Buffing for duels

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    How many buffs is ok?

    [ 7 ]
    23% [23%] 
    [ 4 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 5 ]
    17% [17%] 
    [ 2 ]
    7% [7%] 
    [ 8 ]
    27% [27%] 
    [ 4 ]
    13% [13%] 

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    ScottyDoesKnow
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    Buffing for duels

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:25 pm

    Just curious as to what people think is acceptable for duels. Obviously this is all subjective as to what each person thinks is fine, I just want to see what people think.

    Personally I define a buff as:

    1. Homing sorceries (soul masses and pursuers)
    2. Replenishment
    3. Power within
    4. Weapon buffs
    5. Lightning resin

    I allow one buff (not including grass) and then I'm rushing them if they try to do more than that. Some things like a soul mass + weapon buff is on the edge for me, but I'd put grassing + soul mass + weapon buff over the line even though I don't really count grass. I also think pursuers + weapon buff is too far, so you can see that it's a pretty fuzzy line for me.

    I'm curious as to whether people have similar (if differently drawn) lines on what's ok, or if people think I'm being a jerk and that all buffs are fine. Let me know.
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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:32 pm

    I don't allow them to people to cast the homing sorceries. They are a direct damage spell, and I consider it the equivalent of allowing someone one free chance to attack me. It's unneeded. 

    I will allow them to do anything else though. They can Power within, weapon buff, and then heal the health they lost from Power Within for all I care. (Reasoning behind Power Within first, and healing, is if you don't get hit, then you're guaranteed to stay alive. I used to do this often to increase damage potential without having to worry as much about killing asap)


    Last edited by Soul of Stray Demon on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:33 pm

    I agree, one spell buff + grass is plenty. Any more is getting greedy. I consider hcsm and persuers as hostile spells... no free casts there.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Leet on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:39 pm

    It doesn't really matter. If you wanna buff, then buff. Just don't expect much love if your weapon does a stupid amount of damage.


    Last edited by TooLeet on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:51 pm

    Host's rules. Personally, I see nothing wrong with buffs. I also don't like the condescension toward people who buff.

    About homing sorceries being a buff, that doesn't make sense to me. It is not a buff it is an attack. They are both easy to dodge. And, the Pursuers takes up 2 slots. There is nothing wrong with those sorceries. Period. Use them as much as you want. I can dodge them both and you'll waste your time and spell slots by using them. Now, if you do the HCSM glitch, that is another story (and topic).

    That being said, I don't buff too much.

    If my opponent has a +15 weapon, I don't buff. I used to, but I would slap some lightning on it, they would do the same, and we were now in the same boat. But, I will buff against weapons that are not buffable (MLGS for example).


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:59 pm

    I'm not trying to be condescending at all towards people who buff. It's completely fine. I buff my weapon when I feel the need.   Imo 1 buff + grass is plenty. No need for something like PW on top of SLB... it's just silly damage.

    I don't think think anyone has a problem with hcsm / persuers. It was just a question of weather the community considers it a buff or not.


    Last edited by DigitaLinsanitY on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:01 pm

    reim0027 wrote:Host's rules.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with buffs.  I also don't like the condescension toward people who buff.  

    About homing sorceries being a buff, that doesn't make sense to me.  It is not a buff it is an attack.  They are both easy to dodge.  And, the Pursuers takes up 2 slots.  There is nothing wrong with those sorceries.  Period.  Use them as much as you want.  I can dodge them both and you'll waste your time and spell slots by using them.  Now, if you do the HCSM glitch, that is another story (and topic).

    That being said, I don't buff too much.  

    If my opponent has a +15 weapon, I don't buff.  I used to, but I would slap some lightning on it, they would do the same, and we were now in the same boat.  But, I will buff against weapons that are not buffable (MLGS for example).
    Oh, I'm fine if they use the homing sorceries. I'm just not going to stand back and let them do it like I do with weapon buffs.

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Aigaios on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:05 pm

    I had a conversation with someone about this recently. I invaded a guy, we both bowled then he casted GMB and SLB, while casting SLB I punished him with a BS and after I killed him he had a little rant at me. We then started dueling, I dont really duel a lot but what I noticed is that he used grass while really close to me and I punished him for it and then he sent me another little rant. We then talked a bit.

    This is what I dont understand, as far as the wiki goes the Green Blossom increases stamina recover by a massive 93% it is by far one of the most used personal buffs in the game, it is really fast to use and really powerful. So why is it that when dueling i'm expected to let my opponent use it when if I were to use Replenishment anyone would go straight for a punish?


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:08 pm

    Not directing the "condescending" at anyone in particular. Just, in general, don't look down on people who want to buff.

    As far as HCSM - the first one is free. I consider it getting your toon ready to fight. I will not let them cast it during a fight (if I can avoid it). I will let them regrass though.

    PW + SLB? Go ahead and do it, but get ready for the most boring 1 minute of your life as I kite you endlessly while your health drops.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Leet on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:11 pm

    HCSM and Pursuers are more of a defensive spell. They're not meant to do a ton of damage (even though they can) but i don't remember the last time i was hit by either unless someone was glitching them. Which is stupid anyway and you can't really be blamed for that.

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:14 pm

    I agree. They can be good defensive spells, since they are fairly easy to avoid. Very few people will rush you with them active, or while you are casting.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Seignar on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:15 pm

    Personally, I don't expect anybody's mercy when buffing. When I buff, I expect them to try a backstab or squash my skull while I'm stuck in the frames. However, I don't follow suit. When someone buffs, my body seems to immediately halt, as if I am obligated to let them buff, especially when it's easy to punish (probably a case of "if I punish, I win; too boring).

    Usually, after a bow, fight starts, do as you please.

    On the topic of Souls Masses, does don't count as buffs. You try pursuers up close or far away and you better expect a backstab.

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Aigaios on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:17 pm

    TooLeet wrote:HCSM and Pursuers are more of a defensive spell. They're not meant to do a ton of damage (even though they can) but i don't remember the last time i was hit by either unless someone was glitching them. Which is stupid anyway and you can't really be blamed for that.
    Just wondering, what do you think is stronger HCSM or Pursuers? I know that Pursuers gets a lot more hate then HCSM but I dont see why, while Pursuers can be annoying they are easy to avoid but with HCSM IMO you have a higher chance of getting hit because of lag.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:21 pm

    I don't mind the re-grass in the middle of a fight. I do get a little irked when my opponent does it in a situation that kills the flow of battle.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:23 pm

    @seig - I don't agree that the bow officially starts the fight. If you're doing a duel, you wait until your opponent is ready. It is obvious when they are ready. A bow doesn't necessarily signify that.

    I normally bow first, to signify I'm here for a duel. Plus, IMO, it is dumb to buff, grass, then bow. That just wastes time for your grass and buff.

    @Aig - pursuers is way stronger. In one of my toons, it can do over 2,200 damage if they connect. Even with the lag for HCSM, it really doesn't affect them too much. Not even with the HCSM gliltch does it even come close.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Seignar on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:43 pm

    @seig - I don't agree that the bow officially starts the fight. If you're doing a duel, you wait until your opponent is ready. It is obvious when they are ready. A bow doesn't necessarily signify that.
    But, isn't the bow -aside from a courtesy- a signal indicating that you're ready to fight? That is how I always saw the bow.

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:05 pm

    Aigaios wrote:We then started dueling, I dont really duel a lot but what I noticed is that he used grass while really close to me and I punished him for it and then he sent me another little rant. We then talked a bit.
    Ya I've never understood anyone expecting to be able to regrass in the middle of a fight. It seems to be a thing where a lot of people allow it, but I won't stop attacking because you decided to rebuff in the middle of a fight.

    Seignar wrote:
    @seig - I don't agree that the bow officially starts the fight. If you're doing a duel, you wait until your opponent is ready. It is obvious when they are ready. A bow doesn't necessarily signify that.
    But, isn't the bow -aside from a courtesy- a signal indicating that you're ready to fight? That is how I always saw the bow.
    Whenever I duel it seems to be more of a hello, and an agreement to duel. Some people buff up before, some after. Doesn't seem to be an overwhelming majority either way.
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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by SirArchmage on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:06 pm

    I allow a person whatever buff they want to do before the fight starts after we have both bowed, or even if we didn't bow. Go ahead and slap on your random adjustments you needs, but when we start fighting I am not letting you do that again. I will hit people while they are grassing with no guilt at all. You wish to pause in the middle of the fight? Yeah.......Ha ha ha.......No. I will gladly take the free backstab. And yes, I see it as one-sided that grassing is an acceptable, non-punishable thing to do in the middle of the fight while other things are not. This is mainly for dueling, but even in random invasions I'll let them do whatever they want before we fight. I will probably be doing my stuff with a tree in front or behind me, but still.

    And since when is HCSM a buff? If people used it the same "don't punish me while I cast this" way that green blossoms are used it could turn into a pretty useless fight. Cast, opponent dodges, cast, opponent dodges, cast, opponent dodges.......Yeah. So expect punishment from me for that as well.

    TL:DR Any amount of buffing is okay before the fight, expect a bs while buffing during the fight.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Leet on Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:35 pm

    There is a little group of us PSN players to regularly duel. Usually it starts as 2 or 3 people but as more people get on it ends up as a little FC. Anyways, only a couple buff, period. Unless their build is meant to buff, we really don't buff. I am not counting grass. Most of us grass besides a few. If we're in the middle of a match and we both grassed at the start of the match, we both will grass in the middle of the match also if we have been going long enough to run out of the buff. 

    But, if at the start of a match only one of us grasses, usually you can only re-grass if you can get away with it. For example, Rant doesn't grass. If i'm dueling him and i grass at the start of the match, i won't re-grass in the middle of it. If i do, i don't expect him to just let me, which is why i just don't do it (i probably have before but it's not an everytime thing.) 

    It really depends on who you're playing. Obviously everyone has the respect to let you do whatever you wanna do at the start of the match, but i don't expect everyone to have the same in the middle of the match. I kind of see that as for example, re-CMW buffing in the middle of the match (obviously not the same, but you understand.) 



    Grass eaters lets other grass eaters eat grass in the middle of the match. I don't expect non-grass eaters to let the grass eaters, eat their grass in the middle of the match. Ya dig? That's how we do it in our little circle of duelers at least. (referring to re-grassing.)

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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:53 pm

    I let them buff only if its a prearranged duel with those rules, otherwise they eat an attack, either a running attack or a crossbow bolt most of the time.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Sneezer on Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:21 am

    Most buffs are too fast to punish even if you wanted to at the start, so it doesn't usually matter if you allow grass but not HCSM, or some such.

    Grass is fine, both at the start and during. Just don't grass in my face expecting to not get hit, you roll away if you want to grass.
    I'm fine with replenishment at the start, it's part of their build after all. 
    When it comes to weapon buffs like SLB, DMB, and CMW or Power Within, I won't like it, but I won't punish you for it in a set up duel. Just don't expect me to fight you like you're not using it, I'll kite and BS to my heart's content so long as you're swinging hot death at me.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Aigaios on Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:16 am

    The only buff that I would consider fast to use is the Green Blossom and that is because it's a consumable even then it can still be punished with  BS. All the other buffs like Power Within, Replenishment, Great Magic Barrier and the weapon buffs have a pretty slow casting time.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Sneezer on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:06 am

    "Too fast to punish at the start" of the duel, that is.
    Unless you start close to the other player, most buffs can be used with impunity.
    But I suppose that depends on the size of the area, and how wary they are of you.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:11 am

    power within is actually really fast. still, crossbow.


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    Re: Buffing for duels

    Post by xenon_nobelium on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:24 am

    i don't care about grass, i don't use it, pretty overrated if you ask me. that said, item use is is the only prefight buff i let pass (resin, grass). if you start casting anything it's on! i force this rule on myself though, before i buff my weapon (what i never do anyway^^) or cast pursuers/HCSM (no buff imo) i'll fire an arrow/offensive spell in their direction so i have to stay on my toes..hate the concept of free potetial dmg.


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