Your tips for Mastering DKS

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    Qyntius
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Qyntius on Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:16 am

    Today one of my friends who just bought Dark Souls reached a sl near one of my pvp Characters. I immediately ordered him to Darkroot forest where I gave him the items I deemed he needed including a lot of unupgraded weapons and then their fully upgraded versions. We started off with some all out duels, and then continued to the lessons. I showed him everything first then he tried to replicate.

    1. Deadangling; We did this with unupgraded weapons. I hold down block and he starts his attack and turns away before the attack hit me making it hit through my block. We did this with a lot of different weapons and angles. Then some duels with upgraded weapons focusing on achieving this.

     2. Combos; Essentially the same as deadangling, I hold down block for the first hit, and then try to roll, block or parry the consecutive hits. The point was to keep me in a lock for as long as possible we used weapons like Murakumo, claymore, zweihander, trying to alternate between straight hits, deadangles, and 2handing. This was a lot of fun and made for some epic combo's (especially with the murakumo). We did some full duels after this as well.

    3. Backstabbing; We did sprint locked backstabs and unlocked backstabs on both moving and still targets. It really helped him find the angle and understand when you can punish opponents (parry, running attacks, standing still). Again duels.

    4. Parrying; Basically I would have him raise his shield, and do three attacks and tell him to keep his block up and not parry, but say out loud on skype when the parry should hit. This gives him a physical respresentation on his screen (because of the lag I can't say "when my weapon is this far") of when to press the parry. Then he would try to hit those timings after seeing it a few times. At first he failed miserably, but in time he was making 5-6 parries in a row. Again duels.

    Basically we went over this in the course of about 90 minutes, and his dueling just improved by an incredible amount. I need to mention that he had no pvp experience whatsoever, so he was going to get better either way just by fighting. Nonetheless, I was impressed with his ability to punish backstab, and deadangle combo me to death on a few occasions. He was too scared of parrying me in the real duels just yet though, so we would need to work on that some more.

    I would actually advocate using unupgraded weapons or less upgraded weapons over the calamity ring because it changes your playing style too much. With the ring you will play incredibly careful because you have a chance of getting caught in a backstab, parry, stagger that will end the duel. This eliminates high risk/high reward play, which I believe is a good inidicator of skill. If you can't practice playing agressive, or certain hard to land moves because fear of dying you will get stuck in the turtling, dwgr, backstab style of playing. To practice I would say make fights longer, not shorter.


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by SlintEastwood on Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:31 am

    ^ Backstabs counter all four techniques Qynt listed
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:17 am

    and all of them counter backstabs.


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Qyntius on Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:36 am

    SlintEastwood wrote:^ Backstabs counter all four techniques Qynt listed
    You should specify how backstab counters any of these things. Backstab is a move, an attack, similar to pressing R1 for a normal attack. You can lock-on sprint backstab a failed parry. you can back step-backstab (lol) a dead angle attempt, and you can roll backstab a stun attempt. It is only a punishment on a failed attempt. In your words a r1 poise breaking normal attack would also counter all these techniques.

    It sounded like you tried to say that the fact that backstab is in the game nullifies all these techniques and I wasted my time teaching them to my friend, but if you are being backstabbed during all these then the technique was executed poorly, or done in the wrong setting.

    I could say the same by saying, well any time you try to backstab me, I will just unlock and turn parry! Therefore backstab is useless. Makes no sense, it is all about timing, situation, and even luck.

    On another note, I only adresssed learning Dark Souls. I have not delved into the mastering of Dark Souls that deep yet because I am still learning the basics of pvp that I desribed above, but I can imagine that doing SL1 runs will help your mastery and knowledge of the pve bosses, and playing very aware will help you in pvp, with that I mean look at your enemies weapons every duel, memorize their range, find out how lag influences the game, learn the frames in which you can hit someone during a roll. Simply playing a lot will not help you master the game, you need to be aware of what you are up against and view every fight as another experiment or learning experience.

    here's a picture for reading all that: 


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:28 am

    The word "mastering" means to acquire complete knowledge of a skill or subject. With a game like Dark Souls, in most cases lag comes into play. You can have all the knowledge in the world of how all the mechanics work and what to do in certain situations, but sometimes you can succumb to the lag itself.

    I don't think you can "master" Dark Souls. There's a lot of variables. You can obliterate in PvP, yes. Master, not so much.


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by AnimeRamen on Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:20 pm

    I don't know about lag haha. Even when the enemy is skipping several frames and appearing in random places, you can still trace their movements. Just think a few seconds ahead and predict their move. Mastery of lag completed (though sometimes they attack an invisi-you, so that's is unavoidable).

    Also, I believe a mastery of dark souls in terms of mechanics and knowledge is possible. However, when put into practical use (pvp) outside game knowledge of predicion, baiting, etc. comes into play.

    Lag should not be taken into consideration of mastering DKS though....or not in my opinion
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:43 pm

    Why not? It is a regular occurrence in the game. We're always compensating for even the slightest lag. An obvious one, parrying. PvE parrying and PvP parrying is two different things because of lag. If they're was no lag whatsoever (which there always is SOME) we could parry the same way we do in PvE. When servers come into play on a p2p system, you can't escape all lag 100%.


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by AnimeRamen on Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:18 pm

    I can see "normal" lag being taken into consideration (parry timing, backstabs, and slightly wider hitboxes). I meant that wild lag should not be taken into consideration (warping, standing still, disconnecting, etc.)
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:18 pm

    Yeah, i wasn't talking about wild lag. You can't count that. But even minimal lag can very slightly. You can completely take lag out of the equation. I just don't think "mastering" is the right word. I duel with very good players. Possibly some of the best. Between our little circle on the forum and a couple twitchbros i've played with are pretty good.

    But there's just so many variables with Dark Souls to say someone has mastered it. There's always gonna be something you can't help in certain situations. Even extremely good players can succumb to not so good players. Sh!t happens, ya know? 


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by AnimeRamen on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:28 pm

    Mastery of mechanics is possible. I've fought a few people that you can not touch because there is literally no chance due to distance, swing speed, etc. All variables are taken into consideration. Only way to fight is to go "beyond" game mechanics and predict moves
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:34 pm

    AnimeRamen wrote:Mastery of mechanics is possible. I've fought a few people that you can not touch because there is literally no chance due to distance, swing speed, etc. All variables are taken into consideration. Only way to fight is to go "beyond" game mechanics and predict moves
    Ok then, what if we put two of those people up against each other? Would they just never hit?

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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:37 pm

    Yup. I've ran into a few people like that. I also run into players who simply cannot touch me. It's really situational. Different decisions during a match end up with different outcomes, obviously. So it really depends.

    But, mastering Dark Souls is simply understanding every mechanic and putting those mechanics into play during a match. That's really all there is to it. Without a 100% understanding you're at a disadvantage. 

    Obviously it's different if you're someone who just plays for fun and to pass time. Not everyone cares about being better than one another. Some people just have fun playing the game period. But, that's a topic for another time.

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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:40 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:
    AnimeRamen wrote:Mastery of mechanics is possible. I've fought a few people that you can not touch because there is literally no chance due to distance, swing speed, etc. All variables are taken into consideration. Only way to fight is to go "beyond" game mechanics and predict moves
    Ok then, what if we put two of those people up against each other? Would they just never hit?


    Obviously they would hit. Someone would have to make a mistake or correctly bait. I really don't understand.

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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by SirArchmage on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:50 pm

    How to master Dark Souls. All in one gif!
    Spoiler:


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by AnimeRamen on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:14 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:
    AnimeRamen wrote:Mastery of mechanics is possible. I've fought a few people that you can not touch because there is literally no chance due to distance, swing speed, etc. All variables are taken into consideration. Only way to fight is to go "beyond" game mechanics and predict moves
    Ok then, what if we put two of those people up against each other? Would they just never hit?
    ...the matches just take really, really long if both people are serious...trust me
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:18 pm

    SirArchmage wrote:How to master Dark Souls. All in one gif!
    Spoiler:


    That was bad.


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by SlintEastwood on Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:08 am

    Qyntius wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:^ Backstabs counter all four techniques Qynt listed
    You should specify how backstab counters any of these things. 
    Well with deadangles it should be obvious. A person attempting a crossup gives his opponent his back. Landing a Clay 1hr1 only to get hornet bsed with an Estoc isn't worth it. Parrying locks you in place and leaves you quite vulnerable for a bs, and more combo happy players can succumb to a toggle bs fairly easily. Sure, you can use instant tracking parries to counter a bs attempt but for the most part this is incredibly impractical and the risk far outweighs the reward.

    If someone wants to get good at DaS PvP, then I recommend they do almost nothing but work on bs offense and defense, because once two players are both skilled and serious enough that's what Dark Souls PvP comes down to. Backstabs. I do understand that most people will think otherwise, but then again, most people do not have a lot of experience fighting skilled Estoc users.
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by FinPeku on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:24 am

    SlintEastwood wrote:If someone wants to get good at DaS PvP, then I recommend they do almost nothing but work on bs offense and defense, because once two players are both skilled and serious enough that's what Dark Souls PvP comes down to. Backstabs. I do understand that most people will think otherwise, but then again, most people do not have a lot of experience fighting skilled Estoc users.
    Being very good at the backstab game will get you far, but it's not all. Or, i guess it depends on what you mean by bs defense. But i think it's even more important to know when you can safely attack your opponent and deal small damage. Not only to know when you can go for those high damage backstabs. I think that's what makes the chaos blade so great weapon. It's not reliant on backstabs at all because most of it's attacks are very safe to use if you know the range well. I guess same could be said about some other weapons.

    It's true that i haven't fought many very good estoc players. Maybe because people usually don't want to turtle. Although i did almost beat Enisle with murakumo and a broken controller silly You know Enisle from youtube, right?


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by AnimeRamen on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:39 am

    ^I haven't meet a great youtube pvper yet. Most of them are good so it is not a bash but not amazing.
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:58 am

    I don't think considering toggle BS as a legit counter is helpful- but I notice you missed poise BS off that list


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by FinPeku on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:25 am

    Serious_much wrote:I don't think considering toggle BS as a legit counter is helpful
    Do you mean "toggle bs is not legit counter because toggle escape was not intended" or did i misunderstood something?

    If I didn't, then I would have to say that the most active pvp community has widely accepted toggle escape and all the techniques related to it as legit tactics. If we're talking about mastering dark souls and becoming as good player as you possibly can (at pvp) then condemning mechanics that were possibly not intended will do you no good.


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:47 am

    I know everyone accepts it, I just still dislike the misuse of gameplay glitches silly


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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by SlintEastwood on Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:47 am

    FinPeku wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:If someone wants to get good at DaS PvP, then I recommend they do almost nothing but work on bs offense and defense, because once two players are both skilled and serious enough that's what Dark Souls PvP comes down to. Backstabs. I do understand that most people will think otherwise, but then again, most people do not have a lot of experience fighting skilled Estoc users.
    Being very good at the backstab game will get you far, but it's not all. Or, i guess it depends on what you mean by bs defense. But i think it's even more important to know when you can safely attack your opponent and deal small damage. Not only to know when you can go for those high damage backstabs. I think that's what makes the chaos blade so great weapon. It's not reliant on backstabs at all because most of it's attacks are very safe to use if you know the range well. I guess same could be said about some other weapons.

    It's true that i haven't fought many very good estoc players. Maybe because people usually don't want to turtle. Although i did almost beat Enisle with murakumo and a broken controller silly You know Enisle from youtube, right?
    The Chaos Blade is one of the best weapons in the game, but there's no point in using it against a good turtle. Also, yes, I have seen Enisle's videos. From what I've seen he leaves way too many openings.
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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Leet on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:15 am

    You can't say "He leaves way too many openings" judging from some youtube videos. I leave openings on purpose too. It's called a bait. Without playing him first hand you have no idea how he would play against you.

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    Re: Your tips for Mastering DKS

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:34 pm

    there's no point in much of anything against a good turtle, it just comes down to baiting and patience.

    while i'm at it, bsing is incredibly easy to defend against 98% of the time, in my experience. there are specific ranges and positions where a bs is viable, and they're easily baitable/punishable if you know when the enemy is positioned for one. this coming from a mid rollung str main.


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