Magical theory 201

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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:39 pm

    The air. Heat in the air and general electrical charge. Heat is just energy si you convert it into a push pull force while lightning spear is just a bigger version of running your feet on the carpet and zapping someone.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:56 am

    >_> then the cleric armor must have carpeting and solaire must be extremely hairy


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:57 am

    He does have a moustache.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:58 am

    Lightning spears, created with the power of mustache static.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Imarreteet23 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:00 am

    Now I can justify growing a mustache. Awwwwww yeeeeaaaaahhh.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:02 am

    If you look closely you can see the electrical discharge flowing from his stache to his hands.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:54 am

    Wonder what a full beard does? Peels off dragon scales. Just ask Gwyn

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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Shkar on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:25 am

    DoughGuy wrote:The air. Heat in the air and general electrical
    charge. Heat is just energy si you convert it into a push pull force
    while lightning spear is just a bigger version of running your feet on
    the carpet and zapping someone.

    No offense, but there are some issues with your theories (I love the topic of the science of magic, always have).

    1. To get the energy for that, something else has to lose it. So for
    every pyromancy spell you use, you drop the temperature of surrounding
    air down to dangerous levels (If you raise the heat of the fire (the
    air, that is) up 500 degrees, you have to drop the same amount of air
    500 degrees as well.

    2. Electricity is essentially the "flow" of electrons, so in order to
    create a lightning spear, you would need to strip a TON of electrons
    away from their natural state. This would break apart most compounds in
    the area (assuming you took electrons from them).

    3. Converting heat into kinetic energy would be terribly inefficient.
    Assuming you can only reach a short distance to grab the energy, you
    would chill the air to lethal levels before you got to a dangerous
    force.

    4. Increasing the rate of absorption of nutrients wouldn't be able to
    heal wounds. Cells can still only divide so quickly, and they are what
    heals wounds.

    5. While I can't claim to know the base truths of gravity (Nobody does. they don't know how gravity works.), to the best of my knowledge there would be no real way to affect gravity too any usable extent in the game.


    Now, all the science I talked about is too the best of my knowledge. I'm not even in college yet, but I did get a 36 on the Science ACT, so I'm not completely clueless happy
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:04 am

    While those are good points you are missing one thing. This is magic. This makes the inefficient efficient, this allows the supernatural to happen. While it uses physics it needs not obey physics. It can also surpas our knowledge and do things we do not believe posssible. Whiel using real world knowledge as a base is a good idea, trying to explain it with only real world physics is futile and will not work.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:17 am

    How does one go about quantifying magic though. The answer could be life force. This is coming from Carmina's Power Within, which actively uses the casters life force to increase damage. There is the possibility that the source of life, the soul, is the currency to actually bend the rules of physics.

    Then again I could be mad due to the fact I'm typing this with little to no sleep and on my iPod.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:06 am

    Magic is the ability to modify energy and matter in ways that would not be possible without it.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Shkar on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:21 am

    DoughGuy wrote:While those are good points you are missing one thing. This is magic. This makes the inefficient efficient, this allows the supernatural to happen. While it uses physics it needs not obey physics. It can also surpas our knowledge and do things we do not believe posssible. Whiel using real world knowledge as a base is a good idea, trying to explain it with only real world physics is futile and will not work.

    If magic truly followed no physics, if it truly followed no rules, it would be impossible to control. Since every fantasy game/story shows magic as being repeatable (we can be tought how to throw fireballs), then that means that magic IS based off science. While it is possible that the magic uses slight amounts of the soul for energy, or some other supernatural source, that magic is still coming from somewhere.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 am

    Im afraid you're wrong. Magic follows rules, but it follows its own rules determined by the world it exists in. Magic uses science as a base and is shaped by its own set of rules.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:34 am

    Shkar, I like the science and can agree to both sides. Science can help to explain it but magic would likely have at least wonky rules to follow. One of your key points is "where does the energy come from?" Great question. You assume that the energy is drawn quite locally. So if you heated x units of air up 500 degrees that means x units has to be cooled and likely be just as dangerous (if not more so) than the heated air. However, in pure energy form the speed would approach the speed of light. Therefore, energy could be amassed from a much larger pool. For example, I heat x units of air to 500 degrees higher. Nah.....let's go lava.....I heat x units of air up 5000 degrees to make super intense lava. The area of air I heat is approximately 1 cubic yard/meter, whatever unit you like they're pretty similar and about accurate for our theory. If I draw energy from 5,000 cubic yards/meters I would lower the ambient temperature in this area by only 1 degree (assuming perfect energy transfer). Assume 50% energy transfer and up it to 10,000 units of air cooled by 1 degree. To have a space with 10,000 units of air we would only need to draw from a 3d cube of less than 22 units in each dimension or a sphere around us of less than 13 units radius. So to cast my spell raising the 1 cubic yard mass by 5,000 degrees I would lower everything around me 13 yards (39 feet) away by only one degree which would barely be noticeable. From 13 yards away, energy transfer could easily occur in the casting time. Similarities between kinetic energy apply here.

    Regarding electron flows I would have to say "its magic that's why"

    Gravity need not be affected and evidence indicates it may not be. Attack speed isn't affected, only walking/running.rolling. It could a local "muck" that stays near the ground, like magic tar. Or the miracle could be psychologically based, by offering a strong power of suggestion that running and rolling can't be performed. That makes a certain sense as it's local to the caster not an area itself and the user is unaffected. Kind of like jedi mind tricks.

    Healing spells? "it's a friggin miracle!" or possible a local time travel, the wounded area moves backward in time repairing the damage......I really got nothing on that one.

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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:45 pm

    Here's an analogy I thought of last night. Shkar you are thinking of it this way - Lets says maths is what you're calling science and physics is magic. Maths has all these rules governing its use. Physics is separate from maths, however all physic's rules are made using mathematical formulae. However the truth iss physics is science while maths is the magic. Maths has rules that govern physics but it also has rules that govern itself separately that do not affect physics.

    Hopefully you can understand that.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Shkar on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:11 pm

    I apologize for how it seemed, I have been getting little sleep the last few days.

    The main point I was getting at was that the magic has to follow rules. If you just point at something and explain, "because it's magic", then you could point at ANYTHING and say "Magic". We would be talking about a world where you could be right about to kill Gwyn, and he slaps you with a salmon, turns you into a crow, and teleports you to the MLP universe.

    I hadn't actually gone through an measured the heat exchange necessary (volume of air needed, that is). Your math makes sense, but you are probably basing your numbers off, say, fireball, no? I had been personally thinking more along the lines of Fire Tempest, which seems too push the boundary of control (Only larger area spell is GGSDance, correct?).

    There are tons of things you can point at to explain issues like this. Whether the spells use soul energy, draws power from the gods, etc etc. It IS still magic. I"m just saying you can't just use that as an excuse too have anything happen, which I believe is something we can all agree on, no?


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 pm

    Shkar wrote:I apologize for how it seemed, I have been getting little sleep the last few days.

    The main point I was getting at was that the magic has to follow rules. If you just point at something and explain, "because it's magic", then you could point at ANYTHING and say "Magic". We would be talking about a world where you could be right about to kill Gwyn, and he slaps you with a salmon, turns you into a crow, and teleports you to the MLP universe.

    I hadn't actually gone through an measured the heat exchange necessary (volume of air needed, that is). Your math makes sense, but you are probably basing your numbers off, say, fireball, no? I had been personally thinking more along the lines of Fire Tempest, which seems too push the boundary of control (Only larger area spell is GGSDance, correct?).

    There are tons of things you can point at to explain issues like this. Whether the spells use soul energy, draws power from the gods, etc etc. It IS still magic. I"m just saying you can't just use that as an excuse too have anything happen, which I believe is something we can all agree on, no?

    I too agree that it has to have rules. You are correct there. But what we are saying is that we dont know what those rules are. The rules are obviously large yet simple. ALso note that the rules for miracles do not have to be the same as the rules for pyromacy granting greater fliexibility in how we define these things. What Skare says about the speed of light is good. Think about the casting time of a spell. You have that long to draw heat/electricity/etc from an area of c * s. SO if fire tempest takes 3 seconds to cast you can draw minimal amounts of heat from c*3m away.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Shkar on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:22 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:
    Shkar wrote:I apologize for how it seemed, I have been getting little sleep the last few days.

    The main point I was getting at was that the magic has to follow rules. If you just point at something and explain, "because it's magic", then you could point at ANYTHING and say "Magic". We would be talking about a world where you could be right about to kill Gwyn, and he slaps you with a salmon, turns you into a crow, and teleports you to the MLP universe.

    I hadn't actually gone through an measured the heat exchange necessary (volume of air needed, that is). Your math makes sense, but you are probably basing your numbers off, say, fireball, no? I had been personally thinking more along the lines of Fire Tempest, which seems too push the boundary of control (Only larger area spell is GGSDance, correct?).

    There are tons of things you can point at to explain issues like this. Whether the spells use soul energy, draws power from the gods, etc etc. It IS still magic. I"m just saying you can't just use that as an excuse too have anything happen, which I believe is something we can all agree on, no?

    I too agree that it has to have rules. You are correct there. But what we are saying is that we dont know what those rules are. The rules are obviously large yet simple. ALso note that the rules for miracles do not have to be the same as the rules for pyromacy granting greater fliexibility in how we define these things. What Skare says about the speed of light is good. Think about the casting time of a spell. You have that long to draw heat/electricity/etc from an area of c * s. SO if fire tempest takes 3 seconds to cast you can draw minimal amounts of heat from c*3m away.

    Personally, since magic is based on skill ( My guess as to what increasing your Fth/Int is, your "experience" casting that type of magic), I would think that there would be some sort of maximum distance you could exert/control that energy. I could be wrong of course, but It just doesn't seem like there would be no outer limit.

    And yes, the magic would have different rules. I completely agree; pyromancy requires attunement to nature, so it probably draws from tectonic energy or some such.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:23 pm

    Lol. I think we all agree. Shkar, yeah that was meant more for fireball but also general principle. I dont think we can make any direct correlation I'm with everyone else there are rules it follows.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:32 am

    Just gave cloud +1 because the last time I tried to I was out of votes.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:38 pm

    How does I shot Iron Flesh?
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:39 pm

    You mean how does it work? If you've ever seen Fullmetal Alchemist's greed, I'd imagine it works like that.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:41 pm

    That Pyromancy just always struck me as being the most outlandish.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:44 pm

    It would have made sense if your skin either darkened or became more crystal like. It hardens the carbon of the body I believe. Dunno why you become the silver surfer >_>


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Shkar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:32 pm

    Tolvo wrote:How does I shot Iron Flesh?

    personally, I picture it as a coating of hardened magic on the skin. THe slowness isn't so much weight, as it is becoming much less "flexible".

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