Magical theory 201

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    Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:43 pm

    Welcome students, to Magic Theory. In this class we will discuss the use of, the idea behind, and the reason for various spells, miracles, and pyromancies. And while I am no Master Logan, Solomon, or Havel, I do have my own speculation on the workings of each magic.

    Teacher's lectures

    Pyromancy 1a:
    Spoiler:
    Let's begin with my personal favorite, and the most readily available, Pyromancy. Pyromancy was born after the witch of Izalith became the bed of chaos. It's creator was one of her surviving daughters, Quelana. There is no real set way to come across her, though consensus is that a flame at +10 is a guaranteed way to meet her. When you do, you learn from her a variety of fires, from the simple combustion spells, the powerful fireball spells, and the bizarre undead rapport spell. Her greatest student Solomon's legacy is his great fireball spell, not much to say except it's a very destructive spell. However, Solomon's pupil Carmina used pyromancy for a different purpose.

    Carmina's spells focused on the inner self. A bit strange, till you think of the flame. All magics require a catalyst, an object to channel the spell. Sorcery uses catalysts, rods of varying sizes and usually made from an organic material. The faithful have talismans, pieces of bound cloth that the user seems to pray too. And Pyromancers have the Pyromancy flame, a fire they hold dear and nurture.

    Pyromancy doesn't scale with any stat til it's acended by Quelana. In order to have more powerful fires, you must level the flame. Carmina's spells are about the unification of pyromancer and flame, with the one spell not passed to Laurentias being Power Within, a self-destructive spell. It's the one class of magic that can be seen as a natural magic born of the world.

    Seath 1

    Spoiler:
    Seath is an underhanded, selfish creature. Everything he did was for his own gain. The betrayal of his kin out of jealousy, the kidnapping of maidens for experiments. Even his status of duke is beneficial, his being apart of Gwyn's court allowing him sway with the gods. It wouldn't be far fetched that he would use Gwyn's absence as a chance to build an army to take the world in his claws.

    But Seath has one major flaw. His obsession with living forever, both from his being an outcast among his kin, and possibly a fear of Nito. By the time you see the Primordial Crystal, it is held within a protected cavern within his home, at the very depths an extremely fragile object. Maybe as he continued to live off the crystal's power it was starting to weaken.

    Tolvo: Huge speculation/Crazy/insane idea, but what if actually the Dragons weren't all that bad? They looked over humanity worried about them destroying themselves, trying to keep them low and weak so they could never cause self harm. Hiding away secrets too powerful ever for the minds of these beings, such as the Crystal. And that Seath actually helped cause the war, he wanted it for himself and used it as a guise to establish his position, give him time to research, and safety from any possible enemies with his new allies. If this were the case, the dragons would be right. Because of humans there are demons, undead curses, poisoned and tainted areas, beings of wicked and malevolant magic and design. Truly, what if some of the greatest heroes in Dark Souls were the dragons who looked over humanity?

    Dough Guy: Im inclined to agree because for goodness knows how long before the first flame was lit the humans and dragons lived side by side without bloodshed. However I cant see Seath starting the war. the first flame started the war, I think Seath just saw an opportunity and took it.

    Tolvo: That is possible as well, though I do feel inclined to believe that he at least helped the cause with some propaganda. As well, imagine if anyone ever tried to contest his position. He was the only "Good" dragon who was willing to see past the tyrannical rule of his people, fighting to save the race of humanity and bring forth the age of man. Damn, he's either the greatest warmongering in Dark Souls, or the Greatest Opportunist.

    Spell checklist:

    Great/Soul arrow
    Great/Heavy Soul arrow
    Crystal/Homing soulmass
    Hush
    Cast Light
    Crystal/Soul spear
    Crystal/Great/Magic Weapon
    Remedy
    Resist Curse
    Repair
    Hidden body/wweapon
    Chameleon
    Strong/Magic shield
    Aurul Decoy
    White dragon breath
    Fall control

    Fireball
    Fire Orb
    Great Fireball
    Flash Sweat
    Great/Combustion
    Chaos/Firewhip
    Fire Surge
    Acid Surge
    Chaos/Firestorm
    Great Chaos Fireball
    Fire Tempest
    Poewr within
    Iron flesh
    Poison Mist
    Toxic Mist
    Undead Rapport

    Force
    Spoiler:
    skarekrow13 wrote:Ok....time for my independent study findings. I hope to be able to do these daily during lunch break. For today's project, a single miracle (that works out perfect with today's topic):

    Force, from the wiki-"Common miracle among cleric knights. Create shockwave.
    This quickly-acting miracle inflicts no damage, but propels foes
    back and defends against arrows. Cleric knights use this miracle when
    charging into enemy mobs."

    The low faith requirement for this miracle (12) means that anyone with basic belief can learn to use this at will. The number of uses (21) suggests that the user was not meant to be shy about spamming and constant use. This miracle has an overt lack of subtlety as well. It is merely a blast of energy that does what all blasts do...push things around. The lack of damage output shows that, in addition to being common it is a basic miracle.

    The real question with this is....why am I talking about all that like you didn't already know all of this?
    I believe that this miracle has a purpose beside the mere fact that it pushes things around. What differentiates a cleric knight from a regular knight? Faith. Where does faith come from? It starts in the self and roots into the spirit. However, faith is not a singular beast and can take many forms and sizes. I posit that force was used to indoctrinate knights into the role of clerics. Knights with a small amount of faith could be shown how to perform this miracle easily and in large numbers. Knights who demonstrated an increased interest or aptitude for this miracle could then be taught more complex ones. The act of learning this miracle would itself lend the user to have more faith..."I used to have to push things with my hands and along comes a priest, and with the will of God I can do this!!! Sweet!" Simply stated, when evidence of God has been provided, it removes some doubt and allows faith to grow. So my theory is that Force is a gateway miracle that leads to the use (and later abuse) of harder, more serious miracles.

    In addition to assisting in the initiation of knights into the religious order and the battle uses, this spell would have been a great diplomatic thing to know. Imagine how quickly arguments amongst the rabble could be quieted with a quick blast of "mostly harmless" (second time I've used that reference on the sly) Force. As knights in general were intended to protect their land, a land, etc. they could keep the peace with medieval less than lethal technology. Verily, Force was the shotgun loaded with bean bags of the day!

    Emit Force
    Wrath of the Gods
    Heal
    Great Heal
    Great heal excerpt
    Soothing Sunlight
    Bountiful Sunlight
    Replenishment
    Great/Lightning Spear
    Sunlight Spear
    Homeward
    Great/Magic barrier
    Seek Guidance
    Karmic Justice
    Darkmoon Blade
    Tranquil walk of peace
    Vow of Silence
    Gravelord Great/Sword dance
    Sunlight blade

    End of Class 1 summary:
    Spoiler:

    For Miracles: Miracles are a magic based from either prayers, chants, or mantras that grant strength and abilities, and require a talisman to commune with. Talismans are more powerful when they are blessed by higher beings.

    For Sorcery: The Vinhelm school may be a military trainer of sorts. Sorcery of Vinhelm may or may not use the soul of the caster as it's source. Catalysts for Sorcery grow more powerful from age and use, and may have originally been made from the great Archtrees. There is some correlation between the soul, sorcery, and crystals. It is on the sorcerer to shape his magic, that is why he needs to be smart.

    For Pyromancy: The art is a very bizarre magic, with it's focus on the world around you and the inner self. To share the flame is to share a bond. The pyromancer shapes the flame themself to use it, and the flame draws from either their own humanity, or the humanity they have collected, depending on what spell they cast.

    General/off-topic: The Path of the Dragon Covenant uses a pair of stones that can be considered a sort of Catalyst.

    End of Class 2 Summary:
    Spoiler:
    Seath, the grandfather of sorcery. Turncoat. Albino. Truly a magnificent, malicious, unsavory character. Many theories stem from his collecting of maiden's, his strange crystalline guards, and his strange powers born of the Primordial crystal.

    What could he be doing with this artifact? Could he have been using as a catalyst. To become a living catalyst? Maybe he is creating an army? From his appearance he has chosen to use crystal scales in place of the proper scales he was born without. His magic is also connected to crystals, which are able to curse his enemies, most likely to harvest the bits of the soul that remain in the stone corpse. Seath was extremely close to his goal of immortality, but at the end of his life he was felled by an undead who destroyed his life's work.

    This is why you are all here, to dissect the magical lore and come up with these theories. We will return to this peculiar beast at a later date, but for now we can conclude this. His allegiance is to his self. Seath may be the greatest opportunists.

    End of Class 3 summary:
    Spoiler:
    DoughGuy wrote:Just as Seath is the father of sorcery Allfather Lloyd is the father of miracles. The miracle force is likely an indoctrination technique used by the WoW to convince young knights to join their cleric knight order. This works by showing them with enough faith they can have the gods power work thorugh them thus convincing them of gods existence. Some miracles, such as force or lightning spear, have a small connection to manipulating physics.

    Miracles work by causing a physical change in the environment through the rigorous belief of the caster. With enough faith the caster can draw upon the origin of the miracles story and replicate the act by using their knowledge of the story and their own will to shape th energy around them into the original act.

    It must also be noted that some minor miracles draaw upon larger more epic miracles. These minor miracles are simply shorter versions of the epic and thus only have a smaller effect.

    End of class 3 summary
    Spoiler:
    Who is Beatrice? A ancient rogue witch who has ties to Artorias the Abysswalker, Seeker Logan, the 4 kings, and even Seath the scaleless. She fights the Moonlight Butterfly in Darkroot, that guards the divine ember and may have scorched her land. She's able to fight the 4 kings in the abyss, which leads to the idea that she and Artorias held a covenant of sorts. She wields soul magics that was pioneered by the great seeker, but is not of Vinheim. Found is her body in the Valley of Drakes, felled after her own attempt at defeating the 4 kings.

    These ties go unexplained, but we will speculate until something about her is confirmed.

    skarekrow13 wrote:Wild speculation engage!

    The only other figure tied to Darkroot and the Abyss is Artorias.....a few thoughts in light of Beatrice, Teen Pop Sensation's info. Beatrice is perhaps able to walk the Abyss without the aid of the ring or us. Artorias seems to need the ring. From our in game experiences we see we only need to wear the ring while the Four Kings are there. The ring's only purpose appears to be to meet the Kings and in our case kill them. Plastic sheets ready for a blown mind? I don't think Artorias' covenant was in favor of the Four Kings in the state we find them. The other Abyss walker, Beatrice is hostile to the Kings. Our only use of the ring is hostile to the Kings. Was the ring made solely to hunt these guys down? Is the covenant a pledge to stop them if they go mad? Did Beatrice make the ring? Is it a wedding band for Artorias? She knows how to walk around the Abyss without it but surely would want help against these foes. Did Artorias, Kaathe and Beatrice conspire against Gwyn's chosen lords of New Londo?

    Truly an amazing individual who like Artorias, The god of war, and the furtive pygmy, has a history that is lost in the annuls known as Lordran, and who's character leads many going hollow just to find more about her.

    I thank skarekrow13 for digging up Information on Beatrice, and am glad our dear friend hasn't lost his mind in his lore hunts. Gods speed to you, you magnificent SoB.


    Last edited by cloudyeki on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:29 pm; edited 8 times in total


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:32 pm

    Also if you notice, Pyromancy actually existed before the Flame of Chaos, in the form of sorcery. They actually used Catalysts to cast their fire based spells, would this mean that there is a way for sorcery to surpass the need for Catalysts? You can see this in creatures that naturally use magic, so might this be possible? Actually in the Channellers I believe this is seen, as their casting doesn't involve their trident, rather they use their hands and arms in a prayer like manner. So much to talk about when it comes to magic really. bounce
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:40 pm

    Aye, but that might be more Seaths doing. If your close enough to a channeler as he casts, you can hear a chant or prayer. There soul arrows could be a combination of faith and sorcery if that's the case.

    Magic is an unnatural occurrence. It requires a great power or a catalyst to use. Even pyromancy, though a seemingly natural sort, requires a magical flame that was born of the daughter of chaos. The only natural one I can think of is Oolacile's light manipulating magic.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:47 pm

    I've also always related each to an aspect. Socery, the Soul. Flame, humanity. And then Miracle, I'm not entirely sure. Would it merely be drawn from other beings? Or are miracles of time, they use stories of old and possibly new to cast, I've always been curious about Miracles in that regard.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:54 pm

    Intermediate class? I missed a semester, crap. Good thread idea. Will have to do research. Magic is not my major

    My interpretation is they all derive from will. Sorcery is will of the mind, miracles are will of devotion and pyromancy is will of spirit or passion

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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:04 pm

    Hm, Miracles are nit my forte. However, I can say a good theory behind Miracles is the act invoking a higher power. Miracles are some of the more numerous type, but also with more restrictions than either soul magic or pyromancy. To use certain miracles, you have to be in a certain covenant, a certain rank, and have the required faith. My theory is the talisman is an item used to commune with and seek help from the gods.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:11 pm

    I've always figured it actually took advantage of the time distortion. The idea of them chanting and using stories, as if they draw upon that instance in time where something was used or done, like they are drawing on power from a place and time rather than just a god or powerful being.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:12 pm

    I'm not quite sure what you are asking for here but these may help. First is a link to another thread about magic (though judgnign by the fact this is 201 you probably saw it). The second is my personal theories on the magics that I posted in that thread.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t2538-magic-miracles-and-pyromancies

    Spoiler:
    Miracles are stories about saints and the like. By reading part of the
    story a personof sufficient faith can draw power from the story in the
    form of energy and use this to perform various tasks. Each story is nly
    so long and needs a certain length to be readfor the reader to gain its
    power. Thus their is a limit on the nmber of casting per resting.

    Pyromancy
    draws on the power of the first flame and the chaos flame through
    thepyromancers own inner flame. The person can only draw so much of
    each power through their own flame before the flame is exhausted.
    Resting at a bonfire refills the flames reserves and allows new castngs.
    The chaos pyromancies draw upon the chaos flame whilethe normal
    pyromancies draw upon the first flame. upgrading the casters own flame
    increases the amount of flame they can draw BUT the flames are more
    powerful cancelling this out.

    Sorcery is the tricky one. Sorcery
    seems to be the mainpulation of energy (be it inetic for the arrows or
    light for the Oocalile sorceries) into a form that can be utilised by
    the caster. owever each manipulation drains the casters own reserves.
    It draws this energy from the surroundings through the casters force of
    will. However this is mentally tiring and cannot be done indefinitely.
    resting at a bonfire refreshes the casters mind. A high intelligence
    increases the casters mental resreves.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:14 pm

    I don't think miracles draw upon the gods but the gods deeds. When you read the story you arent asking the god for help, you're recreating a physical manifestation of their deed and bringing into the world.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:16 pm

    That's exactly what I said.

    EDIT: But you worded it better haha.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:18 pm

    Haha, now I reread it I see you did say that. Oops.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Imarreteet23 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:19 pm

    I like your theories on sorcery and pyromancy Dough, but i always though that miracles was people beseeching the gods to preform certain "miracles," for lack of a better term. And the tailisman was a way to commune with said gods.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:22 pm

    But, how would you use spells of gods who are dead? As well, Havel has created a miracle, so what does that mean?
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:27 pm

    Havel was the uncle of gwyn, he could have talked with him and devised it.

    Also,I forgot one last form of magic that most don't even think of. Magic of the everlasting dragon, who lives in ashlake


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Imarreteet23 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 pm

    Tolvo wrote:But, how would you use spells of gods who are dead? As well, Havel has created a miracle, so what does that mean?
    Well, i didnt mean gods like gwyndolin or gwynevere. I dont think that people like that are literally gods, but more of people with extreme power. Anyways, you are right about Havel, there is no way to explain that using my theory unless it means that he created a prayer to a god. If not, then i'm cluless.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:32 pm

    cloudyeki wrote:Havel was the uncle of gwyn, he could have talked with him and devised it.

    Also,I forgot one last form of magic that most don't even think of. Magic of the everlasting dragon, who lives in ashlake

    Allfather Lloyd is Gwyns uncle, Havel is just his friend.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:41 pm

    Going from a religious sense, miracles aren't always intervention from or directly from a god. Miracles are representation often of love or devotion to a god or cause. Miracles are similar to sorcery in that they are mortal powered but draw from a different well. For example, Jesus (a mortal being) performed miracles. All of his were the result of his love for fellow mortals. The power is divine but actually was his. Miracles can be gifts from a god but still powered by mortals too. In game some are granted to the devout of a covenant. Your power at the whim of whom you worship. Others are from stories for game mechanics but this is also true in other places. Monks who meditate long enough, a learned skill, can acquire miracles. Often accompanied by repetitions of a mantra, much like a story. The longer the story or mantra the greater your symbolic dedication. The Exorcist, one of the best all time movies, concludes with an attempted miracle by two priests. The first shows that the power comes from mortals as the burden is too much for his weakened body. The second priest lacks dedication to the passages required of the miracle and also becomes a sad panda.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:47 pm

    But, people who lose their faith can still cast spells I'm pretty sure. Hollowed Reah can still cast, as can Parasite Solaire, and it is theorized turning hollow has to do with a mental state. So it gets pretty confusing.
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:49 pm

    Solaires no tneccesarily hollow, but possessed. Reah's faith is such a massive part of her maybe thats all she has left. She didnt lose her faith she lost everythig else. Maybe in her hollowed state she is just a devoted crazy person?


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:51 pm

    The two guards of Reah as well can still cast spells, in fact I think they can even cast Wrath of the Gods. And Wrath of the gods and force are both very violent spells, how would those work with the idea?
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:55 pm

    Their were unable to protect their lady despite desperately wanting to. So now they attempt to kill any who are near. Thus they are stuck in a state of "protect the holy one by any means necessary". Their violent spells tie into this well.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:56 pm

    Yeah, insanity usually increases faith actually. Also, with learned miracles there's no reason to expect them to unlearn it. To be honest though, I would have to assume hollow doesn't mean a lack of faith but something else is missing and I'm not sure if that's true or not. I think in logan's case hollow could be attributed to going too far along a path (some secrets are best left alone). I'm not sure this translates to reah and pals. My best guess is my first, once learned they remain. Does any hollow cast covenant miracles? That would make my latest crazy rant crazier

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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by Imarreteet23 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:04 pm

    Going with what Skarekrow said, why does insanity mean that you lose all of your talents? Alot of insane people in real life have amazing skills, they're just, well, insane. Going hollow is probably similar. You retain all your skills from before, you just become a bloodthirsty monster.


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    cloudyeki
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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:27 pm

    Members of the dark souls academia, we canno linger too long on this subject, for there is more to question, and theorize about. We are of the consensus that prayers or stories or mantras are in some way tied to the miracles and the faith, right?

    I wish to question the style or sorcery Vinheilm specializes in. The sorcery of the soul, and it's ties to the dragons. It seems a most bizarre thing to me.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:30 pm

    In the thread I posted I believe someone mentioned that sorceries coul eat at the casters soul for energy However I don't like this as I'm pretty sure Seath was a master of sorcery before he was given part of Gwyns souls. I see it more as using your mental fortitude to draw energy from the environment then shape it into the form you want.
    I'm of the mind Seath started the school to raise an army of sorcerors as his allies.


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    Re: Magical theory 201

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