Time limits on summons concern me

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    Myztyrio
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Myztyrio on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:19 pm

    Marino. wrote:Why ? You haven't even tried it .
    And from what i see it's better than ever since now it's actually Co-oping instead of clearing the whole level for the Host .
    This. Trading a bit of freedom for balancing.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Mr. Tart on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:26 pm

    Like I said, I can understand why they do it. But me, personally, I don't need a time limit to coop. I don't let others do it for me, which is why it bothers ME. I never said it was bad in general. Just that it ruins a lot of the fun I could probably get out of the game myself.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by OGS0ulsFAN on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:36 pm

    Sneezer wrote:Here's the breakdown: White summon sign phantoms have a time limit on them for how long they can stay in the level, the remaining time is also ticked down every time a phantom gets the killing blow on an enemy, making their time in the host's world even less.
    There is also the so called covenant of "blue" on top of that. The covenant of blue are paired with another "guardians of blue" covenant. The prior have phantoms from their guardian covenant, and these phantoms DO NOT have a timer in the current build of the game. 
    Now some of you are uneasy with this or are asking "why?" This is to do a number of things, but first and foremost, this implementation is to make Dark Souls a more difficult and rewarding game, and to adhere to its hardcore PvE nature. It is also to put more emphasis on the co-op covenants, as you actually have a reason to be in them now, unlike in Dark Souls.
    If you watched the new video about the beta build details, you hear it explained that the covenants are a much bigger part of the new game, unlike how they are now.

    My opinion? I love this. I love this a lot. Dark Souls is not meant to be easy, I don't want it to be easy. This will add a much more satisfying feel to the game, much like the new human/hollow mechanics, it makes Dark Souls 2 like how Dark Souls was meant to be. If this interrupts "how you want to play the game" either adapt to it, or play another game.
    great point, it truly will bring more emphasis on coop covenants/ covenant besides a golden summon sign, some items and a quest line and arguably the best character in the game x). plus like i said YOU DONT DISSAPEAR AFTER A BOSS BATTLE. so i think coupled with that it will be a fantastic change
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by OGS0ulsFAN on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:Well, i'm sorry if someone else has already posted this, since I don't have time to read the other 5 pages, but here's my opinion. On the whole, the summoning changes are a good thing, especially the auto-summon if you're invaded while being in the covenant of blue. It gives players pvp skills that they wouldn't have picked up otherwise, without making things impossible for the invader, and makes the host less reliant on the summons to do their dirty work.

    However, I can think of two problems. The first problem is; whats to stop an invader from hiding/turtling until the summon is gone? This could leave a less-experienced host potentially defenceless (unless invaders are also on a timer). The second, bigger problem is: what reward is the summon getting? In DkS1, you get a bunch of souls from killing the boss at the end of an area, but if the phantom's timer runs out before then (as I imagine it probably would), they get nothing except the scant few souls from killing the regular enemies. This could lead to a massive drop in potential summons.

    Despite these problems, I think the changes are an overall improvement.
    hmm good points, the first one is kind of impossible to solve inless your in the blue covenant, (and i hope that if you are in the blue covenant they have a mechanic where the blue phantom dosnt leave until they defeat/ get killed bye the red, and cant enter the boss area until they defeat/get killed bye the red.but if they defeat the red they get automatically deported). with the latter i hope they have maybe a 1.5x reward for the summoned as far as souls for each kill or maybe you get an automatic soul bonus when you get deported back to your world whether or not you defeated the boss.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 pm

    The way I understand it is, the blue covenant is the helper.

    You don't join the blue covenant to get help, you join it if you want to help others.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Shakie666 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:00 pm

    SlothAlmighty wrote:The way I understand it is, the blue covenant is the helper.

    You don't join the blue covenant to get help, you join it if you want to help others.
    My understanding is there's the 'covenant of blue' and the 'guardians of blue'. The guardians of blue are auto-summoned to help out the covenanters of blue.

    When I made my other post, I didn't realise that the guardians of blue don't have a time limit, meaning the first problem is somewhat moot. There's still the second problem though.

    Another question though: if you're a guardian of blue, and you're summoned to help out, do you disappear once the invader's dead, or do you stick around in the hosts world? I presume its the former, but I haven't seen any confirmation either way.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Ahhotep1 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:33 pm

    Well, I've read through most of this thread and understand the rational(s). And know that much is still speculation and that whatever is "in-state" in the game to start can change with the beta end and future patches.

    I usually use no walkthru, view no videos and go solo my first playthru, anyway.

    But I am one of those people that tends to play thru a whole game with a friend(s) while voice skyping, which is awesome! It's not to make the game easier nor even less "eerie". It's simply fun to play with good friends in that way. That I'll miss, for sure.

    Me sad sad

    But it is what it is and I'll deal 'cause I totally enjoy trying to minimize my deaths in the spirit of Dark Souls! twisted 

    Lets hope there is (ultimately) an option for those of us who like to play through the whole game with one or more friends. big grin

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:31 pm

    Marino. wrote:Today i've been summoning a Phantom in Anor Londo .

    Not because i needed help -i was quite OP actually, i was using Vamos' Hammer+3- but because i wanted to Co-op .

    I summoned someone, he was Ninja Flipping with a Lightning Katana, killing everything on sight so i could barely keep up .
    That's not helping someone out, that's playing the Game for me !
    It was no fun for me .

    This made me realise that there is actually no downside to having Phantoms on a timer and having them take a penalty for killing Enemies .

    I really look forward to this mechanic !
    It also raises the issue of the game being too easy as you progress.  This is why so many people do challenge runs.  Maybe From recognizes this fact and plans to up the ante even more, making even base enemies on a challenge level with sub-bosses like the Tower Knights and Channelers.  This way coop will be a necessity rather than a luxury.

    I remember playing my SL1 toon on NG+, grinding through the Parish, losing phantom after phantom, and taking 10 tries to beat the Gargoyles.  I thought to myself, THIS is what coop should be like.  We all know bosses get a boost when you summon, but do mobs?  Maybe that's the solution.  The moment you summon, they get bumped up to NG+ level health and damage.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:35 pm

    SlothAlmighty wrote:I'm sure they will figure out a way to improve the arena.  it was a great idea, just not well implemented.  It would also be nice if they improved 'friend' co op.  for instance have a greater chance of having PSN friends on the same server or an option to make your sign only appear to friends.
    Arena rings.  That's all they need.  They could even make pendants, so you don't waste a ring slot.  If they had them in DkS, you could equip a 2 v 2 Dias ring or pendant, go about your business, and as soon as there were 4 in the queue, you get warped into the arena.  That game Defiance used a similar mechanic for both Shadow Wars and coop.  You select the option, and then once it has people to match up, you warp there.  Simple
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:53 pm

    Back Lot Basher wrote:
    Marino. wrote:Today i've been summoning a Phantom in Anor Londo .

    Not because i needed help -i was quite OP actually, i was using Vamos' Hammer+3- but because i wanted to Co-op .

    I summoned someone, he was Ninja Flipping with a Lightning Katana, killing everything on sight so i could barely keep up .
    That's not helping someone out, that's playing the Game for me !
    It was no fun for me .

    This made me realise that there is actually no downside to having Phantoms on a timer and having them take a penalty for killing Enemies .

    I really look forward to this mechanic !
    It also raises the issue of the game being too easy as you progress.  This is why so many people do challenge runs.  Maybe From recognizes this fact and plans to up the ante even more, making even base enemies on a challenge level with sub-bosses like the Tower Knights and Channelers.  This way coop will be a necessity rather than a luxury.

    I remember playing my SL1 toon on NG+, grinding through the Parish, losing phantom after phantom, and taking 10 tries to beat the Gargoyles.  I thought to myself, THIS is what coop should be like.  We all know bosses get a boost when you summon, but do mobs?  Maybe that's the solution.  The moment you summon, they get bumped up to NG+ level health and damage.
    Geezus, some of you guys must be over the top good.  I gave up on NG+ when I got to the gaping dragon and he one shotted me every time even though I had high vitality SL100+ and some pretty decent armor.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:54 pm

    Back Lot Basher wrote:
    SlothAlmighty wrote:I'm sure they will figure out a way to improve the arena.  it was a great idea, just not well implemented.  It would also be nice if they improved 'friend' co op.  for instance have a greater chance of having PSN friends on the same server or an option to make your sign only appear to friends.
    Arena rings.  That's all they need.  They could even make pendants, so you don't waste a ring slot.  If they had them in DkS, you could equip a 2 v 2 Dias ring or pendant, go about your business, and as soon as there were 4 in the queue, you get warped into the arena.  That game Defiance used a similar mechanic for both Shadow Wars and coop.  You select the option, and then once it has people to match up, you warp there.  Simple
    sounds like it would work.  they seem to be putting a lot of attention into optimizing multiplayer, so hopefully they will come up with a similar mechanic.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:29 pm

    One thing they could do in summoning would be similar to borderlands, where when someone joins your game, the enemies get harder (more hit points/damage etc)

    however after watching some beta footage, the many enemies look plenty hard.  soloing is going to take some serious skill or OPing your character.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:40 pm

    SlothAlmighty wrote:One thing they could do in summoning would be similar to borderlands, where when someone joins your game, the enemies get harder (more hit points/damage etc)

    however after watching some beta footage, the many enemies look plenty hard.  soloing is going to take some serious skill or OPing your character.
    They already do this, but only with bosses. Bosses currently get more HP the more phantoms you bring into the fight.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:51 pm

    Lots of discussion here, but the first thing that came to mind when I heard about summon time limits is "run by everything". I as a host do this already sometimes, for example taking shortcut on 1st pass through AL using the stairs jump. If phantoms would ignore the giants I'd run straight to O&S haha.

    Time limits add incentive to that practice.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:08 pm

    To me I thought time limits would provide incentive to either a) just sign down for the boss or b) sign down for the more difficult areas to genuinely help people. I wouldn't really agree that it's asking you to learn how to speed run a level


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:10 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:To me I thought time limits would provide incentive to either a) just sign down for the boss or b) sign down for the more difficult areas to genuinely help people. I wouldn't really agree that it's asking you to learn how to speed run a level
    It's not asking you to do it, however it's providing incentive.

    Not only that, phantoms will start showing any existing shortcuts like crazy.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:19 pm

    Yeah that's very true, to be honest though I wouldn't wanna ruin people's games by showing them shortcuts on their first playthrough..

    To be honest I'm leaning more for boss door sign camping. It's already common practice with bosses like Iron golem and artorias. Not a stretch to think people will do it as the bosses are the most fun bit and yield the most souls


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:35 pm

    Yeah boss door signs will be the #1 most common place when not ganking I'd bet, unless the game limits that somehow.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Marino. on Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:19 pm

    Guys, first of all we don't know exactly how long the Timer even lasts .
    I saw a Video of seemingly new players getting summoned and going through the level at a rather slow pace, they also made it to the Boss but were killed .

    I think that the Timer is designed in such a way that you can finish a level casually no problem, the Phantom takes a penalty in time for every Enemy they've killed, so it prevents fully decked out White Phantoms to kill the whole level for the noob .
    Yes it's possible that it can be abused by just resummoning the Phantom, but if you can just work around it there is no real loss, right ?

    And it also makes ganking more difficult, it won't prevent it but it is a step in the right direction .
    (Yes, i know about the Blue Covenant, but not much)

    So if anything the Timer will enhance the co-op experience .
    From Software knows what they're doing ^^
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:25 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:They don't want people leaning on summons to clear areas and they want to break up ganks from teaming up together for extended periods of time in PvP.
    This is a terrible reason. All it will do is make the gankers need to find the summon sign again; and that just means it inconveniences them.
    It inconveniences me, it inconveniences you, and it inconveniences the gankers: all to the exact same degree.

    I don't like time limits.

    However how do we know the lengths of these timers? Bear in mind we're not leaving when a mission ends; namely we stay when the boss dies. What if the timer is 1-2 hours long, just to ensure we don't play the entire game together?

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Marino. on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:38 pm

    I don't see how it would be an inconvenience for anyone besides Gankers .

    Hosts can still summon Phantoms, Invaders have a good chance to not get ganked and Whites have to actually co-op with the Host and not clear the whole level for them .

    But yes, it all depends on how long the timer lasts and how the Covenant of Blue works, i have a feeling that Blue will be abused by Gankers .

    For those of you that don't know members of Blue are summond to another Blues world only when they're invaded .
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:49 pm

    I always feel pressured with time limits imposed on games.. maybe that's why i never really wanted to do Majora's mask.. but one day i worked up the courage and.. well, i loved it.

    Maybe time limits won't be so bad. I'm content to just sit and wait.
    if it's a real problem maybe we can just get em to patch her up ;D


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:13 pm

    Marino. wrote:I don't see how it would be an inconvenience for anyone besides Gankers .

    Hosts can still summon Phantoms, Invaders have a good chance to not get ganked and Whites have to actually co-op with the Host and not clear the whole level for them .

    But yes, it all depends on how long the timer lasts and how the Covenant of Blue works, i have a feeling that Blue will be abused by Gankers .

    For those of you that don't know members of Blue are summond to another Blues world only when they're invaded .
    Initially, we can see area's like Anor Londo take many people 2 hours to get fully through their first time. I doubt the phantoms will last for one hour.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Marino. on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:17 pm

    To be fair many many Hosts banish their Phantoms when they reach the Solaire bonfire, that's one of the reasons i don't really do the co-op in the first half of Anor Londo .

    Also, it seems that now you're able to interact with Bonfires even with Phantoms present in the game .
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Odinbear on Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:28 pm

    bosslugger wrote:That's not my point, just an example I used. 
    I want a tangible, valid reason for why there are time limits. 
    Where is the benefit in this?
    Couple posts up from this post are 2 valid reasons.


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