balancing things out

    Share

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:30 pm

    @ BLA1NE
    You're right on the money. I just like to discuss these things. With no intent whatsoever of creating a fuss I might add. Just good old discussion.
    avatar
    BLA1NE
    Stat Guru
    Stat Guru

    Posts : 2631
    Reputation : 172
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Location : Montreal

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:33 pm

    I see nothing wrong with discussion. I also like to explore the possibilities of modifying the gameplay, even if what we discuss will never happen. But what we always have to remember in these discussions is that we're talking about games, and gameplay. So we pretty much need to throw reality out the window when gameplay balance, in order to be fun and fair, is concerned.

    People will always come in these types of threads and paste link after link of real life material to support their arguments, but they're all essentially irrelevant since we're discussing a game, not reality.


    _________________
    Blaine Incarnate

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:40 pm


    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:58 pm

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=zweihander+arma+association&um=1&hl=pt-PT&biw=1613&bih=927&tbm=isch&tbnid=3J2Du5VgQgmJTM:&imgrefurl=http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html&docid=3q3VF5Jz9s5uBM&imgurl=http://www.thearma.org/images/S2000/New_Folder/p9160037.jpg&w=495&h=409&ei=vTp_T8_ILae80QXIwOiLBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=566&vpy=146&dur=1669&hovh=204&hovw=247&tx=140&ty=127&sig=103543262951436495720&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=166&start=0&ndsp=46&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:70

    Yes, very practical
    I'm showing you material from rather realiable sources. You don't want to read it it's your perrogative.
    On a side note, they mention ceremonial swords in the article that, if memory serves me right are aproximate to the zweihander's weight in the game. That said there's no reason the technique involved has to be clumsy.
    As for your post, that had nothing to do with anything.
    The game show improper sword technique and gives off a felling of big/great swords being akin to hammers. And that's incorrect. Simple. But like I said not a big deal. It's for the show and I can see why they did it.

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:04 pm

    BLA1NE wrote: I see nothing wrong with discussion. I also like to explore the possibilities of modifying the gameplay, even if what we discuss will never happen. But what we always have to remember in these discussions is that we're talking about games, and gameplay. So we pretty much need to throw reality out the window when gameplay balance, in order to be fun and fair, is concerned.

    People will always come in these types of threads and paste link after link of real life material to support their arguments, but they're all essentially irrelevant since we're discussing a game, not reality.

    True, but it's in that mixing that I see the challenge. There's always concessions to be made however...

    As for the material posted that was simpy to support my argument, which by the way was not the main point of the thread.
    I was more interested in the forum users opinion on the "grab" attacks (backstab and riposte).
    In the future I'll keep things in separate threads.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:12 pm

    You do realize that actual Zweihander's were originally only 5 feet long right?

    You do realize that larger versions being used for actual warfare is heavily disputed by historical scholars & at the end of the day it is simply considered legend right?

    You do realize that the way these swords were described to be used for where to disrupt pikemen formation & not for actual sword on sword combat right? That these guys were supposedly frontline expendable fodder who didn't fight in a way that can be considered elegant or with great skill when compared to a user of a normal sized sword right?

    You do realize that actual historians believe these pieces to mainly be for show hung up on walls, used for ceremony, & given to guards (not army men) as an intimidation tactic (large sword equal bad ***) right?

    You do realize that firearms were being implemented into the military making such weapons less relevant during this same time right?


    Last edited by Oo1Zer0 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    BLA1NE
    Stat Guru
    Stat Guru

    Posts : 2631
    Reputation : 172
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Location : Montreal

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:15 pm

    @Bla

    I think most people just chose not to discuss the grab mechanic because we've already discussed that to death a long time ago now!


    _________________
    Blaine Incarnate

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:31 pm

    Actually the guys yielding said swords would be better paid than the rest since it was harder to handle them and they had to have great skill to do it. I'm sure there are cases were they would be brutes without skill but that doesn't make it the rule.
    Further down that arma that arma article there's a guy testing out a 7.5 pounds sword (don't recall the size) and saying it was rather easy to handle. Deceptive for its size and weight.

    And it's not only the bigger swords the game depicts wrongly. Tell me: do you think the way the claymore is used in the game is close to the actual way it's used?
    Swords are not hammers or axes, it's what I said and am saying still.
    The myth that big swords are unwildy will live forever, when in the end it was one of the most beautifull and perfect arts of its time.

    But you know what: you're being way too emotional over this and are starting to be offensive. Weather I'm right or not doesn't merit that, because I've been civil up until now, something you failed to do.
    I rather speak with someone more level. That way if I had to learn something it would actually be pleaseant.

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:35 pm

    @ BLA1NE

    Do you know in which thread that was discussed?

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:57 pm

    bla wrote:Actually the guys yielding said swords would be better paid than the rest since it was harder to handle them and they had to have great skill to do it. I'm sure there are cases were they would be brutes without skill but that doesn't make it the rule.
    Further down that arma that arma article there's a guy testing out a 7.5 pounds sword (don't recall the size) and saying it was rather easy to handle. Deceptive for its size and weight.
    They were better payed because they had a higher chance at dieing while acting as a frontline taking the brunt of spear attacks. Don't you even know what fodder is? In military they generally train you how to use the weapon they give you so of course they're going to teach them how to chop a spear head off since that was their job.

    bla wrote:And it's not only the bigger swords the game depicts wrongly. Tell me: do you think the way the claymore is used in the game is close to the actual way it's used?
    Given the amount of force & momentum put into the swings it's closer yes. You gotta remember that solders didn't put everything into a swing. It simply didn't require that much strength to kill your opponent while doing so & missing would cause you to stagger. In dark souls you're cutting through giant monsters so added force is a required. But we're talking about the Zwei not Claymore.

    bla wrote:Swords are not hammers or axes, it's what I said and am saying still.
    Actually in some ways the Zwei are meant to be used like a hammer, axe, or spear at times.

    bla wrote:The myth that big swords are unwildy will live forever, when in the end it was one of the most beautifull and perfect arts of its time.
    Things like your average Archer Swords (about 3 feet long), Bastard Swords (3 1/2 feet), or Claymore (4 feet) were actually well balanced light weight blades & could be used for fencing. However an exaggerated Zwei designed for display isn't practical.

    bla wrote:But you know what: you're being way too emotional over this and are starting to be offensive.
    Because you won't get the point that a sword towering 7 feet or higher (like in dark souls) is in no way a practical weapon?

    bla wrote:Weather I'm right or not doesn't merit that, because I've been civil up until now, something you failed to do. I rather speak with someone more level. That way if I had to learn something it would actually be pleaseant.
    Why because I disagreed with you & spoke the truth? You came in here acting like you know what you're talking about & I corrected you on a mistake. Stop acting like a baby just because you're wrong.
    avatar
    BLA1NE
    Stat Guru
    Stat Guru

    Posts : 2631
    Reputation : 172
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Location : Montreal

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:07 pm

    bla wrote:@ BLA1NE

    Do you know in which thread that was discussed?
    No... This forum's been active since January, you could use the search function to try and find them. And before that, we'd been on the wiki's forum pretty much since last October. So there's been more than a few in that time span. I've probably even started at least one of them!

    I could be remembering wrong (ie: remembering what I want to remember silly) but I think the general consensus, after all was said and done, was that:

    - Weapons that focus solely on critical hits (daggers and such) could keep the grab attack.

    - Everything else would no longer do a grab attack, but hits to the back could potentially do increased damage--if they land, of course. Since these weapons no longer have grab attacks, hitting people in the back without them rolling away would appropriately be more difficult.

    - I threw around a suggestion that you could only backstab if you weren't locked-on, that way people could no longer abuse the lock-on mechanic to get auto-backstabs when playing online. Don't remember how that was received.

    Well... that's not all of it, I'm sure, but that's all I can remember for now in my biased mind.


    _________________
    Blaine Incarnate

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:54 pm

    Alright. Thanks BLA1NE. Maybe I'll do some searching. I guess that my observations regarding parrying gwyn have also been discussed previously. Will look into it.
    avatar
    BLA1NE
    Stat Guru
    Stat Guru

    Posts : 2631
    Reputation : 172
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Location : Montreal

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:34 pm

    I think everyone just skipped over that point too because we all simply agree! I wouldn't go as far as making him not-parryable, beause I think that's an important aspect of the fight, but I agree that he's a breeze when you know how to parry him.

    What the game director, Miyazaki, wanted to accomplish with Gwyn, was a boss fight that you could beat with any playstyle you'd developed through the game. So you could tank him, take him out from range, parry him, etc. He did say, in all honesty, that he was disappointed with the end result, though. From my experience, it's probably because Gwyn turned out to be a terrible foe for people trying to take him from range, and a pushover for tanks--especially tanks who know how to parry.

    So I think it's great that you can parry him. But at the same time I understand that it's by far the easiest way to beat him.

    Oh, and just call me Blaine!


    _________________
    Blaine Incarnate
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:49 pm

    Guys, remember to keep everything friendly and pleasant.

    By the way, you can use a greatsword in battle, but I would never suggest it in a duel or small group combat. You are way too slow to properly use it unless your level of skill is a great deal higher than the other person, in which case it is less about your skill but more so their mistakes. The German Zweihander did see combat and could be effective, but had to be used in certain ways such as gripping the cross guard, and revere wielding the sword to hammer armor. I wouldn't personally carry it into battle, but you could. People were killed by them, but they did get replaced by weapons with more practical uses. It can kill, it just isn't as practical.
    avatar
    NedroidPrime
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 82
    Reputation : 2
    Join date : 2012-03-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Ohio

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by NedroidPrime on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:26 am

    Oo1Zer0 wrote:Exaggerated larger swords are display pieces made for ceremony & aren't practical for actual combat. The longer the blade the longer it takes your swing to travel from point A to point B which means the longer it takes you to recover to follow up with another attack or block. This is why Greatswords are sometimes held on the dull part of the blade to reduce the length while adding better leverage for more powerful strikes. If holding the sword by it's handle & actually swinging it one handed like in dark souls you could potentially lose power in your swing. You'd actually be better off using a one and a half hand sword over an oversized display piece. If these swords were practical everyone would have been using them.

    FYI a two handed sword IS difficult to wield if used improperly & with only one hand like in dark souls. That's why it's called a two handed sword because it's supposed to be used with both hands. I actually own some of these weapons so ummm yeah don't act like I have no idea what I'm talking about please.

    PS: Ever heard the phrase the bigger the gun the smaller the penis? It was a sign of higher standing in those time just as some platemail which weren't designed to be practical in combat such as some armor worn during jousting competition. Extra metal was added to look pretty & protect specific areas since they had no intention of getting off the horse.

    You have valid points, however...

    Assuming that a zweihander actually weighs 18 lbs, and has a corresponding stat requirement of 20 strength (don't know off the top of my head), that means at 20 strength you are strong enough to wield the weapon with some proficiency. But when you are a stat value of say 60, then you should theoretically be able to deal with the weight easier, and therefore more effective with the weapon in combat. Now if you want to discuss balance of weight and so forth, that would be a good topic to take up (but I will argue that dexterity can be used to address that somewhat). But I stand that if there is a big friggin sword that requires that I be very strong to use, I would assume that if I got much stronger beyond that I would be more effective. Though, now that I type this out, I realize it is addressed somewhat with stats on weapons, but not enough. I would think that at the very least someone with twice the strength of another given person would be able to bring down a sword with much more power...

    I just want more damage so I can beat Four Kings on my NG+ dag nabit! lol
    avatar
    cloudyeki
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3685
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-19
    Age : 25
    Location : Cali

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:01 am

    Reminds me of the guys in Demon's souls who used the keel smasher. God that thing was ridiculous. I wish the dragon greatsword was closer to it's Demon's counterpart.


    _________________
    Spoiler:

    Props to BindMind for the sig!

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:39 am

    Oo1Zer0 you were right.
    I red the article I posted (hadn't read it in a long time) and I was definitly mixing up the specialized role of the zwei with one and a half swords, which are usually the wepons that get bad reputation unnecessarily. Indeed like the article mentions there are effectively no detailed records of that sword's handling.
    I still think weapons like the claymore and bastard sword feel too weighty (I know I didn't mention this in the first post and was not the discussion) and I still think you were too derisive in your comments even if I was being stubborn. You definilty got me going with that buster sword nonsense, because that's a far cry from the mistake I made. Had I been more cool headed I would properly check my facts beforehand.
    But again I say you were right (I'm sure you don't need that confirmation anyway).

    bla
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 81
    Reputation : 9
    Join date : 2012-04-05

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by bla on Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:54 am

    NedroidPrime, the issue with two-handing heavy weapons be it swords hammers or axes etc. is something I would like to see properly adressed in videogames.
    While this won't take place in dark souls because it would involve altering animations, a 3rd souls game could be a good candidate.
    I am aware that this kind of balance would be hard to achieve but I don't think it's impossible.
    The rise in strenght enabling someone to swing faster would be awesome, and this is a discussion that intrigues me outside videogames and inclusively bleeds into other realms, such as strenght versus speed. But that is probably a discussion for off-topic.

    At any rate, giving two handed swings a bit more speed in general (not much) could have been a simple solution when designing dark souls. If I'm not mistaken, both one-handed and two handed have the same speed.
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:40 am

    Two Handing daggers is another thing that might want to be addressed haha.
    avatar
    ublug
    Forum Lord
    Forum Lord

    Posts : 1125
    Reputation : 240
    Join date : 2012-01-16

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by ublug on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:45 am

    Tolvo wrote:Two Handing daggers is another thing that might want to be addressed haha.
    Same with rapiers. Btw, the moves of the rapier and estoc should also be switched. The rapier has a blade, while an estoc is only made for stabbing.
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:46 am

    If the game gets too realistic though, man would it be ridiculous. "Well you hit him, but you are trying to cut plate, so your attack does no damage and your weapon was knocked away."
    avatar
    SlakeMoth
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1652
    Reputation : 76
    Join date : 2012-01-23
    Location : Otherwhere

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by SlakeMoth on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:54 pm

    I just wonder where the Lifehunt Scythe figures in all this preamble. As far as I know only 'The Grim Reaper' uses it to inflict death.
    avatar
    cloudyeki
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3685
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-19
    Age : 25
    Location : Cali

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:11 pm

    Scythes were converted for infantry use slake. Thing is the blade was usually lifted 90 degrees, to make it a sort of glaive. I believe an entire unit in Poland at one point was made entirely of these weapons.

    And it's not just the way they cut and stabbed so well. Psychological warfare, early addition big grin


    _________________
    Spoiler:

    Props to BindMind for the sig!
    avatar
    Tolvo
    Town Crier
    Town Crier

    Posts : 13287
    Reputation : 542
    Join date : 2012-02-01
    Age : 25
    Location : The Forest, Illinois

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:12 pm

    Dark Souls: Realism Mode.

    I think I'll just sit back with a bow, if I can manage to hit anyone with the damn thing.
    avatar
    Rin
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1093
    Reputation : 14
    Join date : 2012-01-31
    Age : 105
    Location : Painted World, planting flowers...

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Rin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:37 pm

    can some1 wt this topic is bout the 1st part was arguin bout gs and now yur arguin bout wt exacly the title is rather misleading


    _________________
    "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy none the less"

    Sponsored content

    Re: balancing things out

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:12 am