Why so much hate in pvp?

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    Kaminari
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    Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Kaminari on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:48 am

    Hi everyone, I rarely write in these forums but now I feel I have to ask.

    First of all, why is it like 90% of the players here hate people who uses estus flasks in a duel? As I can see, the invader has the upper hand from the start. The invader can use heal right? yes, Estus is a bit quicker, but the invader can use the NPCs to protect himself while healing?

    Secondly, if the invaded person loses, he will lose one humanity. the invader, as far as I know, has NOTHING to lose. wich means that if the invaded player is trying to have some co-op, and just got one or two humanity, he/she will do whatever he/she can to stay alive?

    And what is all this rage about Wrath Of The Gods? It's easy to trick someone to use it, for me, it seems like alot of people starts to say something is lame/cheating/cheap just because they don't know how to handle it.

    I got more problems with CSoulspear than with the WOTG, since the rolling delays sometimes. Also, It's more usual for me to get one hit killed by the Csoulspears than getting killed of spammed WOTG. But I don't say it's cheap cause of that. It's all a tactic. I mean, If I meet a sorcere then ofcourse that SORCERER will use SORCERY. and ofcourse the SORCERER will use the STRONGEST SORCERY he/she has? Why wouldn't you go with the strongest attacks you got? When someone says "Stop use the f*cking WOTG" I just can't see the diffrence in telling someone to stop use the strong 2 handed attack or the fast weapon that will make my stamina bar empty.

    I don't know much about how people is going to take my message her, but haters my hate me. People that is up for discussion and can hold it on a mature level, I'm waiting for your replies.

    Regards///Kaminari
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by JY4answer on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:59 am

    I think you're confusing duels with invasions.

    Some players prefer making all things equal between themselves and have a good duel. The difference in healing gives a huge advantage to the host. That also means no mobs or phantoms.

    As for WoG, generally we're fine with it, although we don't represent the world. As long as you don't have 24 uses stacked most forum members are rather happy with it. The main problem people have with it is the ease of use, huge area, speed and damage dealt. Spamming it can get you a rather easy advantage, but if you don't spam it noone here will complain. Most of us here will tell you that a WoG spamm is an invitation to a BS.

    Feel free to reply with your thoughts on this.


    Last edited by JY4answer on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Yesuurd on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:03 am

    I am a Darkwraith on all my toons, I agree with you and I am usually the invader.
    I expect people to gang up on me, heal, go at me while spawning and run for their lives, I am invading them I do not know what they were after in their world and I am interfering.

    If someone heals it's my fault, we BS easily while healing and healing without allowing an experienced invader to BS you should be commended, also it is more demanding for the invader.We invaders do have the advantage always and loose nothing, WOTG is complicated and many just let the group decide for themselves that it is bad, just as BSing, there have been countless talks about these things on the forum and at the end
    we have to arrive at the same constant.

    Dark souls is an unforgiving game ans all it's tactics are part of it, no matter how cheap or difficult you find any of them, they are part of the game and all of them can be in some way evaded, for gods sake even TWOP, look for videos of people getting cocky with TWOP and getting parried to death or you can simply many times run till it fades.

    You have to realize most of our community is very honorable and gets frusrated by cheapness, so that is one mayor thing.

    Another thing is that sometimes for some people this hate comes from frustration and the inability to deal with loosing.

    Also very good point from JY, dueling is much different and many things are considered very cheap while dueling.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Kaminari on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:35 am

    JY4Answear!: Answears!!

    Statement: "I think you're confusing duels with invasions"

    Answear:How are you suposed to know the diffrence? If you invade me, you bow and I bow, does that make it "Yes, this is a duel" ? Then if you bow and I don't people will hate me for being rude?



    Statement: "Some players
    prefer making all things equal between themselves and have a good duel.
    The difference in healing gives a huge advantage to the host. That also
    means no mobs or phantoms"

    Reply: It will not be equal as long as the payers don't have the exact same stats and equipment. Even in a so called honorable duel, the point is to kill your opponent. I don't think the Gladiators in rome were thinking "I can't stab this man in the back, that would be cheap, I try run head first even if it will get me killed to 99%."

    Statement: "As for WoG, generally we're fine with
    it, although we don't represent the world"

    Reply: Generally fine with it? I have seen thousands of complains about it and how cheap it is here in the forums.


    Statement:"As long as you don't have 24
    uses stacked most forum members are rather happy with it. The main
    problem people have with it is the ease of use, huge area, speed and
    damage dealt."

    Reply: Still, it's 100% avoidable. You can trick the user to use it, and you can use great shields to take 90% of the damage. Is it more okay to have a fast lightning sword that you swing from side to side 30 times when I'm blocking with the shield making me die instantly if I stop block, or just die as soon as the stamina bar is emptied?


    Statement: "Spamming it can get you a rather easy advantage, but if
    you don't spam it noone here will complain. Most of us here will tell
    you that a WoG spamm is an invitation to a BS."

    Reply: And whats wrong with the backstabs? How shoud player with a quick, weak character, using the knife be able to have the slightsest chance without the backstab? Just make sure you don't get the one behind you, problem solved, isn't it?


    Feel free to reply with your thoughts on this: Thank you! This is my answears, they might be a bit exaggerated (spelling?) but its just to make my points clear. Also, my answears is not like this because I find it I'm treated badly or something, I don't even have all this problems, but I'm talking about situations between others.


    Yesuurd:: Answears!!

    Statement: "no
    matter how cheap or difficult you find any of them, they are part of the
    game and all of them can be in some way evaded, for gods sake even
    TWOP, look for videos of people getting cocky with TWOP and getting
    parried to death or you can simply many times run till it fades."

    Reply: Good view of the tactis, yes, everything has a way to be evaded, now I might sound noobie but what is TWOP?

    Statement:"You have to realize most of our community is very honorable and gets frusrated by cheapness, so that is one mayor thing."

    Reply: Maybe, but then againg, what decides what's honorable?


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:39 am

    Dude, the only time I'm disappointed with healing is if we're having a 1v1 duel. If I face them and they can't take losing and start chugging then I just crystal out in protest. When I duel I feel that healing is a no go. The guy may BS me and thats fair, but if he heals i just feel he's no worth bothering with anymore.

    Your entire point is centred around random invasions. However if you invade some guy and they signal they want a 1v1 duel, healing should be off the table really. Random invasions though let's be honest it's just gonna be a struggle of you versus 3 and there's no rules there, all you are to them is another thing just in the way of the boss fog.

    I agree with the honourable thing you said. A lot of people here I've noticed to say that one thing is definitely 100% honourable while others are not. Which is interesting because I've actually had a conversation with a guy who healed and I crystalled out of a duel. He thought it was fine to do that in Dark, having played demon's where many people grassed in the middle of duels. It just gives you a different perspective (though the one of the things I consider cheap in duels are healing)


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Kaminari on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:42 am

    Serious_Much


    I get your point about healing, so to get it deeper, let's say you invade me and want a fair duel. How should I know that, and how should you know that I understand it? Once again, if you bow, I could be nice and bow back, without meaning it as "This will be an epic duel"

    If you bow, and I don't bow back, People will see me as rude, and call me a frickin noob if I attack you before you have bowed.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:46 am

    Thing is kami, most people from playing the game enough pick up on this duelling etiquette thing. It's pretty much there everywhere in any PvP hotspot. You bow, get bowed back to and duel. There's guys who also know this unwritten rule and actually exploit it, using Hornet ring and BS for an instakill.

    It's not being nooby, it's a choice though if you do attack me before I've bowed (long as it's not while I'm spawning, even noobs could tell that's low), then it's not that bad, maybe I took too long to bow etc.

    The only way you wouldn't know is if you're a genuine complete noob in dueling. And even then i think anyone can understand what a bow means to be honest. It at the very least means I'm not a **** or something similar.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by aceluby on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:09 am

    I simply follow the golden rule when I PvP... do unto others as you would like them to do unto you. That's not to say I don't have different rules for different situations, but it's a good, easy, general rule to apply. Also, reply to any hatemail with 'lol'.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:14 am

    aceluby wrote:I simply follow the golden rule when I PvP... do unto others as you would like them to do unto you. That's not to say I don't have different rules for different situations, but it's a good, easy, general rule to apply. Also, reply to any hatemail with 'lol'.

    I prefer replies based upon what covenant I am using to invade with, I think most people actually find them pretty funny silly


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by WarriorOfSunlight on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:19 am

    Just play how you want. It's a game, you bought it. Do what you want. If people still complain, just move on, ain't worth your time.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by ARSP on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:42 am

    the point is respect if your invader bows and you bow back then you fight honorably (unless he tries to BS you while you are doing it) not everyone is honorable or honest and people will try to take advantage of your respect and try to kill you it is going to happen. and lastly people complain because they like to complain it happens and it will happen often we just do our best to lower the amount of complaints so everyone can enjoy the game and of course there is a no holds barred approach too.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by callipygias on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:13 pm

    Kaminari wrote: I mean, If I meet a sorcere then ofcourse that SORCERER will use SORCERY. and ofcourse the SORCERER will use the STRONGEST SORCERY he/she has? When someone says "Stop use the f*cking WOTG" I just can't see the diffrence in telling someone to stop use the strong 2 handed attack or the fast weapon that will make my stamina bar empty.
    I had to +2 your excellent post.

    Now that I've started making sorcerers I've wondered about that. A couple of my girls (dunno why all my sorcerers are female) are full-on, meaning very low strength and very low dex, but both have 10 attune slots and have gone through at least NG+++ to amass Crystal spells. If I get invaded and the terrain allows, I'm going to use sorcery like it's going out of style. I KNOW people will complain about that, but if you don't want to fight a sorcerer, don't invade one.

    And by the way, I really don't get that, because unless the player really knows how to use the landscape, sorcerers seem pretty easy to beat in pvp, generally.
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:09 pm

    @OP

    Like JY said, you're confusing between invasion and duel.

    When I invade, I do not care at all what the host does. Like you said, I have nothing to lose, whereas the host stands to lose a humanity and his progress through the area. So if they heal, I don't care.

    But in a duel, when people heal, I get pretty upset. Mostly because I duel with my Mage most of the time. With a limited number of castings, it's extremely annoying to have someone I've almost killed replenish all their health when I'm almost out of magic. And if I'm not using my Mage, I'm using my SLB build, which has only 1 cast that lasts only a minute. If you heal, it's like we start the fight fresh, only I'm out of buff. And while people will argue that buffing is an advantage, that's not exactly right. A build that doesn't use a buff has other strengths, and they don't wear off. A buffing build, on the other hand, is at its best when it's buffed, and when it's not it's very weak.

    As for specific cheap tactics... There aren't really many I mind. WoG I don't mind because most people are blatantly obvious when they're going to use it. "Oh I had a shield in my left hand but now I'll pull out my talisman to cast WoG, I hope he doesn't notice and roll away." And if they do use it well, then it's my fault for not dodging properly and I deserve to take that hit. Other than that, I'm still not cool with TWoP, or people continuously abusing lagstabs and not even trying to attack you if not to backstab. That's about it...

    Oh, and as for how to tell it's a duel: if you're in the Kiln, and you bow, it's a duel. If you're in the Kiln and you don't bow, it's a duel, but I won't be as upset if you did something cheap, because you clearly don't know what you're doing in the Kiln. There are other areas for dueling (Burg, Btown arena, Centipede door, Duke's, etc.) but those are less set-in-stone than the kiln, so I'm more lenient there too. Also, if I was summoned from a Red Sign, no matter where, it's a duel.

    Edit: I want to clarify, because I realized that I'm not explaining properly something that was clear in head: when I say "you're in the Kiln", I mean you're standing in the top area, clearly waiting for someone to spawn so you can fight. I don't mean someone who'd going down the slope fighting the Black Knights on his way to Gwyn. If you're in the Kiln and headed for Gwyn, then it's an invasion and it's like I said above.


    @Much:

    I don't usually Crystal out no matter what my opponent does, I just go with it to the end, but I did once during our Russian Roulette event. lol I was summoned by a random when all I had in my inventory was a barbed straight sword and crystal shield! The random was wearing full Havel's and turtling behind Havel's shield... He was probably the biggest noob I've ever faced, and rarely ever put down his shield. So I did the only thing I could: bleed him through his shield. When he started healing, I started backstabbing. I backstabbed him about 7 times, bled him twice, and he flasked about 5 times... I was really tired of fighting this guy! So I just crystalled out.


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:36 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Ironliftr3 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:16 pm

    I don't understand the no healing, or WoG, either. They are tools. YOU invaded ME. I will use whatever I can to stay alive. Backstabbing I feel otherwise on, because of internet lag. I feel like it's taking advantage of a 'flaw' in the system, not a 'tool'.

    The things I hate about PvP

    - When people 'hang' at a spawning spot, and attack 2 on 1...such as the bridge in Dark Anor Londo. They KNOW DMer's are going to spawn in, and lie in wait to attack from multiple directions as soon as you do.

    -People who obviously used to Bottomless Box glitch to have stronger weapons at a lower level. I started a new character yesterday, and at level 16 I got invaded in the Depths by people with fire and lightning weapons. HOW is that possible at such a low level unless you've used BB? (Please feel free to explain if I am misinformed).
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:22 pm

    ironlifter, there were griefers before the BB glitch became mainstream, and those guys were horrendous. They literally do the game at low level just so they can grief. Problem with the original griefers was because they can do that feat they were highly skilled too. Unlike with griefers now where they are generally people who suck at PvP so take it out on lowbies, those guys you just couldn't compete with, especially when you're playthrough 1.

    Blaine, I just do it to make a point. Generally punishing and killing them with BS would be easier, but instead I just crystal out to make a point that it's not on.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by callipygias on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:26 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:Oh, and as for how to tell it's a duel: if you're in the Kiln, and you bow, it's a duel.
    Disagree.

    BLA1NE wrote: If you're in the Kiln and you don't bow, it's a duel.
    Disagree.

    BLA1NE wrote:if I was summoned from a Red Sign, no matter where, it's a duel.
    Agree.



    Lots of people want help with Gwyn, and summoning can take a while. They may be honorable enough to bow, but that doesn't mean they're interested in dueling rules. They need summons and maybe can't afford to lose humanity.
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Yukon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:26 pm

    BWAHAHAHA, that is so hilarious Blaine. I felt almost bad just sitting back and letting you reds kill my invaders but I pretty much had nothing equiped either. It was pretty funny when I set you off to fight that person I summoned by mistake with artorias's great sword. I was suprised she waited long enough for me to drop you a weapon.

    Another invader came between battles and tried to kill me with magic in the ring, I avoided them until one of the duelest was summoned, she turned expecting an allie and got BS, with a darksword +15 or something. haw haw haw. JOLLY COOPERATION.

    As for being on topic. Really, some people here will find anything to complain about in random invasions, they don't represent the forums as a whole. There is really a lot of controversy over invasion mechanics and what is considered fair. For me anything short of BB glitching a lightening weapon and havels armour into the burg and parish is fair play. That said I also don't like seeing people set of 9 wogs. It's one thing to use wog 3 times another to expect its over at double that number and be hit off a cliff in the forest. stacking magic just irritates me, but Its not unfair so much as it is "why bother."

    Duels are a little more direct in their rules. I have been summoned in painted world where the host flasked over and over again. I never healed once but every time they flasked I BS'd, something I try to avoid in duels but do not mind doing in regular invasions. my point is, If you arent in a forum organized event, just have fun play with whatever you want no one can stop you from not bowing or healing or using 9 wogs.
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:32 pm

    ^Yeah, I saw the mage's shadow when I was waiting to get summoned! From the angle of his attack, I knew he must have invaded you.

    callipygias wrote:
    BLA1NE wrote:Oh, and as for how to tell it's a duel: if you're in the Kiln, and you bow, it's a duel.
    Disagree.

    BLA1NE wrote: If you're in the Kiln and you don't bow, it's a duel.
    Disagree.

    BLA1NE wrote:if I was summoned from a Red Sign, no matter where, it's a duel.
    Agree.



    Lots of people want help with Gwyn, and summoning can take a while. They may be honorable enough to bow, but that doesn't mean they're interested in dueling rules. They need summons and maybe can't afford to lose humanity.
    The whole point of bowing is to say "I know, understand, and accept the rules of the duel". THAT's WHY we bow. If you're in the kiln and you bow, you're supposed to stick to the rules of dueling. Otherwise, just don't bow. I don't give a damn what people do if they don't bow; but if they do, they better follow the rules.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by callipygias on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:37 pm

    No offense, man, but DISAGREE. Bowing is also a show of respect, greeting, but depending on the circumstance does not have to mean the invaded player will voluntarily limit their options.
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:39 pm

    In the Kiln, it does. No offense to you, but if you disagree, it's because you don't know what you're talking about here. If you bow in the top area of the Kiln, it's a duel. Otherwise there'd be no way of knowing whether or not it's a duel, hence no duels period. How are you supposed to have duels if you never know if you're opponent is also agreeing to the rules?


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by RANT on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:40 pm

    what plaine and j4 said, duells and invasions are different, even in duels you have to be prepared for everything cause you never know if the other guy is gonna use cheap tactics or not. the only places where you can for sure have a proper duel is in a fight club or when someone challenges you and you agree on certain rules.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by callipygias on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:47 pm

    So Blaine, if a player is having trouble with Gwyn and desperately trying to summon help, they get invaded, the invader bows, assuming the player isn't interested in limiting their battle options and losing humanity, should they not bow back?
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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Yukon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:49 pm

    In the above case I would use the prostration gesture. Beg for mercy. Some invaders will warp out then drop their summon sign, tada! Others will kill you anyway.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:13 pm

    callipygias wrote:So Blaine, if a player is having trouble with Gwyn and desperately trying to summon help, they get invaded, the invader bows, assuming the player isn't interested in limiting their battle options and losing humanity, should they not bow back?
    That's correct. In that case I'd consider it a courtesy not to bow, that way I know their intent is not to duel. And even better if they do like JY said and prostrate.

    If I'm looking for a duel, I'm not looking to pick on everyone in the Kiln indiscriminately. If they're not there to duel, and they signify this by prostrating, then I'll crystal out. But if they bow, they're not telling me "I'm trying to go kill Gwyn but I'm being respectful," they're telling me they're there for the same reason I am, so they'll probably lose a humanity for bowing back--and might get a message from me saying you're not supposed to heal during a duel.


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    Re: Why so much hate in pvp?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:17 pm

    I typically message people if it seems to me like they might be somewhere for the boss or other reasons, I get away and stay hidden to do this. If I get a reply I abide by it, they say they're after a boss I let them go. I PvP only to fight against others who wish to PvP. If you don't want to fight, then I'll just crystal out. I gain nothing from killing some person struggling to get to the boss and using up their last humanity. I'm only looking for a challenge and some fun.

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