Parry a Riposte?

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    BLA1NE
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    Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:12 pm

    I was just thinking about how most fighting games that have grab attack mechanics also have grab-cancels you can defend yourself with... so why not Dark Souls? I feel there could be more to getting parried than just standing there helpless just waiting to be dealt a fatal or near-fatal hit! If you could parry their riposte, it could add to the gameplay.

    One problem I see right away, is that it could be too easy to perform. I've gotten so used to parrying (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!), that riposting has become a reflex--I don't even wait anymore, it's just L2-R1, L2-R1, etc. So in the same way, parrying someone's riposte would just become a reflex. But this might not be such a problem, since the riposte window is already pretty generous. A good dueler would just train himself to delay his riposte and mix up his riposte timing, so a reflexive riposte-parryer would miss.

    One thing I'm undecided about, though, is whether you should be able to riposte from a riposte-parry, or if it would only be a cancel move. If you could riposte, it could get really funny/ suspenseful to get into a parrying match, where two people keep parrying the other's riposte until one either lands it or breaks the chain by rolling away or doing a strong attack instead of trying for the riposte. This could also add to the strategy of riposting; you could go for the obvious riposte and risk it getting parried instinctively, or go for the slower strong attack which will mess up your opponent's timing and land a hit, albeit a weaker one than a riposte.


    And while we're on the subject of grab attacks, I think backstabs should be removed. Hits to the back should deal extra damage, but they should not be a grab attack. That way, it would be more difficult for larger weapons to achieve them (which makes sense) since their strike speed is slow, so you could get away. I just find it ridiculous that seeing your opponent's back for a split second can allow you to freeze them in place (or even teleport them back into place) while you to slowly swing your lumbering mass of iron to deal critical damage, when they would have had time to roll away 3 times by then... Especially in a laggy and imprecise (lock-on pivot) environment. Maybe only certain classes of weapons could keep the grab-backstab, like daggers, but definitely not great and ultra-great weapons.


    So what do you guys think about riposte-parrying and no backstab-grab?


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by PPG-3- on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:21 pm

    I agree with the backstab issue as it doesn't make much sense to allot the same of time for every weapon class considering the Ultra Great Swords can deal ridiculous amounts of damage during that window.

    and it would be nice to have a reversal to the parry. But seeing as parries are still rare-ish to land, due to lag, the 1 in 20 fights or so that it happens to me is fine that they get to deliver the riposte. I mean, I would be kind of harsh at that point to take away the accomplishment.
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:43 pm

    Yeah, for now parries are rare. But I'm hoping that the next souls game will have minimal lag, to the point where parrying in PvP is as faithful as parrying in PvE, or nearly. Then parrying would be more frequent, so riposte-parrying would become nearly necessary.

    For now, though, it could be useful for PvE. Some mobs can parry and, although they have tell-tale parrying stances, sometimes I'll mess up my kick and attack instead, and get parried! sad It would be good to be able to riposte-parry mobs, for the time being.


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by PPG-3- on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:46 pm

    if they made ripostes easier to land, they would have to nerf the amount of damage you can dish out. Or, like the original post, a way to dodge the parry. Parrying the parry might cause PVP battles to get caught in a loop of ripostes animations, haha.
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:47 pm

    The issue for hits to the back just dealing extra damage would be that certain weapons would be instant kills, imagine if you hit someone's back with the R2 of Ricard's.
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by befowler on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:48 pm

    This has been my complaint about backstabs, namely that not only is there no way to counter once it starts, but in terms of gameplay there's no reason for the victim to just stand there like an idiot while someone winds up on their back; it's not like they were struck or stunned or anything. Ripostes, however, I feel are more fair because you actually do take the initial step of breaking their guard to set up the riposte, plus the victim had to take an affirmative action first (namely, attack) to open themselves up to it. Backstabs don't have that, plus we all have seen how crazy and incoherent they get with lag and people backstabbing you from the side or even the front etc. Ripostes can be slightly laggy, but I've never had a riposte that simply came out of nowhere, teleported me, happened through a wall, etc.


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by exandroide on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:02 pm

    befowler wrote: Ripostes can be slightly laggy, but I've never had a riposte that simply came out of nowhere, teleported me, happened through a wall, etc.

    i'd rather get BSd than riposted. you swing your weapon, it connects and seconds later it's magically deflected and you find yourself dead...well, that sucks. pretty awesome when you land one tho
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:06 pm

    befowler wrote:Ripostes can be slightly laggy, but I've never had a riposte that simply came out of nowhere, teleported me, happened through a wall, etc.
    I've actually parried someone through a wall once! Couldn't land the riposte though... My Bandit's Knife wan't long enough! sad I don't know if I could have riposted, had I been using a longer weapon, though.


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:07 pm

    Tolvo wrote:The issue for hits to the back just dealing extra damage would be that certain weapons would be instant kills, imagine if you hit someone's back with the R2 of Ricard's.
    Hate to say it, but if someone pulls off a full volley of Ricard's R2 into your back... you probably deserve that instant death!


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:08 pm

    I mean in regards to lag it isn't impossible, just like lag can give you a backstab it can give you a rear flurry from a Ricard's, and instead of just taking half of your health away, you just flat out die.
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:19 pm

    Oh, I should have been more specific, I guess. I was talking about R1 attacks to the back would deal more damage. As you pointed out, R2 attacks should not deal extra damage, only R1 attacks (no running-R1s either). Other than the Avelyn, I don't think any weapon deals multi-hit attacks with a regular R1, and arrows and bolts don't do backstab damage anyways.


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:14 pm

    Hmm, I could possibly see a hit box issue with Dead Angle attacks possibly counting as Backstabs then.
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:15 pm

    I don't know...

    I don't think it should be a hit-box, so much as your position relative to your opponent's, when your hit lands. If you're behind him when the hit connects, it gets bonus damage--even if dead angle were to register the hit in front of their body, for example. So you could be in front of them, dead-angle-hit them in the back, but it counts as a front hit.

    I don't know how programming works though, so I don't know if this would work. I don't see why not though!


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:18 pm

    Well since Dark Souls is based off of hit boxes it would basically involve redoing the entire combat system, as well situational combat based upon dynamic figures based upon a static plane being in positions designated by the static figure, basing damage off of it would take so much effort it is ridiculous. As well lag would be ridiculous, it would probably increase the issue of lag in combat at least threefold. It isn't perfect, but I think the system they have now is fairly good. Maybe in the next Souls game ( bounce ) they could find a better way to manage BS/etc, maybe that should be a thread. What would you like to see in the next Souls game if they make one? It probably exists though haha.
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:16 pm

    Assuming they get lag under control for the next Souls game, then I'd want what I wrote in the OP! Riposte-parrying, no backstab-grab for anything bigger than a dagger, and a back hit-box for extra damage for everything else.

    I'm not even sure dead-angle would be a problem... People would cry about it, for sure! But technically the dead-angle would be hitting them in the back, so I don't see why it shouldn't count.


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:37 pm

    Hm, riposte parrying...if you added that you really would have to add the ability to parry the riposte parry. you couldnt just end it right there. I imagine it would end up something like the Dead or Alive revrsal system Where luck and skill could end you up with some super epic dueling...if the lag wasnt so terrible. I was invaded in catacombs once and the guy finally made it to where i was at the hidden bonfire, he swung, i parried and as i started the riposte he teleported onto his back and magically slid through the wall with the ladder..it was the funniest thing id seen until he messaged me trying to claim i dashboarded on him
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:47 pm

    Yeah, we definitely can't do it in Dark Souls as it is now. Hell I'm rarely ever sure I got the parry, forget about someone parrying my riposte! I parried someone today, was about to roll away before I realized I got the parry! Then I got a regular R1 attack in before getting the riposte too, so I got an extra 300 damage in before the 700 riposte, which killed him--yes! silly

    But next game... Next game, I hope there's no lag. Parry/ riposte all day like I do in PvE, that would be awesome.


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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am

    What else might be fun, combo breaker!

    A mid stagger parry, after three staggers you are free again.

    MLGS users beware! lol
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    Re: Parry a Riposte?

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:34 pm

    Yeah, that'd be good--a way to break stun-lock. Something better than switching weapons, anyways, which isn't very reliable!


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