Why not just make make this change to Backstab

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    RailBladerX
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    Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by RailBladerX on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:38 pm

    [Scroll Down if you don't want to Read the logic and just want a bullet point idea]

    So i got to thinking, The main problem to Backstabs is the fact that they Instolock/Teleport/Stun you, generally while you are attacking (because when you swing your weapon it forces your back to them)(which on a side note is totally unrealistic.)

    Why not just make it so its just (enter # Here)% extra dmg to your Attack if you attack from Behind?

    The Main issue in any game thats game breaking is because you generally cant power threw it. In ANY fighting game, or game where 2 players battle it out, if you can't trade blows, or at least clash with something its generally Too strong for its own good (unless balanced for that nature).


    Like when you attack someone from behind, or hell the "Aft Side" of the Character you deal 50-60% more dmg, and then some daggers can be made to increase that dmg by another 40%, and then they can change the ring to make it an extra 50%.

    So trying to go for the backstabs (they way the HitBoX is set up right now) may get you some nice dmg, but you might also get dealt some serious trading Blows, and possible get staggered which generally leads to death. So now a backstab build would be fun, and skill based because trying to always get it off will most likely get you killed.

    The point:
    [instead of instantly stunning the player for the duration, Players simply do 60% more dmg when attack a player from their Aft Side, these damages can be increased with certain weapons and rings.]


    Thoughts? Btw the numbers are just a basic rundown of the idea. if i get this idea concrete enough ill send it over to the Main DarkSouls Forum.
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    Enigma5991
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Enigma5991 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:44 pm

    This sounds like a great idea. No more lagstabs would make pvp a lot smoother.
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Gol on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:50 pm

    It doesn't change the problem.
    It still makes a lot of damage so everybody would still go for backstabs ( and there will still be lagstabs because there'll still be lag).
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Reaperfan on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:52 pm

    Interesting idea. It would have to be a very specific spot so as to avoid people abusing large sweeping weapons to hit your back while standing to your side though, otherwise it would be the same story as now; players constantly lock-strafing waiting for you to attack, then they attack your back. Maybe make it so that it's based on where your character is standing in relation to the victim as opposed to tying it to hitboxes? In order to proc the damage you would actually have to be standing behind your opponent, instead of just hitting their back.


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:05 pm

    so have the hit box based on body proximity to the rear if the dudes body not weapon is 90 degrees (sides) from target, no bs maybe a regular dead angle with proper weapon , if the dudes body is 135 degrees from your front then the bs works. something like that mixed with RailBladers idea? but there still is a problem with railbladers idea... bs stunlock capability, if they it you and you stun from behind they just keep landing bs's till you die.


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by dominoboy on Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:38 pm

    I think if you're using a shield on your back, a backstab couldn't occur..
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Enigma5991 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:17 pm

    Gol wrote:It doesn't change the problem.
    It still makes a lot of damage so everybody would still go for backstabs ( and there will still be lagstabs because there'll still be lag).
    Yeahhh....no.

    Have you ever got sliced in the front while your 10 feet away? No. But that time stopping backstab animation does. It just doesn't work well in pvp.

    I miss the Demon Souls backstabbing.
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Yukon on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:27 pm

    This game is not meant to be a fighting game, its an adventure/dungeon crawler with player to player experiences. The backstabs are probably desgined with PvE in mind not PvP and in that respect they make sense. If you have ever been in a 3v1 backstabs are one of the only ways to sneak your way between a group of bangers, otherwise you take 2 claymores to the face while trying to find someones back for 10% more damage or whatever.

    The developers can't do anything about lag, but I dont think backstabs should be removed. It's just unrealistic to think they will be altered.

    EDIT: i just want to agree that I find backstab fishers annoying, but its a part of the game you just need to learn to counter them. Nothing can be done about lag, but its just a game have fun and laugh off your deaths.
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by lextune on Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:02 am

    Making a backstab impossible if you have your sheild on your back would not only be logical but would make an already great PvP experience even better.


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:57 am

    not "no back stab" other wise all farmers will two hand with grasscrests on their back, i'd say a damage cut, like 50% for medium shields and 75 or 100 for greatshields and maybe 30% for small shields.


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Enigma5991 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:07 am

    They can keep the damage. I'm fine with that. It's just the grab action that messes things up.

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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by RailBladerX on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:21 am

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:so have the hit box based on body proximity to the rear if the dudes body not weapon is 90 degrees (sides) from target, no bs maybe a regular dead angle with proper weapon , if the dudes body is 135 degrees from your front then the bs works. something like that mixed with RailBladers idea? but there still is a problem with railbladers idea... bs stunlock capability, if they it you and you stun from behind they just keep landing bs's till you die.


    yea you could easily make the hit box of the Character Stay directly behind the model. So even if the Player swings his weapon (which for the Most Part practically throws your back out for a Frontal Backstab) it wont count as a backstab.


    But the Main idea is really just so it cant Stun you, this would stop lagStabs, and Backstabs that hit you when you have already rolled away.

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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by RailBladerX on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:54 am

    Yukon wrote:This game is not meant to be a fighting game, its an adventure/dungeon crawler with player to player experiences. The backstabs are probably desgined with PvE in mind not PvP and in that respect they make sense. If you have ever been in a 3v1 backstabs are one of the only ways to sneak your way between a group of bangers, otherwise you take 2 claymores to the face while trying to find someones back for 10% more damage or whatever.

    The developers can't do anything about lag, but I dont think backstabs should be removed. It's just unrealistic to think they will be altered.

    EDIT: i just want to agree that I find backstab fishers annoying, but its a part of the game you just need to learn to counter them. Nothing can be done about lag, but its just a game have fun and laugh off your deaths.


    As i agree with your Logic think of it this way:

    Being a Game artist for some time, I have learned two things about programming. 1.) Everything (no matter the code) is possible, and 2.) if its Broken then they were too Lazy, or never expected the player base to abuse the mechanic, or for the mechanic to exist in the first place.

    Ever play SuperSmashBros withL-Canceling? yea... That was a mistake that made the game amazing, and gave it a Competitive Side (which brought Nintendo more money) for 11 years. And when they took it away from the 3rd installment it killed the game. And Guess what? Nintendo openly Stated that it was NEVER designed to be a "fighter" but a screw around game for Friends. They Clearly Did not understand the "Gamers Ego".

    But the point of above is simple -> Backstabbs can be different for players, and NPCs.
    And put simply "It's in the game" is not an excuse. I remember when in WOW the shamans windfury hit 7 times, and 1 shotted everyone or took out more then 60% of their Hp. Needless to say it got fixed.

    A game, Whether a "Fighting Game" or not, should be balanced, Fun, and above all have deep mechanics of Skilled play. This allows for games to rise above others, and adds longevity to it's game time. If your player base decides to stop playing your game, because of one mechanic slowy shooing them away... it needs fixing.... Once again I turn back to L-canceling in SuperSmashBros which prolonged the games Life for about 10 years after its initial year release. and when they removed the only glitch that made the game fun it died 4 months later.

    And lastly I do not in any way suggest getting rid of BackStabs, but simply deleteing the "UnFun" aspect of it.
    which is the insto-teleport/stun and MASSISE damage it does to players.

    Also I've never needed backstabs to take on 3 people; Just a very small Doorway, and my trusty Claymore.
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Yukon on Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:59 am

    I think the only doorway in the forest is near alvina, I don't want her to see me taking 3 lightening spears in my face, she expects great things from me winking

    I can agree that the teleportation is a pain, and with all the boosts, hornets rapiers and bandit knifes a OHKO backstab can be pretty boring play style. But in my opinion, that moment of invinsibility while backstabbing is one of the key things keeping people alive in open area PvP on a 3v1 fight. if you take out the stun, you remove that moment for the person with a disadvantage.

    If they remove that stun, they better remove stun locking too I guess? I am not a heavy fighter game aficionado, and while the community here is very opinionated towards PvP there are a vast majority of players who just want to play for the game itself, am I saying FROM should ignore the PvP players? No, but best case scenario, leave the stun, remove some of the buffs, but put in a counter ability, similar to SSB L-cancel. At this point I don't see FROM, a small company, fixing the massive lag issues that are common in player to player experiences. OR rehauling the whole game to remove or nerf backstabbing. But nor do I have a problem avoiding fishers and OHKO backstabbers, if you want to DUEL join the fightclub. If you want to be ganked be a darkwraith/darkmoon/forest hunter. And if you want to fight fishers run around human and wait for invasions.

    You can't expect the same mentality of invader/invadee in every area of the game.


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:23 pm

    jsut remove poise like in demons, all weapons could stunlock but you could also roll out of it easier.


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by Gol on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:44 pm

    Enigma5991 wrote:
    Gol wrote:It doesn't change the problem.
    It still makes a lot of damage so everybody would still go for backstabs ( and there will still be lagstabs because there'll still be lag).
    Yeahhh....no.

    Have you ever got sliced in the front while your 10 feet away? No. But that time stopping backstab animation does. It just doesn't work well in pvp.

    I miss the Demon Souls backstabbing.



    Man, that's only lag, the backstab animation has nothing to do with it.
    Even if you remove it and keep the damages there'll still be lag and you'll still get hit.

    BS in demon's souls were the same, the hitbox was just smaller.
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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by aceluby on Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:28 pm

    Gol wrote:
    Enigma5991 wrote:
    Gol wrote:It doesn't change the problem.
    It still makes a lot of damage so everybody would still go for backstabs ( and there will still be lagstabs because there'll still be lag).
    Yeahhh....no.

    Have you ever got sliced in the front while your 10 feet away? No. But that time stopping backstab animation does. It just doesn't work well in pvp.

    I miss the Demon Souls backstabbing.



    Man, that's only lag, the backstab animation has nothing to do with it.
    Even if you remove it and keep the damages there'll still be lag and you'll still get hit.

    BS in demon's souls were the same, the hitbox was just smaller.

    I'd like to see smaller hitboxes...


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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by RailBladerX on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:51 am

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:jsut remove poise like in demons, all weapons could stunlock but you could also roll out of it easier.

    As much as i can understand personal Gripes about mechanics i hate, ( like poise when you are not a beefy tank build)

    Poise is not the problem. Everyone can build for it; Beefy builds can just do it easier. but in reality Karmic justice (which was supposed to be poise for lighter builds) ended up sucking. But my Mage doesn't have a problem, and i use the wolf ring with some heavy peices. And i still do amazing dmg. and don't get stun locked.

    And Besides the flipping ninja ring Rolls seem to ignore my dmg way to much. Even if i get a solid hit it still does no dmg to them.

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    Re: Why not just make make this change to Backstab

    Post by RailBladerX on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:59 am

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:jsut remove poise like in demons, all weapons could stunlock but you could also roll out of it easier.

    As much as i can understand personal Gripes about mechanics i hate, ( like poise when you are not a beefy tank build)

    Poise is not the problem. Everyone can build for it; Beefy builds can just do it easier. but in reality Karmic justice (which was supposed to be poise for lighter builds) ended up sucking. But my Mage doesn't have a problem, and i use the wolf ring with some heavy peices. And i still do amazing dmg. and don't get stun locked.

    And Besides the flipping ninja ring Rolls seem to ignore my dmg way to much. Even if i get a solid hit it still does no dmg to them.

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