Who doesn't use the DWGR?

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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:40 am

    Thing is, Reaper, there's a lot of things that fit all builds. The wolf ring, havel's ring, ring of favour. Elemental weapons like the claymore can be 2H by pretty much any build to devastating effect, Heavy armour can be worn using the right equipment with any build (shown by flipping giants tweakers).

    To be honest, just because something is usable by everyone, doesn't mean it's bad, it would remove many things out of the game including one of the three magic types, even armour sets can be brought into question with that reasoning.

    There are far more things that fit every build than just the flip ring.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:42 am

    Serious_Much wrote:Thing is, Reaper, there's a lot of things that fit all builds. The wolf ring, havel's ring, ring of favour. Elemental weapons like the claymore can be 2H by pretty much any build to devastating effect, Heavy armour can be worn using the right equipment with any build (shown by flipping giants tweakers).

    To be honest, just because something is usable by everyone, doesn't mean it's bad, it would remove many things out of the game including one of the three magic types, even armour sets can be brought into question with that reasoning.

    There are far more things that fit every build than just the flip ring.
    Thank you for explaining to people big grin
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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:47 am

    In the same way though artorias, I choose to not have more than one magic type on each of my builds because I think it's a bit too good, yet I choose to use things like ring of a favour and flip ring indiscriminately and elemental weapons that I can wield too.

    I guess it's preference, but when the lag in PvP for yourself means that it's near impossible to dodge without flip ring or light roll, then you know what's gonna happen really :|


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:54 am

    What they should of done is that you do light roll even if you were <50% and>25 % you would do the light roll just like demons. then no one would use the DWGR
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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:00 am

    Yeah, I think though with the addition of poise to armour, they tried to make it more of a trade off by having slower roll at 50%, but then you have poise to tank..

    Then they added the DWGR, which in my personal opinion is not limiting enough. Really it should make it so that equipment above a certain weight or armour of a certain weight class cannot perform the ninja flip. I feel it would be more balanced then.

    Even with that though you could still have full sets of Med armour for over 40 poise then add wolf ring to get 80 something, I guess the reason it hasn't been changed so far is if it's nerfed there would still be a way to create tankish poise with the flip ring.. And the only way that could stop that from happening is making the flip ring unusable :|


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:02 am

    Or make they heavy armour heavier but that would impact the people that use havel gauntlets on lets say dex builds


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:07 am

    That is an option, but then that still doesn't stop people having like 86 poise with only medium armour and flipping.. (if you use full EU PS3 elite knight with wolf ring and flip ring)

    It's an issue that needs to be addressed, but limiting things would have knock on effects beyond those desired. Really is a tough one.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:09 am

    well the only way to eliminate that is nerf poise for medium armours


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by BLA1NE on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:27 am

    You're thinking way too complicated.

    The only thing that makes the DWGR OP is that you get fast move-speed and fast ninja-flipping, at 50% equip weight.

    Simple nerf: make the move-speed normal for your equip weight, have an alternate mid-weight flip.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:34 am

    Serious_Much wrote:Thing is, Reaper, there's a lot of things that fit all builds. The wolf ring, havel's ring, ring of favour. Elemental weapons like the claymore can be 2H by pretty much any build to devastating effect, Heavy armour can be worn using the right equipment with any build (shown by flipping giants tweakers).

    To be honest, just because something is usable by everyone, doesn't mean it's bad, it would remove many things out of the game including one of the three magic types, even armour sets can be brought into question with that reasoning.

    I absolutely understand that there are armors and rings that can also be universal, I merely pointed out that his specific example of weapons for all builds was wrong. Yes most anyone can two-hand a Zweihander, but is two-handing a Zweihander the best strategy for a Sorcery Caster? Or is using a dagger the best option for a tank? Just because you CAN use those weapons doesn't mean you should since they don't compliment your strategy optimally. And I never said the DWGR was bad, my entire beef with it is that its far too good lol.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:56 am

    Good point @Blaine, but still though, the roll speed what really makes is amazing, unless you're trying to BS you don't truly need to be a higher speed, just have the flip.. Im not sure that would solve it as you could still have poise tank flippers, which i think is the issue :|

    In my view, poise and maneuverability should be something you have to trade off or brought from great stat investment, not something you can attain by whacking on a couple of rings..

    @Reaper though, in the same way, pyro is universally too good. Everyone can use it and G combustion spam and that compliments anyones strategy in my view, and to be honest I think pyromancy is too good as you need no stat investment to use it besides a few levels in attunement.

    What I'm saying is there's more than just the flip ring that is "far too good" and while changing it would be good, it would mean they need to examine the way that elemental weapons, heavier armours and pyromancy are just as universally good and usable. (perhaps introducing requirements of STR for heavy armour, or increasing stat requirement to wield of elemental weapons etc) In all fairness the kind of changes needed are things that only will be implemented (maybe but not likely), in the next souls game not this one.

    I just stop worrying about it now to be honest. The game doesn't need to change really, and while I can think of ways to change everything for the better, there's no reason to in my view, it's not unbalanced.

    I disagree to be honest that the flip ring is unique in being so much more unbalancing than everything else, because it's just not.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:34 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:@Reaper though, in the same way, pyro is universally too good. Everyone can use it and G combustion spam and that compliments anyones strategy in my view, and to be honest I think pyromancy is too good as you need no stat investment to use it besides a few levels in attunement.

    What I'm saying is there's more than just the flip ring that is "far too good" and while changing it would be good, it would mean they need to examine the way that elemental weapons, heavier armours and pyromancy are just as universally good and usable. (perhaps introducing requirements of STR for heavy armour, or increasing stat requirement to wield of elemental weapons etc) In all fairness the kind of changes needed are things that only will be implemented (maybe but not likely), in the next souls game not this one.

    I disagree to be honest that the flip ring is unique in being so much more unbalancing than everything else, because it's just not.

    Forgive any spelling or wording problems, I'm on my phone with its stupid autocorrecting feature :|

    I will turn to experience here to back up my point. You will occasionally see combustion spam. You will sometimes see lightning weapons. You are almost guaranteed to see the DWGR. I have seen builds with clearly less than 25% load still using it, just because of the invincibility the flips provide over the somersault. Not al builds become drastically better by putting in pyromancy or elemental weapons, in fact some even get worse. I cannot think of a single build besides fat rolling tanks that do not benefit immensely from the DWGR (though I am open to examples I might not have thought of). Pyromancies and elemental weapons are good, but not TOO good. All I want is for flips to disappear in their current form, everything else about this game is spot on and should not be changed, but the gosh darn flips are destroying the variety that is supposed to come with such a free and open game experience. The DWGR makes multiplayer unfun to me, and with multiplayer contributing nearly a third of the experience of this game, it really cuts in to how much I can enjoy it outside of just running yet another NG run with some jan build, even though I know I can beat the game regardless. I am not lying when I say each time I see someone using it, I lose a little faith in this game, and I fear it won't be long until I stop enjoying it completely sad


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by exandroide on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:48 pm

    not using it for my Battle Witch (swapped it for BDC), but i don't understand the hatred for it either. the argument that people in heavy armor shouldn't be able to flip is somewhat silly in a game where you can one hand a Zweihander, bare-hand parry a sword and people shoot fire from their fists
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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:52 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:Thing is, Reaper, there's a lot of things that fit all builds. The wolf ring, havel's ring, ring of favour. Elemental weapons like the claymore can be 2H by pretty much any build to devastating effect, Heavy armour can be worn using the right equipment with any build (shown by flipping giants tweakers).

    To be honest, just because something is usable by everyone, doesn't mean it's bad, it would remove many things out of the game including one of the three magic types, even armour sets can be brought into question with that reasoning.

    I absolutely understand that there are armors and rings that can also be universal, I merely pointed out that his specific example of weapons for all builds was wrong. Yes most anyone can two-hand a Zweihander, but is two-handing a Zweihander the best strategy for a Sorcery Caster? Or is using a dagger the best option for a tank? Just because you CAN use those weapons doesn't mean you should since they don't compliment your strategy optimally. And I never said the DWGR was bad, my entire beef with it is that its far too good lol.

    Reaper thats why you make elemental weps, which can be used by almost anybuild. Alternate meduim roll destroys the point of the dwgr
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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:00 pm

    Reaper, I think your views aren't as objective as you'd like in the discussion silly you've just got massive hate for the DWGR. It's not the monster you make it out to be, and it wouldn't be if the game was not so laggy. It's the lag that makes it necessary, as it's the only decent roll that can dodge in PvP besides the fast roll. That's what it comes down to, in PvE it's almost pointless.

    Maybe it's a little too good, but like I mentioned before, Hornet BS instakilling and WoG/G combustion spamming to death could also be in this category of 'destroying PvP'. There's worse things than DWGR. People complain far more about BS, but you wouldn't argue for it to be removed and thats what I mean.

    @Artorias catch up on the debate my friend, you're a bit behind now silly


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Artorias on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:03 pm

    im sorry lol


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:17 pm

    it's okay, just make sure it doesnt happen again.

    .... lol!


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:28 pm

    I dont use it. It stagnates PvP and makes PvE a joke.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by BLA1NE on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:22 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Reaper, I think your views aren't as objective as you'd like in the discussion silly you've just got massive hate for the DWGR. It's not the monster you make it out to be, and it wouldn't be if the game was not so laggy. It's the lag that makes it necessary, as it's the only decent roll that can dodge in PvP besides the fast roll. That's what it comes down to, in PvE it's almost pointless.

    Maybe it's a little too good, but like I mentioned before, Hornet BS instakilling and WoG/G combustion spamming to death could also be in this category of 'destroying PvP'. There's worse things than DWGR. People complain far more about BS, but you wouldn't argue for it to be removed and thats what I mean.

    @Artorias catch up on the debate my friend, you're a bit behind now silly

    No, it's not the lag; you just mentioned the real problem without realizing it:

    Serious_Much wrote:it's the only decent roll that can dodge in PvP besides the fast roll.

    Some builds were never meant to dodge. Heavy armor has all that defense and poise because it's supposed to tank it, not brush it off and ninja-flip away, or have fast move-speed to poise-backstab you.

    That's what the real problem is. That's why the vast majority of everyone playing online now is wearing full havel's and ninja-flipping--because it's broken.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by lextune on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:24 pm

    I have 2 or 3 toons I don't use the ring on.

    I only use it if I feel good about the character flipping around, lol.

    Win or lose it is no fun to my Elite Knight cartwheeling around.....yeah, no thanks.

    And I win plenty by the way. silly


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:33 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Reaper, I think your views aren't as objective as you'd like in the discussion silly you've just got massive hate for the DWGR. It's not the monster you make it out to be, and it wouldn't be if the game was not so laggy. It's the lag that makes it necessary, as it's the only decent roll that can dodge in PvP besides the fast roll. That's what it comes down to, in PvE it's almost pointless.

    Maybe it's a little too good, but like I mentioned before, Hornet BS instakilling and WoG/G combustion spamming to death could also be in this category of 'destroying PvP'. There's worse things than DWGR. People complain far more about BS, but you wouldn't argue for it to be removed and thats what I mean.

    I never said I was trying to be objective. I'm just stating my opinion as to my views on the situation based on what I've observed. It does bother me a bit when people start bringing up lag though, since lag is something tied to networking and information sharing, and is not something that FROM has any control over. Nobody is going to be able to "fix" lag without revolutionizing the way we wirelessly connect devices, which is something that will most likely happen, if it happens at all, from a large technology engineering company and not from a video game developer. What FROM does have control over is how their system works, and if lag is making a mechanic in their system abusable then they have control over how that mechanic works so as to make it less abusable. Backstabs should not be removed, but they could do something like reducing the critical bonus of high AR weapons to make it less abusable outside of critical-dependant weapons. Combustion and WoG spam could be altered to have slightly more startup to their casting times, not enough to make them useless but enough to where there is time for a victim to dodge or block between spammed casts. The DWGR could be adjusted to where it reduces the wearer's stamina regeneration or costs more stamina to flip than to roll, or reduces the power of rolling attacks used when it's equipped so that it stops being an aggressive mechanic and purely a dodging mechanic. I have no problems with what the DWGR is or what it does and would never try and have it completely removed. I love what it does from a theoretical point actually, in that it makes players who value high mobility have an interesting way of moving around in a battle. What I dislike is what it has done to the metagame, and the staleness that has grown around it. I will repeat what I said earlier for emphasis; I don't want the DWGR removed, simply adjusted to be less abusable.


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:39 pm

    Blaine, thats true yeah, but the issue of it being the only roll besides fast roll that works is a problem and it stems from lag, the med roll isnt fast enough to get out of the way, at least which my connection (which admittedly is generally awful silly) Indeed the heavy armour example I agree is how it is being abused the most.

    Reaper I used lag as an example because it does have a part in the necessity of the DWGR. It means you can get hit when you're nowhere near the player on your screen and as a result the med roll is not adequate. Im not being unfair to FROM and asking them to deal with it.

    The whole thing with how other things are abusable is another point which you seem to neglect. Other things are just as bad but you claim the DWGR is far worse than the rest of them, which I don't think it's the case, it's just not as bad as you seem to make out :|

    also reaper is you respond again please at least space out your response, it's really hard to read through a wall of text silly


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:04 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Reaper I used lag as an example because it does have a part in the necessity of the DWGR. It means you can get hit when you're nowhere near the player on your screen and as a result the med roll is not adequate. Im not being unfair to FROM and asking them to deal with it.

    The whole thing with how other things are abusable is another point which you seem to neglect. Other things are just as bad but you claim the DWGR is far worse than the rest of them, which I don't think it's the case, it's just not as bad as you seem to make out :|

    also reaper is you respond again please at least space out your response, it's really hard to read through a wall of text silly

    Sorry, I've been out and about with the family and posting from my phone in the car trips between errands lol. I'm on the computer now so it should look a bit cleaner happy

    Anyway, I'm going to somewhat call you out for seeming to miss the point of my part about the lag. My point was is that it IS unfair to ask FROM to do something about it, since they have no control over what actually causes lag. Lag is not a part of their game's system, it's a part of information sharing and networking. Any game that uses online will have lag, and to ask a developer to "fix" something like that is something that simply cannot be done. They can code their game to maybe make it less of a problem at the cost of limiting the playerbases by location, but it's never a true fix.

    You then proceed to tell me that I neglect other abusable things, when I did address backstabs, combustion spam, and WoG as abusable mechanics that could use some attention. The issue that makes the DWGR to be worse than those mechanics is that the DWGR applies massive positives to nearly every possible build type, while those others provide situational positives to some build types. The next time you're in a PvP session, take a count of how many people use the DWGR, how many people use combustion spam, how many people use WoG spam, and how many people backstab spam. I will almost guarantee you that your count of DWGR users will he higher than all the rest, since even those who fight honorably without using spam will use the DWGR.

    In a similar situation to Jace the Mindsculptor for MTG, when 95% of the competitive community for a game uses the same mechanic, then there is something wrong with that mechanic. Or am I the only one who thinks that being forced into using a mechanic in order to stay competitive is a show of good balance?


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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:16 pm

    First thankyou it doesnt hurt my eyes to read silly now lets see.

    You said basically that I ask they do something about it, but I didn't, maybe you misread. I said it would be unfair to ask them and that I wasnt. I was stating that lag means anything slower than flip/light roll is almost useless to dodge in PvP due to lag.

    It's not their fault it's this way, but just because the ring allows players with med armour on to actually dodge sufficiently it shouldn't be knocked for that, but I do think heavy armour flipping is over the top, but Im not gonna suggest ways to balance it, I've no idea what I'm talking about there.


    Reaperfan wrote:In a similar situation to Jace the Mindsculptor for MTG, when 95% of the competitive community for a game uses the same mechanic, then there is something wrong with that mechanic. Or am I the only one who thinks that being forced into using a mechanic in order to stay competitive is a show of good balance?

    Now let me use this quote, in context with what was discussed above. Like I said, it's inbalanced due to lag meaning other rolls are not adequate, this is not entirely the fault of FROM or a balancing issue in the main, but due to lag. The balancing or fine tweaking of it would improve balance, but by no means would it make the game 'completely balanced' in the poise/movement factor, due to the lag..

    Do you get what I'm saying? It's bad but compared to the other mechanics (okay BS is made worse due to lag but spamming isn't), the lag doesn't affect those as much as it does the necessity of the DWGR. I think the same issue also necessitates BS being made more difficult to accomplish, by whatever means.


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    Chumgeyser
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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

    Post by Chumgeyser on Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:17 pm

    Has the Fight Club crowd considered voting on things like the DWGR?

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    Re: Who doesn't use the DWGR?

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