Time limits on summons concern me

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    Juutas
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Juutas on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:33 am

    Tanimura said when asked about this mechanic that nothing is yet etched to stone, so hold your horses.
    Beta will be there exactly for figuring this kind of stuff out and for seeking the perfect balance.

    I have hope that the end results will be satisfying for both co-op PvE players and for the...ummm...co-op PvP players big grin

    Just make your voice heard when/if you get to play the beta.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Seignar on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:34 am

    The system seems nice, but it all comes down to balancing it. If the timer is too short, it ruins Co-op, granted there are apparently varying degrees of timers (depending on certain statistics such as sessions, Covenant, etc.). Since the beta is mostly testing online, they might get feedback as to how long the timer actually is.

    The thing I do hope they include (which I don't really doubt they won't) is indication of the timer's length. A phantom becoming transparent works well, but since now the host has bar of the phantom on their HUD, it couldn't hurt to have a timer there too...

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by passivefamiliar on Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:51 am

    so does anyone have a link to this info? where/who said there is a time limit? has someone played a beta already with this timer?

    i hate the idea...in general. but anything if done RIGHT can be fine. i like the idea of the phantom fading out of our world and the idea of killing enemies (host or phantom kills) keeps the phantom around longer. that would slow gankers down, but they could just as easily respawn everything and resummon. so to me this idea is just another example of a few bad apples ruining it for the rest of us.

    im about to preorder the collectors edition now (praying there isnt a chess set option showing up soon or that the take out what they said like last time) but this timer or not im still getting this game. as with anything new we wont know for sure till we get to see it in  action.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Onion Knight on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:58 pm

    They're making the series more and more PvP orientated. If you look at this combined with the enabling invasion in hollow form. Following the later patches to Dark Souls it's been pretty obvious where this is going for some time.

    I know some people will love where the series is headed but personally PvP is just dull and uninteresting for me. I long for the DeS design but that's unlikely to happen anytime soon unless Sony get the urge to turn it into a franchise.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Onion Knight on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:00 pm

    passivefamiliar wrote:so does anyone have a link to this info? where/who said there is a time limit? has someone played a beta already with this timer?


    Somebody got into Namco's invite only PR event ... sorry, I mean early beta preview.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:32 pm

    Onion Knight wrote:They're making the series more and more PvP orientated. 
    Good.

    The PvE will still be strong I'm sure, but PvP is what keeps the game alive.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Marino. on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:05 pm

    It depends on how long the timer will last, my usual Co-op Runs for O&S (from the second Bonfire excluding the Boss Fight) usually takes around 8-10 Minutes when i'm not opening the shortcut .
    So if the Timer is set at 10-12 Minutes i'm cool with it .

    And i dissagree with Sentinel who said that the Timer should increase instead of decrease when a Phantom kills something .
    That would counteract the whole mechanic which is about the Host not completely relying on the Phantom since then the Phantom would kill every Enemy to be able to stay .


    One thing i do hope for is that the timer dissapears when fighting a Boss, it would suck to get send home when the Boss is at 1/4th of his health and i don't get any Souls for my work .
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:13 pm

    When I said the time should be expanded upon a mob kill, I assumed the base time is rather short. 5 minutes and 10 seconds added per kill. Just an example, I haven't given it much thought to be honest.
    I would balance it so that killing only prolongs the phantoms stay by a little amount with max of 2 minutes.
    Again, just an example of what I meant when I talked about the time expansion.

    Having the time reduced kinda makes me feel like the phantoms won't do much until you get to the boss. As such, the host will either have to do most of the work himself, return to the place where signs gather to summon another phantom and proceed in this annoying manner, or signs will be placed only near boss fogs and other similar difficult areas.
    I feel that would gimp co-op a lot.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Marino. on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:21 pm

    I know what you mean .
    And even if the mechanic stays as it is it can still be abused .

    For example, the Phantom could just almost kill the Enemy and the Host kills it with a Bow or Magic whatever from save distance .

    Again, it all depends on how long the Timer will last, honestly if it's 15-20 Minutes and the Phantom loses 10 Seconds (or different amounts of time depending on the Enemy) per kill i think it wouldn't cripple it all that much .

    The only bad thing i can think of is as you mentioned the backtracking to the summon sign, which if you think about it would undermine the mechanic Look Skyward 

    We can speculate all day, but i think From knows what they're doing lol
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:26 pm

    These guys created two of the best games of this generation, and you know what...I trust them to get this right.  Take all of the flaws in either game, add them up, and all you get is a few petty annoyances.  They are fantastic games, and we all know it.  They're going to get this right.  There will be some growing pains, and a learning curve, but at the end of the day, we're going to have our minds blown for a third time.

    For the record, here's what I expect:

    - Timers will not expire during boss fights.
    - More signs will be found in mid-points of levels, because there will be incentive to get picked up again after a session expiry

    Honestly, I think the more new mechanics they throw at us the better.  Shake it up.  Push us.  I want it to be Souls' game, but I want it to be a NEW Souls' game as well.  New as in different, not re-skinned.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Seignar on Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:00 pm

    That was actually what I expected. Summon Signs will now be found more across a level rather than at the beginning or at the boss gate (due to the fact people have more incentive to summon mid-level). They'll probably be set-up near some infamous part and could become more common as you approach the boss gate.

    What I find imbalanced, however, is that we have no information whether invaders are bound to timer as well. If we can be invaded anytime, we can't let invaders have the same advantages as host.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by phastings on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:26 pm

    Seignar wrote:That was actually what I expected. Summon Signs will now be found more across a level rather than at the beginning or at the boss gate (due to the fact people have more incentive to summon mid-level). They'll probably be set-up near some infamous part and could become more common as you approach the boss gate.

    What I find imbalanced, however, is that we have no information whether invaders are bound to timer as well. If we can be invaded anytime, we can't let invaders have the same advantages as host.
    yep, i mentioned something similar somewhere about invaders.. I don't want gankers waiting for me when I invade, but on the same token I do NOT want reds invading then immediately run to whatever baiting position is in that level and hanging there til I have to disconnect.. Im sure From will follow suit w invasions, it only makes sense.

    haha, if this is the case tho, what will happen from time to time is you invade and someone is waiting to duel you, you are close to finishing them off and then they book it so they can run out your timer

    Another good question to ponder is why there are two different types of white summons. Id imagine the smaller, lesser-timed summon is default, and perhaps the larger of the two could be another covenant..


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:29 pm

    Sentiel wrote:When I said the time should be expanded upon a mob kill, I assumed the base time is rather short. 5 minutes and 10 seconds added per kill. Just an example, I haven't given it much thought to be honest.
    I would balance it so that killing only prolongs the phantoms stay by a little amount with max of 2 minutes.
    Again, just an example of what I meant when I talked about the time expansion.

    Having the time reduced kinda makes me feel like the phantoms won't do much until you get to the boss. As such, the host will either have to do most of the work himself, return to the place where signs gather to summon another phantom and proceed in this annoying manner, or signs will be placed only near boss fogs and other similar difficult areas.
    I feel that would gimp co-op a lot.
    or you summon someone to help you through part of the level and summon again near the boss.
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    time limit

    Post by OGS0ulsFAN on Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:24 am

    i heard there will be different sized soap stains which would help upgrade your coop time to a longer limit. plus when you defeat a main boss your coop buddys dont automatically leave! so i think its a pretty cool trade off.(im getting this info from a gameranx article.)
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by TheWanderer101 on Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:25 am

    Im thinkig several factors will play into a phantoms time limit. First is the size of an area, for example 10-15 minutes is suitable for an area the size of say Anor Londo or Darkroot Forest, but the same time limit for an area similar in size to Undead Burg is just overkill. Second factor could be enemy density in a level, an area packed with enemies like Blight Town would probably give you more time then an area like Darkroot Basin. Just my thoughts I could be completely wrong and i suppose comparing DkS2 to DkS1 is being unfair to DkS2, after all there's still so much we don't know. Until then ill continue to get hyped for the day DkS2 releases, that collectors edition is gonna look sexy as hell on my self!
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Myztyrio on Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:57 am

    My feeling is that people will be spacing their signs out throughout the level to accommodate the time limits, and it will make it so there isn't always just 1 or 2 central summon zones in each area. I personally think it will make things much more interesting and add lots of variety, spotting a summon sign will take more thought rather than pure knowledge and feel more rewarding when finding it and actually achieving the summon.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by dumbcommentbro on Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:59 am

    This isnt primarily a co-op game, its a lone wolf game. your supposed to learn and complete a level on your own... not just summon a phantom to crush everything for you. So many Boases in DaS1 were a joke because u could summon phantoms to help you, This is why the devs are limiting summons.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by twigsterxd on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:37 am

    To me it's a stupid idea. What happens when your summons go away as an invader is just running around waiting for them to go so he can beat you senseless. Having a time-limit is gonna kill the game IMO.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:03 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:To me it's a stupid idea. What happens when your summons go away as an invader is just running around waiting for them to go so he can beat you senseless. Having a time-limit is gonna kill the game IMO.
    Who's to say invaders won't have a limit too? Or as ENB said, that you won't have a fresh summon specifically for when they invade?


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Seignar on Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:41 pm

    There is much controversy with regards to the online change. I for one, welcome them. However, I am concerned how this will affect duels, unless they plan on giving the Red Sign Soapstone unlimited time or create an easily accessible arena.

    With these changes, however, they have to be really watchful of broken stuff. TWoP will probably be removed or mega-nerfed. Dark Magic has been moved to FAI, so that in itself is a nerf. In fact, with the way rolling is now, a lot of things will need a nerf.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:45 pm

    Seignar wrote:Dark Magic has been moved to FAI, so that in itself is a nerf.
    Nerf to INT maybe, and probably justified with INT gaining Pyromancy, but a buff for FAI since before this they had all of 2 directly offensive miracles (counting all variations of Lightning Spear as 1 since they function the same).

    EDIT: I forgot about the Gravelord Sword Dances. So 3, not 2.


    Last edited by Reaperfan on Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Seignar on Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:56 pm

    FAI has naturally slow cast times (WoG/Force DOES NOT COUNT), that was what I meant by a nerf. Being miracles, they should no longer have insane cast times (at least not Dark Bead).

    Also, I hope Dark Bead turns into an 360 degree attack and not a full head-on shotgun.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by twigsterxd on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:00 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    twigsterxd wrote:To me it's a stupid idea. What happens when your summons go away as an invader is just running around waiting for them to go so he can beat you senseless. Having a time-limit is gonna kill the game IMO.
    Who's to say invaders won't have a limit too?  Or as ENB said, that you won't have a fresh summon specifically for when they invade?
    Even so reap, if you have a phantom who just gets clocked off and maybe the time limit thing doesn't allow you to summon again in that level, OR, you are running back to re-summon them and get invaded. The host, (if he has a crappy build at the time), has to run around and try to stay away from the invader until his/her time runs out.

    Also, like Seignar said. What's gonna happen for duels? Or even tourneys. Reds you summon may not have a time limit but the blues with have to beat the clock AND the other guy before losing the match due to time-out.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sneezer on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:21 pm

    Regarding to times: Hosts have to accustom to it, if they can't handle invaders on their own, then they have to get better. Simple as that. It's how they get through PvE, it's how they'll need to learn PvP. I highly doubt invaders or the red summon sign equivalent will have a time limit.

    Regarding stuff "needing nerfs": The entire engine is new, and everything is being worked up from the bottom, this isn't Dark Souls with a different roll mechanic, this is Dark Souls 2, a new ball game altogether. There won't be the same things, there may not even be equivalents to a few things, and I'm sure it will work out well enough.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by phastings on Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:57 am

    unless there is an invader cov that allows another to enter the world of the host you invaded, Blue cov is going to be exploited by gankers. Also, the former would only be fair if it was limited to duel invasions of blue cov hosts for balance-purposes


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