfly Horn and the Greatsword made from Seaths tail.

    Crystal golems have a weakness to strike weapon. I think the physical AR of an elemental weapon corresponds to its weapon type (slash, strike, thrust, regular). The elemental AR to the elemental defense.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:05 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:Sorry guys for this question but I must ask this. Increasing 100 AR to a 500 AR weapon is not the same as increasing 100 AR to a 1000 AR weapon, right? In other words 100 AR is not a constant value. For example, if I get 30 more AR from CMW for a 1000 AR weapon is better than getting 30 AR for a 200 AR weapon. Am I correct?
    Well... We've only started scratching the surface of how all those numbers work (AR, defense, etc), so it could be possible that AR isn't constant--sort of like how scaling letters aren't constant, they won't give the same bonus from one weapon to another. But for the sake of getting any sense out of these numbers, at the moment, I think it's best/ we need to assume that they're constant! So 300 AR on a shortsword is the same as 300 AR on a club, once you've factored the difference in attack types on the armor's defense.

    What I'm trying to say is: 1 AR = 1 AR, no matter what. Only difference is whether all your AR is one type (example: pure physical) or split (example: elemental weapons). Because in the case of split AR weapons, they get penalized more by defense, so if you look at their AR as a whole, you could say for every 1 AR that they're not worth the same as a pure weapons's 1 AR. But in the case of split attack type weapons, you really shouldn't be looking at the whole AR, but rather at multiple smaller AR, in which case, yes, their AR is worth the same as another weapon's AR.

    Example, to demonstrate what I clumsily tried to explain (these numbers are made up, because I don't have these hypothetical perfect numbers, but I'm pretty sure if we got more data, this is what it would show):

    - Imagine 3 weapons: 2 pure, 1 elemental. The first pure has an AR of 250, the second 500, and the elemental also 500.

    - Imagine an armor set that has the same defense values for all attack types, and attack it with your 3 weapons. The 250 AR weapon does 150 damage, the 500 AR weapon does 350, and the elemental does 300.

    - Now, when you look at these numbers, you may be inclined to think that AR is not a constant, since the 500 of the pure weapon does 350 damage and the 500 of the elemental does 300. But when you look at the elemental weapon's AR, not as 500, but as 250 physical and 250 elemental, then you can compare that with the pure 250 AR weapon, and you'll realize that AR is constant again.

    What isn't constant is the damage blocked by defense. As I explained in my OP, the higher AR you have, the less it will be blocked, point-for-point. I demonstrated this in my above example, also. The 250 AR weapon got 100 of it blocked and did 150 damage, whereas the 500 AR weapon got 150 blocked, to do 350 damage. The AR was doubled, but the damage blocked was not doubled, resulting in higher damage, point-for-point.


    My response was a bit scattered and drawn out because I didn't quite understand your question. So let me know if I didn't answer what you were trying to ask!


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:55 pm

    Well that was a good explanation. I think I understand that the higher the AR the less the damage blocked. I also understand very clear that elementals have to go thru 2 different defenses, causing more blocked AR. But if the higher the AR the lower the damage blocked....it means that 50 more AR on a 1000 AR weapon is much better than 50 more AR on a 100 AR.

    This is because at 1050 AR the damage blocked is less than at 150 AR, thus the increasing returns. So if we are using large weapons, 50 AR can really mean a difference in winning a battle or not.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:54 pm

    The simple answer is yes.

    The complicated answer is: depends how you get the extra 50 AR. If it's by splitting the damage, then probably no; if it's by switching weapons, then it depends on which weapon you're better with. But if you're equally proficient with both weapons, then yes you'll get more bang from the stronger one.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:02 am

    I started working on a formula, but I quit because I messed up and then I figured out how I MIGHT be able to find it, then I gave up. Because sometimes, math isn't that fun hahaha!

    Though, if any of you want to try it, this is the system of equation I was trying to use, but messed up because I was trying to solve it wrong hahaha!


    x, y, z = constants
    AR, DEF, Damage Dealt = variables

    AR/z(ARx+DEFy)=Damage Dealt


    Use 3 different examples, and you should be able to find the equation. Did anyone else try to solve it by using a system of 3 or more equations?


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:06 am

    I dont think that wll be ebough. I think the constants change depending on how large the variable sinvolved are.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:07 am

    DoughGuy wrote:I dont think that wll be ebough. I think the constants change depending on how large the variable sinvolved are.
    And that is why z is there.

    The AR is divided by that constant, and if the AR is large enough, it overcomes the.... I need to look at the math some more.

    EDIT: You're right. I got it wrong. That's what I get for trying to set up a system of equations in 5 minutes haha!

    I'm gonna think about this. I want to get it right. really bad.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:09 am

    Yeah I think your relationship is still a linear progression whereas this should be closer to exponential.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:15 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Yeah I think your relationship is still a linear progression whereas this should be closer to exponential.
    I was almost at exponential. But I just had it in my head wrong haha! It's not exactly exponential, but the increase of the damage should be dependent on itself, but by doing that the constant needs to divide by the AR, then multiply against itself.

    That's why I had the

    AR/z(AR*x) That should then become... AR^2*x/z. which wouldn't work. GAH! Exponential wouldn't exactly be it unless.. unless there's constants reducing the exponent..? Gosh. I wish I was in a higher math level. It's like, I can understand it, but I don't know how to GET there. I know where I need to go, now what steps do I need to use to get there, ya know? Gosh... *sigh* This won't stop bugging me.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:16 am

    JoeBroski09 wrote:
    x, y, z = constants
    AR, DEF, Damage Dealt = variables

    AR/z(ARx+DEFy)=Damage Dealt

    Well yeah, of course that's the equation the game uses unless you use the pendant.

    Of course, once you DO use the pendant, it of course switches over to the much simpler equation:

    damage = AR!


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:17 am

    Ok, so the higher the AR, the more it reduces the armor's ability to defend.... I'm going to build off of that...

    @Shkar You have no idea how wrong I got that. Now that I keep thinking about it, this is going to take more than a Calculus 1 level of learning. Which is fine. I learned all my math freestyle during the exams. I think I can do this... maybe.


    Last edited by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:18 am

    JoeBroski09 wrote:Ok, so the higher the AR, the more it reduces the armor's ability to defend.... I'm going to build off of that...

    That...actually makes it sound like a violent crime...

    "Ok, the more heavily armed the AR is, the more it can cow those easily manipulative bank-telling Armor to just surrender!"

    JoeBroski09 wrote:
    @Shkar You have no idea how wrong I got that. Now that I keep thinking about it, this is going to take more than a Calculus 1 level of learning. Which is fine. I learned all my math freestyle during the exams. I think I can do this... maybe.

    I was just joking. I'm not in a math class that advanced yet. I'm a natural at math, but I'm not in that big of a rush, so just AP Calculus before college.


    Last edited by Shkar on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:20 am

    Well lets look at the examples.
    Just a quick idea it looks like when AR > Def (Def/Ar) * DEF = dmage blocked


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:21 am

    Im too tired to do real maths atm. When i start studying for my exam Ill make a formula for it.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:21 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Well lets look at the examples.
    Just a quick idea it looks like when AR > Def (Def/Ar) * DEF = dmage blocked
    I think it'd be easier to go for Damage Dealt.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:22 am

    yeah thgat formula doesnt really work.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:24 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Im too tired to do real maths atm. When i start studying for my exam Ill make a formula for it.
    ... What math level you at? :face:

    Honestly, I'm only 17, so I've done calculus. But I skipped College Algebra and Trig. I got a B-, which is average. So, I went back and I got an A in College Alg, and I'm about to get an A in trig. I'm super proud of being able to be average while skipping 2 math levels, but I'm still not where I want to be (Calc III+)


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:25 am

    Only first year maths but Im really good at mathematics.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:26 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Only first year maths but Im really good at mathematics.
    You and I should hang out sometime... and have a beer. Maybe make love. You know.. See what happens. winking

    I always take it too far, but you know what I mean.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:28 am

    I live is Aus, might be hard to hang out.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:29 am

    DoughGuy wrote:I live is Aus, might be hard to hang out.
    ... no :no:
    You don't mean that.

    Someday... if anything, voice chat during a war or something something something


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:30 am

    You know what we need to solve this? A base case where AR = DEF. That would really give us something to work with.


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    Re: Attack Rating vs Real Damage: Analysis of Defense

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:31 am

    Finally, notice how the damage of the small weapon (a mail breaker+15
    @40 Str/ 40 Dex) is more than divided in 3, whereas the damage from the
    large weapon (Great Club+15, same stats) isn't even cut in half. This
    explains why you need to look at damage blocked, rather than damage
    inflicted, to understand how damage is calculated in Dark Souls.


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