Cheap tactics in pvp and Kiln

The last few nights have been exceedingly frustrating and made me think I need to stop playing for a while as I was on the verge of shattering my controller. I'm an average player and just now getting used to all the endgame tactics in pvp. I'm still on my first character at sl200. I've finally gotten ok at backstabbing after practicing, but I think it really sucks. I've been invading as DM.

I have taken note of some really cheap tactics in the Kiln lately, although most of you here already have experienced this. There's 1 troll last 2 nights in particular that I will never beat because of a seemingly endless bag of cheap tricks. You know the type, 99 vit, Havel chest, mask, MSGS, WOG, etc. Sounds Japanese from the name.

WOG insta kills

• The junction on the bridge walkway to the boss door. Really pathetic players will hide behind the junction pillar, when the other player approaches they will spam WOG causing the other player to fall to their death. I expect it now and run right up and spam my own WOG to defeat this.
  
• The lower ledge to the right of boss door. This is the one that almost cost a controller last night. I never even knew this ledge existed until the troll jumps down there. There is no way back up out of this spot, so he starts shooting arrows at me to trick me, I start shooting arrows back. Then he spams WOG and hits me through the floor causing me to move sideways falling off the cliff. Next time I'm just going to put the controller down.
  

Other cheap tactics not specific to kiln

• Attacking a bowing player. I will never bow to an invader until they're dead simply bcause I have been attacked too many times at the end of a bow.
  
• Hiding backstab. Pretty obvious, but pathetic. Host has his phantom stand out in the open, while he is ring of fog behind a piece of debris. This actually didn't work and I saw the host right before he attacked and hit him first. Would have killed him but his phantom backstabbed me.
  

This is my first post although I have been here at the wiki since the game came out. Big thanks to everyone that contributes here it has helped make DS one of my favorite games. I think I might need to start a new character to play back at sl120.

Lol like a week ago I invaded some guy and saw an item on the bridge. I waited 10 minutes for the guy to come out since I knew it was a trap then I decided forget it. Picked the item up and there he was behind a wall with ring of fog and WoGed me off. I don't see the point really, I'd be bored out of my mind doing stuff like that.

I've been sticking to the Archives for a week now and there are actually a number of people there just looking for one on ones, they stand right by the ramp leading to the Crystal Caves. Most of them though tend to flash though, WoG spam, hide, etc. In the end it's down to you. If you don't want to get annoyed by them then use the same tactics. Some guy tried to WoG me to death the other day, I rolled away, put on GMB and spammed him 9 times with WoG until he dies. I never use it unless I'm outnumbered but if he's going to cheap then I will too you know?

Also, it's up to you to play smart, I check the sides of every doorway before I go through it with my shield up so if they are trying to RoG BS you, WoG you, or TWoP you while hiding it's pretty easy to avoid.

Yeah, Kiln is filled with people using cheap tactics and being straight up a******. This week i've actually only fought flaskers, gankers, BS-fishers etc.
There is some tricks you can use.
F.eks if you want to avoid some gankers, and gangbangers, you should use the Eyeorb near the second black knight from the entrance. You should spawn down there, and give you enough time to BC out, if you spot gangbangers. Otherwise, like Midgar said play smart.

I would recommend pvp at the Burg, people tend to host there, and there are generaly less farmers and gankers. And you should join to Fight Club here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpZeX-RCat8 This guy got some good tips and guides for countering BS and parry instructions.

Ohh, Welcome to the forums btw ahaha

Yes, the archives and the burg have become better than the kiln now, including at sl120+. 'course once everyone figures this out and the farmers move in it'll move on to somewhere else. The kiln has completely fallen apart over the last 3-4 weeks. I don't even try to pvp there anymore

BS Fishers, people who literally cannot fight so they just go for a BS instant kill. I have no problem with a person BS'ing my exposed back after I swing a big weapon to try and break their guard. I do have a problem with a poise stacking person wielding a Bandit's Knife just waiting for me to attack so they can BS me for a kill.

Another cheap tactic is hiding behind a pillar, then using WoG. The WoG goes straight through the pillar and right to your face.

Guys, let's try and keep it on topic and just talk about tactics and not other players by name.

MLGS using. I know it's a weapon, but when essentially it is the same as a BS kill unless you use a glitch, weapon switching, to get out of the stagger you just flat out die upon being hit. I actually prefer BS Fishers because usually they are easier to kill, where as if you see the MLGS you can't afford to be hit really. Though I guess that's really just a weapon complaint not a playstyle complaint. Demon spears are another one, but again that's more so lag being the issue and rendering the weapon cheap. I have never been able to even dodge that weapon.

I hate the MLGS honestly, personally I find it too slow, but so useful to pull out in situations you know you are going to be outnumbered, the stunlock has saved me plenty of times but to each their own I guess as to what is considered cheap. I personally think Int builds are one of the most underpowered in the game and the stunlock from MLGS makes it a bit more fair,

Everything in this game can be countered somehow...and the MLGS is one of them. Personally i love int builds and int builds really have three good weps, MLGS, velkas rapier, And moonlight butterfly horn

Also since someone had to bring it up, cheap tactic I hate the most? PvP 3v1 farming in the forest.

if u inaveded in the forest you know you asked for 3v1 lol

Well yes I do hunt farmers, that's kind of my job in Dark Souls these days haha.

Great Combustion kickers. It can be countered, but oh do I hate that tactic. *Shakes fist like an angry old man*

Int builds do far and away more damage than any other, to balance the rediculous damage output, spells are slow. thats not exactly underpowered. Its the same principle behind making enormous weapons swing slowly.

@OP You might have invaded someone making a legitimate run and, in that case, they were perfectly justified in doing whatever they have to to kill you.

And no build is cheap, if you don't want to play like that its fine, but its not cheap to build efficiently. They are not required to handicap themselves because you have problems with their build/playstyle.

I'll say I agree that what you list as 'cheap' things I do not personally enjoy doing and prefer other methods.

However you have to remember that there is a reason guys use cheap tactics in PvP such as WoG cliff spamming, hornets BSing etc. It's because they are effective and efficient methods. Some players wish to use every option they have to their advantage, others don't, just personal preference i think now.

"All's fair in love and war" is very applicable in Dark Souls

The guy I called troll from the last couple nights was not doing a regular run I fought him 5 times in a row, he invades, I invade. Every time I would get him down to a tiny sliver of health he run away and pulls some crap. His vitality was so high I would score plenty of hits, with a fire zweihander, only to lose no matter what.

First couple matches he runs at me right away as I'm invading, he combos Man serpent sword with ridiculous poise killing me easily. Next couple matches I get him down to a sliver of health then lose. Last match again down to a sliver of health then runs away makes me fight through all the black knights so he can jump down to that ledge and WOG me through the floor. Its just sad.

I have never seen this 'ledge' you all speak of..
I've also never found the shortcut people apparently use in the Painted World.

I never bow, one time I did was after the opponent bowed. When I was mid bow he pulled out a catalyst and OHKed me with CSS...

Forum Pirate wrote:Int builds do far and away more damage than any other, to balance the rediculous damage output, spells are slow. thats not exactly underpowered. Its the same principle behind making enormous weapons swing slowly.

@OP You might have invaded someone making a legitimate run and, in that case, they were perfectly justified in doing whatever they have to to kill you.

And no build is cheap, if you don't want to play like that its fine, but its not cheap to build efficiently. They are not required to handicap themselves because you have problems with their build/playstyle.

Hardly, I never get a hit off with any of my sorceries unless they have the reflexes of a turtle, they are ridiculously easy to dodge. Only time I actually hit someone is if they are in a narrow corridor or flasking. Hell, I see people roll straight underneath sorceries with the exception of White Dragons Breath. Actually now that I think about it I hit people more often with WDB with no lock on them then I do with any other sorcery and locking on. Compared to dex/faith or str/faith it's pretty underpowered. Faith gets a 360 radius spell that is both offensive and defensive, it does quite a lot of damage and can be used rapidy in succession. Faith builds get GMB, basically negates all magic damage, TWOP, slows your opponent to a crawl, DMB>TCC, etc. Sorceries could do 10k damage but that's irrelevant if you can't hit anyone.

But yeah that was pretty off topic now that I already wrote that lol. I still play my Int build though probably because I find it the most challenging.

Yarxov wrote:I have never seen this 'ledge' you all speak of..
I've also never found the shortcut people apparently use in the Painted World.

I never bow, one time I did was after the opponent bowed. When I was mid bow he pulled out a catalyst and OHKed me with CSS...

Lots of times I'll see people bow, then I'll bow and get killed while doing the gesture or while I buff my weapon. That's how it was before anyway, now I just buff first and don't bother with any gestures.

The ledge in Kiln is at the very end to the right of the fog door. There is a small rock at the very edge. You can jump over the small rock and land on the surface below. I don't think the developers intended it to be play space,but you can WOG people from underneath there.

@ midgar. Thats my point. Your crystal soul spear could 1shot my vit build. so couldd homing crystal soul mass. If they were also quick, no one would bother with anything else. It would be the bkga all over again.
I'm not saying it isn't tough to play an int build, i have tried it and, as you said, i never hit anyone, but the speed slow cast speed is balancing int builds obscene damage potential.

Also considered the stealth options only available to casters or int hybrids. i've been insta owned by a css caster who used hidden body, demolished by a dex/int build who hid a murakumo, and ruined by a rof wearing caster who aural decoyed all 3 rock giants in btown and killed me with css while i was preoccupied.
Thats how mages work in many things. They attack slowly and are squishy, but if they make clever use of indirect spells, or if a direct spell connects, something dies.

Forum Pirate wrote:@ midgar. Thats my point. Your crystal soul spear could 1shot my vit build. so couldd homing crystal soul mass. If they were also quick, no one would bother with anything else. It would be the bkga all over again.
I'm not saying it isn't tough to play an int build, i have tried it and, as you said, i never hit anyone, but the speed slow cast speed is balancing int builds obscene damage potential.

Also considered the stealth options only available to casters or int hybrids. i've been insta owned by a css caster who used hidden body, demolished by a dex/int build who hid a murakumo, and ruined by a rof wearing caster who aural decoyed all 3 rock giants in btown and killed me with css while i was preoccupied.
Thats how mages work in many things. They attack slowly and are squishy, but if they make clever use of indirect spells, or if a direct spell connects, something dies.

I'd rather not play that way in all honesty, it's boring as all hell. I could use Chameleon, hide, and shoot a CSS in their back as they pass me for a one shot kill, shrugs. The damage isn't all that high though without the Crown and Ring to boost your damage, removing those two and uping the speed a bit would be the best. Oh well I'll stop, really getting off topic lol.

Lol, just a touch.

On topic though, farming is the only thing i considere cheap as a pvp tactic in the kiln and, even then, i can/do win. Just takes some baiting, some hiding, and a good solid kick.

Well as bad as it is I Treat these Cheap Tactics with my own.

for example:

You backstab? > I put my back against the wall and spam pots till you are out of stamina (ive got 2500 hp, come at me bro)

You wait on the bridge (either Catacombs or Kiln) for a cheap kill? > I just log off the game ( i love the Ps3 quit option.)

"Gota meet overpowered strats with equally overpowered strats."

Back stabbing is not cheap, infact nothing in the game is cheap, not even twop. People have a habit of calling everything they lose against "cheap". Personally i bow before and after every fight, you can chose to bow or not, you can also chose to attack others when they bow. You paid for the game and you can play it how you like!

I can totally understand the frustration with this subject. I could not agree more with tactics that may be viewed and rightly so as cheap and unmanly. But as I have learned I have chosen to play a game that allows me the way I choose to play. If it is allowed in game play then it is fair play regardless of how cheap I may think they are and how unskilled my opponent I feel may be by using them. As an invader ones prime objective is to kill your target in any way possible. If it is allowed in the games mechanics then these tactics can be used. Its unfortunate that the game creators didn't invest the time to reward those with more souls for fighting with more integrity and skill. If you kill your opponent weapon against weapon then the souls gained should be substantial. If you choose to run around and hide and lure people to their deaths by unsavory tactics then maybe less souls should be gained. Or maybe invades should be on a timer which would give those that use their skill to kill their opponent fast and quick the more reward in their victory. But all this is just wishful thinking. The only ones that can change this are the game creators, and until they decide to change these things we simply have to deal with them and play the way we choose to play individually. I may curse and break many controllers because of the way people choose to play but thats just the way things are with this game. And like I said before I totally understand how people feel about the ways others may fight tactically. It makes this game I love playing just slightly flawed. Just my opin.