An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Shakie666 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:06 pm

    Divine blessings are an item that shouldn't exist IMO (did From seriously think people wouldn't dupe them?) Though I guess they're handy for dealing with hackers (not that they should exist either).

    To answer the OP: I think the issue of 'honour' is the reason for the arena's existence. If DkS2 has an arena that works, then I think this issue should go away. Especially since everyone can use estus now.
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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:07 pm

    Yeah I posted a thread about the whole thing, with his video for talking point to start

    Though shakie the problem is more that you can dupe. Blessings are so rare it's balanced..


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Shakie666 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:13 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Yeah I posted a thread about the whole thing, with his video for talking point to start

    Though shakie the problem is more that you can dupe. Blessings are so rare it's balanced..
    To be honest, even if they weren't dupable, I'd still prefer it if they didn't exist. The reason is that i'll always think 'better not use it, save it for a later bit that's harder'. Then I finish the playthrough without using any, so they're effectively useless. What to do with useless items? Get rid of them.
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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:14 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:Yeah I posted a thread about the whole thing, with his video for talking point to start

    Though shakie the problem is more that you can dupe. Blessings are so rare it's balanced..
    To be honest, even if they weren't dupable, I'd still prefer it if they didn't exist. The reason is that i'll always think 'better not use it, save it for a later bit that's harder'. Then I finish the playthrough without using any, so they're effectively useless. What to do with useless items? Get rid of them.
    Yeah, it's one of those things that are just too good to use. It happens in lots of games with powerful one time use items.

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:17 pm

    TooLeet wrote:Any uploader i have came into contact with, held themselves above "non-uploaders." I have had a few instances with uploaders blowing up on me because i didn't quite agree with what they said and i let them know, which is what then comment section is for, no? 

    I ultimately have stopped watching their videos, besides Dark Project Mayhem. One of the funniest things is if you're gonna talk about tryhards, don't be a tryhard yourself. 


    But, this isn't a thread to flame uploaders. They just need to realize the viewers is what keep them moving. If you want a bunch of mindless casuls saying 'eYz LykE uR Cha0S bLaDEZ bR0" then more power to you. 
    Best not to lump us all that way you know winking.

    Granted, my YT presence in souls is very small compared to other games (most of my channel is civ IV or HOMM III/V).  I've made my opinions on the "morals" in this game known on the forum and on the channel, but turn-based strategy is not a major crossover genre with the souls experience so I'm guessing a lot of my viewers simply either didn't know the difference or weren't interested enough to comment.

    Some of the comments I got in HOMM III were a tad nasty though.  My favorite was the guy who was repeatedly downvoted while watching my LP.  I was not an elite level HOMM player at the PvP level, and won't be because I don't wish to invest the time.  However, despite the rudeness he obviously had experience.  I just took the constructive pieces of that feedback, but man did my fans rag on him big grin.

    I've never banned anyone from the channel.  I probably wouldn't, unless they were spamming ads somehow or just constantly insulting other people making comments and I noticed the pattern.  Simply telling me I'm playing terribly relative to elite PvP gamers at a specific game isn't going to get any anger from me, especially when I already knew that going in ^_^.

    Many uploaders are like me also.  And of course the ones who are famous enough to make a living of it probably can't keep up with the sheer #comments anyway.  I can't imagine what it would be like to follow comments on 100+ videos that hit a million views.  Even full time that isn't possible.  I imagine they screen similar to how a professional might a resume.

    Edit:

    I never liked items like blessings.  That includes elixers, megalixers, and other non-easily replenishable items that form a "too good to use" club.  Dupe risks aside, I struggle to think of a game that has ever necessarily been better off with such an item than it would have been without it.

    There's nothing wrong with blessings at all, though I take issue with using 3rd party materials to provide an in-game advantage.


    Last edited by TheMeInTeam on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:24 pm

    I disagree that Morality is a two way street. It doesn't matter how many people "grief you", it does not give you an excuse to lower your moral standard.

    Fight how you want to be fought. IMO, its really that simple. And, remember as Rynn said, it is just a game. Don't get upset because one of the 6 billion people in this world, someone you will likely NEVER meet, "wronged you".


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Rynn on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:25 pm

    TooLeet wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:I just don't think being humble in your opinions is something that goes with being what they probably see as being a pillar of the dark souls community as an uploader.

    I saw another video of his when he was talking about divine blessings, then near the end pops one himself. That video gave me all I needed to know what he's like
    Wait, did he seriously like go into a video about how divine blessings are bad, and then use them while making the video?
    Yup. There was a thread not too long ago about it. I believe Serious actually posted it himself? But yeah. "Divine blessings blah blah blah, hacking blah blah blah (pops divine blessing) blah blah blah"
    He also says, somewhat realizes, that this is hypocritical of him, and hopefully he goes through with then no longer doing it.
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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Leet on Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:10 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    TooLeet wrote:Any uploader i have came into contact with, held themselves above "non-uploaders." I have had a few instances with uploaders blowing up on me because i didn't quite agree with what they said and i let them know, which is what then comment section is for, no? 

    I ultimately have stopped watching their videos, besides Dark Project Mayhem. One of the funniest things is if you're gonna talk about tryhards, don't be a tryhard yourself. 


    But, this isn't a thread to flame uploaders. They just need to realize the viewers is what keep them moving. If you want a bunch of mindless casuls saying 'eYz LykE uR Cha0S bLaDEZ bR0" then more power to you. 
    Best not to lump us all that way you know winking.
    That's why i edited it bud. silly

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Sneezer on Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:30 am

    Uploaders are just other players with a louder voice, a lot of them seem to forget this, and think that their opinion is worth more than another's. 

    I didn't watch the video, but I'm sure I've seen it. All I remember is that I didn't like Foxeo from the start. 

    The only uploader I like that spouts his view on such things Is jblackmel, he's humble, very objective, and very fair, and not a hypocrite.

    The only opinion of morality in Dark Souls is a non-opinion, there are personal preferences, and guidelines.

    The fact that Dark Souls even allows us to have such discussions is a testament to its greatness.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:53 am

    morality in a competitive game is irrelivant, and its extremely frustrating when people try to shove their fake morals down my throat. its either outside preset rules, either the games or in a prearranged formal setting, or its fair game. if you don't like it, sucks for you. dc next time, or just ask me to leave.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:30 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:morality in a competitive game is irrelivant, and its extremely frustrating when people try to shove their fake morals down my throat. its either outside preset rules, either the games or in a prearranged formal setting, or its fair game. if you don't like it, sucks for you. dc next time, or just ask me to leave.
    There is only one rule I would shove down peoples throats.
    Do not cheat to gain an unfair advantage. Don't have infinite HP, or hacked gear, or a pile of 99 divine blessings you spam mid fight, but so long as you're within the realm of what is supposed to be possible in the game, You are fine.

    Cheating, even in a video game, shows a lower level of respect for your fellow human, and yourself. It's disrespectful to yourself offline (feel free to disrespect yourself though), and it's disrespectful of your fellow human being to shove such an experience upon them. We teach kids at a young age to follow the rules of a sport, be it soccer, or baseball, whatever, and people think it's fine to break the rules just because they can't see the person they are now playin with.

    That's why I think hacking and such is morally incorrect, even in a game, but aside from that, you're just shoving your own opinions in others faces, and claiming you have the right because you're morally superior.
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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Leet on Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:40 am

    This comes up too much on here. We obviously all have respect for eachother when we arrange fight clubs or duels. And we obviously know all that goes out the window with random invasions.

    As an example i duel Rant. We respect each other during the duels and don't heal etc. But when we invade each other, anything goes. And we both understand. He's invaded me in the catacombs and i used estus. There was no complaining. It was a random invasion and he just so happen to invade me. He was there to kill me any way possible.

    There was no complaining about it. That's how it is. We all know this. Bring up morality all the time is the same as debating Mega Mule. It just gets tiring. 


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Reaperfan on Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:42 am

    Preface:  I'm posting this before watching the video, as I don't feel like waiting 30 minutes before posting my main thoughts.  I will watch the video after I post, though, and if it happens to change some perspective of mine edits will ensue.

    I feel the problem is that this game was never meant to be a competitive game.  In something like Street Fighter, you don't have people who say "you should taunt at the start of every round to say you're ready" or "you shouldn't use grab attacks too much."  There is no real "single-player" and the game was entirely designed to be a self-contained competitive environment, so the "morality" is understood as no more or less than the mechanics of the game itself.  Things like how you don't have to bow to show you're ready in Street Fighter, it's just expected that you're ready when the word FIGHT shows up.

    In Dark Souls though, since it's NOT entirely a self-contained competitive environment, PvP is treated differently.  Invasions are an experience unique to Dark Souls.  A competitive match that was deliberately designed to be imbalanced since it's primary function was to be to interrupt a single-player experience.  So you have two standards for PvP in this game, invasions and duels, as opposed to simply having duels like in most other competitive games.

    If you ask me, the problems with "morality rules" like bowing and backstabs and such become evident when applied in reverse to another competitive scene.  I wouldn't expect my opponent in a Street Fighter match to use a taunt at the start of each round and I wouldn't expect them to deliberately not throw Hadokens.  I wouldn't ask, nor expect, my opponents to purposefully neglect part of their character's game.  If you want to take Dark Souls competitively, then take the game and its mechanics at face value and use them to try and win.

    PS: Cheating is, of course, morally incorrect. Do everything you can within the rules of the game to win, but don't change or ignore the rules.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:01 am

    hence my rules point. hacking is working outside the rules of the game, thus cheating. its still not a moral thing imo, i just don't want to deal with it, its cheating.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:55 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:hence my rules point. hacking is working outside the rules of the game, thus cheating. its still not a moral thing imo, i just don't want to deal with it, its cheating.
    I would argue that there is a very real immoral aspect to cheating, on this basis:

    1. People who are playing dark souls without cheating are doing so with the intention to have a good experience with known rules going into the game.

    2. When fighting against a cheater, one is forcibly removed from playing dark souls and is instead playing a different game, often one that is impossible to win.

    3. Even if this causes the victim no emotional distress whatsoever, it still wastes time as this person is generally not trying to fight cheaters.

    Wasting people's time, sometimes a considerable amount (xbox has no way to avoid being matched with confirmed hackers, avoiding/reporting them does nothing and you will still invade them), is a clear negative impact on other people. Actively breaking rules in order to prevent other people from playing is pretty objectively morally suspect. When taking a definition such as this http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morals it's pretty hard to fit actively wasting the time of others and removing their ability to play the game as designed temporarily into "conforming to the rules of right conduct".

    Well, cheating in the general sense tends to be immoral or at least amoral by definition.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Leet on Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:22 pm

    Whenever i run into hackers i just laugh at their life.

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:50 pm

    Check it.
    This is what I think.

    If you paid your money for the game you do whatever the hell you want with it. You paid your money to enjoy this game.. by god please enjoy it, play it the way you want to.

    I fight according to my opponent(s) and where we are. If I can tell someone is looking for a "duel" then I will oblige them with a fight bestowed with all the "honor" anyone could ask for.. and I always enjoy it. If I'm on a darkwaith (for example) I will jump into the frey according (again) to the circumstances put in front of me.

    Keep in mind that dark souls was never supposed to be fair. Humanity is like cocaine to some npc's and players alike AND that's how it should be... don't deny your racing heart rate and excitement when your in a real scrappy fight where you know either he or you is gonna get done in my the dirtiest tactics possible... it's great. and I'm also not gonna deny my heart rate for the "honorable" fights I relish and enjoy. something is to be said of both sides...

    I forgot the rest of what i was gonna say sooo..
    Yeah.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:52 pm

    Zeta Prime wrote:Check it.
    This is what I think.

    If you paid your money for the game you do whatever the hell you want with it. You paid your money to enjoy this game.. by god please enjoy it, play it the way you want to.

    I fight according to my opponent(s) and where we are. If I can tell someone is looking for a "duel" then I will oblige them with a fight bestowed with all the "honor" anyone could ask for.. and I always enjoy it. If I'm on a darkwaith (for example) I will jump into the frey according (again) to the circumstances put in front of me.

    Keep in mind that dark souls was never supposed to be fair. Humanity is like cocaine to some npc's and players alike AND that's how it should be... don't deny your racing heart rate and excitement when your in a real scrappy fight where you know either he or you is gonna get done in my the dirtiest tactics possible... it's great. and I'm also not gonna deny my heart rate for the "honorable" fights I relish and enjoy. something is to be said of both sides...

    I forgot the rest of what i was gonna say sooo..
    Yeah.
    You payed for the game. But I don't think the Developers intended for hacking to be allowed. It's just something that comes with any game. Hacking is still wrong though.

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:53 pm

    They allowed it to go on pc so.. they knew it was coming.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:12 pm

    its a violation of the tos and a bannable offence. wether they knew it was coming or not.


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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:52 pm

    and if they aren't enforcing the rules then why should people follow them? if they really cared that people were hacking I'd think they would've done more about it. it's just what happens when your going to open it up to such an environment. and just to get it clear i'm not an advocate for hacking or anything it just seems so inevitable that I don't think people should be complaining about it that much.



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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Leet on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:21 pm

    This is a thread about morality. Are you surprised a debate about hacking would come up?

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:30 pm

    I'm not surprised that it is brought up, I'm surprised that the debate is still continuing.
    People will hack.. what can you do about it?

    1. Don't put the game on the platform where it will be hacked up
    2. enforce rules about hacking
    3. (I can't think of anything else right now.)

    since Dark souls was put on the pc and, there have been next to know enforcement on the laws of hacking in the game.. people should know what they are in for. We all know hacking is a major issue.. that doesn't mean it has to be brought up in half the topics on the forum.



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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:33 pm

    Zeta Prime wrote:I'm not surprised that it is brought up, I'm surprised that the debate is still continuing.
    People will hack.. what can you do about it?

    1. Don't put the game on the platform where it will be hacked up
    2. enforce rules about hacking
    3. (I can't think of anything else right now.)

    since Dark souls was put on the pc and, there have been next to know enforcement on the laws of hacking in the game.. people should know what they are in for. We all know hacking is a major issue.. that doesn't mean it has to be brought up in half the topics on the forum.

    It will be hacked up no matter the console. It just takes time. And dark souls wasn't originally on the p.c. FromSoft actually put it on there in response to huge petition.

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    Re: An opinion on Fairness and Morality with PvP.

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:36 pm

    ^ true.

    I knew it wasn't originally on pc im just saying that the pc people should have known what they where headed into when they bought it. if I'm playing a game on pc I'm ready for the inevitability of a multitude of hackers.

    Iv been playing dark souls since day one and maybe I'm just lucky but i haven't really fought any hackers.. unless you call that glitch with Twop hacking.. but I think it was just a glitch.


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