Time limits on summons concern me

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    Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:25 pm

    Here's why:

    The Souls franchise is built on the concept of its unique co-op gameplay. NOTHING else on the market compares to it. 

    There's a fantastic element that you can co-op your way through a level, or get invaded at any moment. I think it's interesting that you can be invaded anytime now, though (a) I worry about network performance - the beta will tell about this, and (b) I don't love the idea of being invaded ruthlessly before I've had much time to figure out the new game. 
    However, I don't love the idea that I have a time limit with blue phantoms. It's MY gameplay experience, why am I being limited? If I want the phantom to carry me, so be it (I don't play that way, but I support others who do).

    What if I want help figuring out how to traverse a level? Nope. What if there's some secrets or hidden treasure I didn't find? Too bad. What if I just want to hang out with friends and party through a level together? Gone.

    I appreciate that maybe it's too much of a network strain to keep a connection open that long, but From doesn't have a spectacular record with network connectivity anyway. 
    What is the advantage here?
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:33 pm

    They don't want people leaning on summons to clear areas and they want to break up ganks from teaming up together for extended periods of time in PvP.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:43 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:They don't want people leaning on summons to clear areas and they want to break up ganks from teaming up together for extended periods of time in PvP.
    Who cares if I want summons to help me clear an area? It's my choice how to play the game. If I want to ruin my experience by letting others do the work for me, so be it. 

    And why no ganks teaming up for extended periods of PvP? If that's because it creates connectivity problems, then get better network architects.

    Still haven't heard a compelling reason for time-limited co op.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:45 pm

    Because if you just want someone else to beat the game for you then why bother playing it? Just watch a walkthrough.

    And gankers are disgusting. Maybe it'll force them to actually learn how to PvP.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:49 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Because if you just want someone else to beat the game for you then why bother playing it? Just watch a walkthrough.

    And gankers are disgusting. Maybe it'll force them to actually learn how to PvP.
    Like I said in my post, what if I need help getting through a level (ie Tomb of Giants, if I don't have a light spell)? What if there's a section of the game I just can't conquer? A time limit makes that impossible. 
    Yes, I can go watch a video, but again, what about co-op? I don't want to play with a buddy for 5 minutes, only to have to summon someone else. Seems dumb. 
    What I loved about Demon's Souls was the "scratch my back" philosophy - you help me with this level, and I'll help you. That seems to be gone forever now.

    And yes, gankers are jerks who ruin the game, but you can't have good without the bad. Personally, I'd like to see them eliminate PvP backstabs rather than set time limits.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:54 pm

    There is nothing you can't conquer. The Tomb of the Giants is highly manageable even without a light source.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:56 pm

    That's not my point, just an example I used. 
    I want a tangible, valid reason for why there are time limits. 
    Where is the benefit in this?
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:07 pm

    Where is the benefit to permanent summons? The only thing really cool thing you take away is people wanting to play through the game together, going from area to area.

    But those sorts of playthroughs are exceedingly rare.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:32 pm

    This all largely depends on how this mechanic will be implemented.

    For example, the time limit can be fifteen minutes. That's more than enough to clear a whole location and kill a boss, with only exception of large locations like Blighttown, Anor Londo and such. But even in those, lot of hosts summon new phantoms on the second bonfire, instead of going through the whole area in one go. Such a time limit would hardly affect players actually doing PvE, but it would affect gankers a lot.

    Or, the time limit can be prolonged by killing enemies, enabling you and the phantom to play together for much longer than you could in DkS and DeS, where the phantom is send home after killing a boss automatically.

    It also removes the "cheap" ways to approach PvE, such as waiting out for regen effects instead of using curative items/spells, abusing AI flaws to slowly kill enemies with ranged attacks and Aux effects, like Poison.

    With the information we have so far, it's impossible to say what this new system will be like. We will surely know more when the beta is out. With so many changes to the online, it's a good idea to do a beta test open to players. At least FROM can see how their ideas will work out and change/balance them as needed.

    One thing that concerns me is that for most of these to work well, it would require extremely fast connecting between players. Much, MUCH more faster than both current Souls games have. Imagine waiting for Mirror Knight to summon a player, or waiting for blue phantom to help you with an invader with current connecting speed. The boss would stand idle for a good minute and before the blue phantom could get to you, the invader would probably slaughter you several times over.

    However, there is one thing to think about. If summoned player can stay in the hosts world even after killing the boss, will the same apply for the invader? If the answer is yes, this could change a lot of stuff about invasions

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by phastings on Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:45 pm

    bosslugger wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:They don't want people leaning on summons to clear areas and they want to break up ganks from teaming up together for extended periods of time in PvP.
    Who cares if I want summons to help me clear an area? It's my choice how to play the game. If I want to ruin my experience by letting others do the work for me, so be it. 

    And why no ganks teaming up for extended periods of PvP? If that's because it creates connectivity problems, then get better network architects.

    Still haven't heard a compelling reason for time-limited co op.
    Although it is your choice on how to play the game (ex; choose any class progression, and now even the ability to clear stages out of order) they have to hammer down on player concessions, such as the infamous outcry for an easymode(i know, totally unrelated), otherwise they will slowly chip away at the unforgiving nature of the series.
     - its a good thing; the devs will not compromise on their integrity and will release a game the way THEY want it.

    it does kinda suck they are making it harder than it was in DkS to find a friends soul sign and further adding a time limit to a white. But if this is the case, clear what you can with that white, and when he gets kicked, go back to where everyone lays a sign and bring in another. best workaround i can think of.

    plus think about WHY they are adding in all this extra hurt to make the game more unforgiving.. If they are allowing quick-travel from the get go and the ability to challenge a boss half way thru a stage, perhaps it is effecting the estimated game completion time and they need to throw in more obstacles to balance and provide something that will challenge us for good 60hrs till we beat first playthru.

    I for one will feel like i got short-changed if i am able to reasonably get thru the game in less than 40 hrs.

    whatdoespendantdo? gave as good and compelling a reason as anyone could: to eliminate rampant gankers. There is not much along the lines of "benefit" for the player, its always (hopefully) gonna be about making us suffer lol. Its what forces you to get skilled at the game, which adds value to it.

    But we know very little, and its in beta phase. if it doesnt work right im sure they will change it. there is always post release patches too

    -also.. if there is a time limit on whites, perhaps there will be a time limit on invaders. I can see this being a good balance bc the first thing that comes to mind is pvp in dark londo: invader enters, then runs to the bridge and activates the lever, or goes to hang out with the silver knight archers, or behind the giant blacksmith lol. wouldnt be anymore of that BS


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Reaperfan on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:15 pm

    Having a time limit on the summons doesn't mean summons will stop existing. 10 or even 5 minutes is more than enough for a competent phantom to help you through the bulk of any particular area. Whether you like it or not, FROM doesn't like the idea that people are using summons to coast through the game, and this is their attempt to mold their product to their vision. Let the game devs do what they do.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:14 pm

    I think it's a nice idea. But as a personal note as an addicted Sunbro, it's gonna be annoying that I can't maximise helping or maximise soul gathering by copping whole levels.

    I predict signs being mainly at boss fog because of this, though when I'm helping ill likely lay down my sign at the most difficult areas


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:27 pm

    And I guess that's my concern...there's something about helping others that's really satisfying, making it through the whole level together. Also, the soul reward is quite nice. 
    I guess I should reserve judgement until the beta, I just don't really understand the mechanics behind time limits on summons (other than network performance).
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by phastings on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:29 pm

    shoot.. i forgot about the "you defeated" soul award, and that satisfying fade-away when that message pops..


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:09 pm

    Well, maybe you don't disappear during boss battles, that would be crap. I would think they would implement to happen after either a very long amount of time, or after a couple invader kills.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by carlucio on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:37 pm

    I think that change was very good.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by phastings on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:03 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:Well, maybe you don't disappear during boss battles, that would be crap. I would think they would implement to happen after either a very long amount of time, or after a couple invader kills.
     this would be legit. as long as you dont disappear before traversing the fog gate your golden. Lets hope this is the case


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:05 am

    I suppose the time limit will freeze, or outright disappear when fighting a boss.
    Having your phantom dissapear on you a few seconds after entering the boss area would be bad. Especially if you would have to deal with the extra HP version of the boss alone.

    I hope there will be some sort of timer, or meter available for us to see how long the summon will stay in our world. I'd make the phantom more and more transparent until he disappears completely. It would super suck if it was hidden, so we couldn't see how much time is left.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Myztyrio on Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:12 am

    I do agree with the OP though, that it limits freedom. I'm completely choice-oriented, and while I agree that things like 1v1 are preferable to ganking, people should be free to do as they please in this game. It makes things interesting, anyway.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sneezer on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:04 am

    Here's the breakdown: White summon sign phantoms have a time limit on them for how long they can stay in the level, the remaining time is also ticked down every time a phantom gets the killing blow on an enemy, making their time in the host's world even less.
    There is also the so called covenant of "blue" on top of that. The covenant of blue are paired with another "guardians of blue" covenant. The prior have phantoms from their guardian covenant, and these phantoms DO NOT have a timer in the current build of the game. 
    Now some of you are uneasy with this or are asking "why?" This is to do a number of things, but first and foremost, this implementation is to make Dark Souls a more difficult and rewarding game, and to adhere to its hardcore PvE nature. It is also to put more emphasis on the co-op covenants, as you actually have a reason to be in them now, unlike in Dark Souls.
    If you watched the new video about the beta build details, you hear it explained that the covenants are a much bigger part of the new game, unlike how they are now.

    My opinion? I love this. I love this a lot. Dark Souls is not meant to be easy, I don't want it to be easy. This will add a much more satisfying feel to the game, much like the new human/hollow mechanics, it makes Dark Souls 2 like how Dark Souls was meant to be. If this interrupts "how you want to play the game" either adapt to it, or play another game.


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by lonewolf on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:10 am

    it will be interesting but be prepared for the numbers of ganks to skyrocket


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:31 am

    I understood it that the blue phantoms are there to help the host fight an invader that is already present in the host's world. Given the fact that regular white phantoms have the time limit on them, if the devs want to make the game harder, they should disallow the blue phantom to aggro and damage mobs.
    If not, then the blue phantom can be used to help the host with PvE, more than the white phantom, even if the blue gets send home after the invaders death. Not every invader will go and fight the host and blue head on after all.
    What I don't get is why is the timer reduced for killing enemies. It would make more sense to me to prolong the time by killing enemies instead. This way, the white can't help the host very much and unless the time limit is very generous, I see no point in using the summon at all, as it is now.

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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:49 am

    I don't want to speculate too much since we don't know how long the summon timers will be but I'm glad they're trying to make co-op a bit more varied. The only time I used to co-op was when I was playing as a Sun Bro or wanted to clear an area extremely quickly. I remember trying to make a Princess Covenant character and whenever I went to heal my allies they'd run out of range because they had no idea what I was doing -_-

    Blue covenant combined with red covenant sounds really awesome if you want a quick 2v2 or are into co-op pvp in any way and I'm sure white phantoms will be given enough time to have a decent impact on a level. I'm just excited to see what other covenants they have in store for us ^^


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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Werdax on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:25 am

    I have mixed feelings about the whole "timed phantom" subject. I care little about summoning people to my world, but I do enjoy getting summoned. Meaning, when I get summoned, I will now be under time pressure, trying to help the host through. According to ENB, the more enemies the phantom slay, the faster the timer decrease, further increasing the pressure.

    On the other hand, I like the thought of the phantom being more of a guide, rather then a taxicab carrying the host all the way through the location. In order to let the phantom stay as long as possible, the host and the phantom will have to work together and share the kills, instead of letting the phantom do all the heavy lifting. In other words: Forcing the host and the phantom to take "jolly cooperation" seriously.

    Also, who knows how long the timer last. There is a small summon stone and a big summon stone. I imagine the small stone last for five minutes, whereas the big stone last for ten minutes, but there is no way to tell just yet. Point is, if the host and the phantom works together, they can easily reach to the far end of the location without the phantom disappearing.
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    Re: Time limits on summons concern me

    Post by Sneezer on Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:58 am

    Sentiel wrote:Snip
    Because having a phantom who knows the area steamroll all the mobs in the level is stupid. It's cooperation, not "summon a phantom when I'm stuck and have them do everything for me" like it tends to be in Dark Souls. Making the host ACTUALLY pitch in and not just take the backseat is a much better design gameplay wise.


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