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    That's No Moon (Star Wars Thread)

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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:49 am

    Dad, what are you doing on the forums? silly

    Haha, that is my favourite one, I'm not going to say liking any of them is a bad thing but that is my definite favourite one.

    Cheesy? What is cheesy about an anal retentive droid playing chess with a hairy wookie and talking about....Oh...
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:02 am

    I don't agree with either of those statements at all. I'll give you the new trilogy. But give me more of a reason that episodes 5 and 6 are not good movies, aside from that they just aren't. In the scope of sci-fi movies I feel they're a step above most others, absolutely including trek. The humor may be a bit cheesed, but I think the movies themselves are very well written. Just the allegorical parallels with Buddhism are enough to win my respect.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:04 am

    Well see to me everything is cheesy, I'm a writer, and a guy who watches a lot of films. To me, things just get cheesy sometimes. Inception? I thought that movie was entertaining and I enjoyed watching it, but there were moments where I laughed at it because I just thought it was kind of idiotic at times. To me everything is pretty cheesy, but sometimes I enjoy the cheese. I liked Live Free or Die Hard for example, and that movie is 90% Cheese, 10% special effects.

    EDIT: By the way when I look at my own work I think it is cheesy, so I'm not just looking down on everything I didn't make in my "Artistic vision."
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:18 am

    I have no artistic vision. If/when i write i create characters and backstories for the major characters/ world and let the story tell itself. If i did things properly, every character has a long list of personality traits/ life experiences/ thought patterns to support why they make each individual choice they do. And as i created them, i know all these things and can properly "predict" their responses and convey them in writing.

    Yes, this takes forever, and no, i haven't published anything.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:52 am

    Hey, nothing wrong with taking your time. Nothing wrong with never publishing anything either, I like the idea of writing more so as a therapy for the writer and reader than a business...Even though it is definitely one these days.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:54 am

    I could write pages of why I believe Starwars is, aside from being awesome just because, a form high art. It has so so many facets that fit perfectly into what, both classical and widely relied on contemporary, art/literature/film critics consider elements of high art. For example it almost flawlessly follows the Aristotolian elements of the properly structured tragedy. Say you consider Vader the main character, which makes sense being that he's the only character whose, both in, and central to every film. The narrative begins in medias res, Vader most certainly suffers from a classically defined hamartia, even more specifically his over confidence eventually leads to his downfall, making it fit even more perfectly, as for Aristotle hubris was the most correct form of hamartia. This hubris leads to a very clear peripeteia scene, namely when he transforms from Anakin to Vader and is seemingly lost forever to the dark side. Then later, after Luke meets Obi Wan and begins being trained in the Jedi arts, Vader experiences his presence, knowing that he's his son, which eventually brings about the scene at the end of Empire, where he asks Luke to follow in his footsteps and rule with him, arguably the beginning of the Aristotolian anagnorisis. Vader clearly experiences recognition in that scene that what he's doing is clearly wrong, I feel his hesitating actions in Return of the Jedi denote that he's realized he's chosen the wrong path. Finally the catastrophe comes at the end of Jedi when, due to all these factors, he denounces everything in his life that's led up to that point, kills the emperor to save Luke, and indirectly kills himself, and thus the tragic hero's hubris ultimately leads to his demise. I believe that it could also be argued that the Rebel Alliance winning in the end is a illustration of George Lucas's perception of catharsis. If you take the meaning of the narrative to be of a didactic quality, as was classically expected, then the lesson here is that good triumphs. The people who allow altruism to dictate their lives, the Jedi, win, and those who dictate their lives based on selfish desires, the Sith, are ultimately thrown down. In recognizing that theme, which I feel is difficult to ignore, you, as a member of the general audience, have experienced Lucas's desired catharsis. So according to Aristotle Starwars is high art. Counter that argument buddy.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:05 am

    I am very familiar with the Hero's Journey and the reasons as well why I consider Star Wars art. As I said I just consider everything to be a bit lame, cheesy, cliche, or goofy in some manner. I guess I'm just one of those people that always expects there to be something more, in my eyes everything in existence just isn't enough. Maybe that is also why I like to create, and view the creations of others. I'm not saying anything bad or negative, it's more just a world view of mine. Just like I hate society and culture, but I love being social and belonging to a culture. It's funny but Star Wars has probably had more of an impact on who I am as a person than my family, which is kind of sad in a way. And awesome, because I was practically raised by Jedi.

    Again I'm not disagreeing with you, I completely agree. I guess I'm a bit of a cynic is all. Just a different view of the world.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:06 am

    ............................................................i have neither the time nor inclination. I just think its cool and has relatable and engaging characters. *incedenitally, for me relatable refers to most every non skywalker*

    Dont get me wrong, i understand everything you said, but i don't understand the concept of art. Things really only have the meaning each individual assigns them and i don't see the purpose in assigning meaning to thing that don't need it. I enjoy it, simple as that.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:08 am

    That wasn't meant as a response to what you said Tolvo. I was responding to:

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:I haven't read a single post on this thread, but I'm going to come out and say that the first Star Wars (Episode IV) is the only good one.

    I'm not saying that that's the only one that I like or enjoy...but really, like as a film, IV is the only good one.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with having high expectations. In fact I think to a degree it makes the world a better place.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:11 am

    Actually funny thing is looking back on the statement it would make me an optimist really wouldn't it? I expect better, as if I think things are greater than they are. I need to stop trying to talk about Philosophy when I'm so tired I'm as drunk as a person on Saint Patrick's...Oh...
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:13 am

    There are several different schools of thought based on what makes art "good." The perception that meaning or validity is dictated by the response of the audience is not only a valid perception, but is also a very widely accepted one. My argument was meant to illustrate the point that no basis was given in claiming that Starwars is in fact bad art. My response is giving form to why I believe it most certainly is not bad art, according to rules that were dictated by someone whose very commonly accepted as an authority. See if he'd said "I don't like Starwars" that would have been a different matter, but by claiming "Starwars is bad," I feel like a basis for that claim is necessary.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:16 am

    Ah, alright gotcha. I've always viewed art as anything that can convey an idea, emotional state, or inspire another person. Though I guess that's so broad that some things that are terrible are considered art. I guess I never specified what I considered to be GOOD art haha. But yeah, good, bad, ugly, it's all subjective really. Personally I think Jar Jar is one of the worst characters to ever exist in fiction. But some people might actually get something great out of Jar Jar, or just think he is funny. As I always say I can be pretty opinionated about things like Star Wars, but they are just opinions after all.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:20 am

    Either way I got to argue why I think Aristotle would have approved of the wars. That makes this evening well spent in my book.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:26 am

    Well George Lucas did based the story around his ideas, it's not a coincidence that was all planned. In fact even his dreams, everything had deeper meanings. It's actually funny but while I don't like the new films and think a lot of the scenes can be ridiculous, there are still a lot of things hidden in there that you might not even notice. Such as the Crucifixion of Anakin.

    Every evening is well spent when talking about Star Wars haha.

    Haha, ever have those childish moments where you were way too into a character? I remember when I was younger I REFUSED to accept the death of Jango Fett.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:09 am

    See that's part of what I'm saying. There's so much going on beyond face value that to just simply call it bad with a capital B is a little silly IMO.

    I personally was never really into the Fetts. Maybe it's because I never read the books, but in the movies Boba Fett just doesn't do much. I'll admit his armor is cool, but as a character all he really accomplishes is capturing Han, and it wasn't even really him but Vader. Although he does die in the worst possible, fictional or real, way ever. I guess Jango is bad *** because all the clones are technically him, but he gets deathed pretty readily also.
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    Post by JohnnyHarpoon Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:40 am

    Well, at least part of it I'd say is that Lucas himself didn't direct them. I'm not a big fan of any of the 'first three' (episodes 1-3), so don't get me wrong, but I'm definitely not denying the potential coexistence of art and camp...in fact, using American Graffiti or even Francis Ford Coppola's film Tucker (which was highly influenced by Lucas, starring Jeff Bridges, and campy as hell) as examples, I'd say that Lucas just understood how to execute his own campy ideas the best. Coppola, a quite capable director and friend of Lucas, definitely understood them as well and thus produced a solid piece of camp, too (albeit biographical instead of science-fiction). In Empire and Jedi, though, I question the true accuracy of the directors' interpretations of Lucas' ideas...like, whereas I truly believe that Princess Leia programs her last and only hope onto two droids, Luke feels like he spends half of Empire talking to a puppet. There's just something missing in the fundamentals for me, and whether it's the director or whatever, the bottom line is that I find myself getting bored watching Empire and Jedi at times (particularly the middle of both) and I am really never bored during A New Hope.

    Story-wise, I feel things could have been expanded upon. For instance, there was really never a point where I thought Luke would go to the dark side. Now, I'm not saying that the dark side never temps him...but that there's never a moment where he really seems truly tempted by the dark side. From a writing perspective, that is definitely something that could have upped the stakes in my mind. Luke, an orphan, discovers that his father, whom he presumed to be dead his entire life, is actually still alive, and he isn't even ****ing tempted to go to the dark side and toss the pigskin with ol' Dad? It's true, if Palpatine were there telling me to come to the dark side and stuff, regardless of my father being there or not, I probably wouldn't, either...that guy's creepy...but like I can't have one goddamn minute where I'm worried that the protagonist will make a bad decision?

    I'm mostly looking at what I perceive as Luke's goal, to be come a Jedi like his father (I believe that a pretty solid paraphrasing of his exact words). Yes, his goal is to become a Jedi...but in becoming a Jedi, he is really looking for his father...which is why we as humans can relate to the story. Then, there's this whole scene where he finds his own face in Vader's helmet on Dagobah...alright, weird, let's hope that never happens...back to becoming a badass Jedi like my father. Then, boom! He actually finds the guy at the end of Empire. Everything he had believed before is shattered...including his goal. His goal is now split into two - he can't become a Jedi like his father - he can either become a Jedi, or become like his father. Whoa, that cave scene was crazy foreshadowing...I guess. If Luke had actually ever seemed like, for a second, that he was going to turn to the dark side, yeah, definitely. But it went how it went, and to me, there could have been a whole new layer to the story that was just set up and set up but never quite paid off.

    And yeah, there's more to it than that, but that's a pretty solid tasting of the menu for now. And yeah, I'm being a nitpicky prick, but it's important in my book to be able to separate personal affections from critical opinions, at least when it comes to films. Obviously, often they coincide...but sometimes they don't. So don't get me wrong - I love the **** out of Empire and Jedi. If it weren't for Hoth, or Dagobah, or Cloud City, my imagination wouldn't be what it is today. If it weren't for Leia all Jabba-slaved out, who knows when I'd have realized that cooties are actually something I may be into. If it weren't for Ewoks, I'd have never learned that you can coerce tiny forest-folk to aid in your war against The Man. So yeah, I'll go on worshipping my Boba Fett pez dispenser as a false idol just to break real-God's commandment and align myself with Star-Wars-God...but in the end, A New Hope is really the goodest one.
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    Post by JohnnyHarpoon Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:03 am

    And I never said 5 and 6 were bad. I like them, best to worst, in chronological order of release.
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    Post by berkut Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:24 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:See that's part of what I'm saying. There's so much going on beyond face value that to just simply call it bad with a capital B is a little silly IMO.

    I personally was never really into the Fetts. Maybe it's because I never read the books, but in the movies Boba Fett just doesn't do much. I'll admit his armor is cool, but as a character all he really accomplishes is capturing Han, and it wasn't even really him but Vader. Although he does die in the worst possible, fictional or real, way ever. I guess Jango is bad *** because all the clones are technically him, but he gets deathed pretty readily also.

    The Fetts are really fleshed out in the books, to the point where they rival many of the other movie characters for importance. It is quite interesting happy (Brutally hard.....to contain.....spoilers :silent:)
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:35 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:And I never said 5 and 6 were bad. I like them, best to worst, in chronological order of release.

    By saying that 4 was the only "good" movie, you imply that 5 and 6 are not good movies. I still feel like while everything you said, may be valid, I actually agree with you that the point of Luke wavering before becoming a true Jedi would have made them better films, but I think as you said this falls into the category of personal interpretation, as opposed to dictating their validity as art.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:37 pm

    Actually that was always something I thought would have been a pretty cool idea, Luke actually turning to the Darkside as a means of revenge upon Darth Vader, the Ghost of Obi-Wan trying to uncloud his mind as his rage fuels his hatred towards his father. In the final moments when Sidious has thought he has finally broken and turned luke finally he realizes he has become his father. This was somewhat done in Return, but not to the effect it really could have been. I almost feel he maybe should have stuck with Revenge of the Jedi. As if Luke felt he was getting retribution for all of the Jedi that came before him that were slain by Vader and Sidious.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:47 pm

    On a lighter note have you guys seen this:

    https://youtu.be/LmfU_aPSo5k

    There are a few more good ones if you go to his youtube channel. I highly recommend "Quintin Terrintino's Star Wars"
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:56 pm

    That's No Moon  (Star Wars Thread) - Page 9 Anorlando

    Anor Lando shines his incandescence upon that video. I'll say it is a bit weird, but I still found it pretty funny. Good find.

    I swear if this image was already posted in this thread...
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:01 pm

    Hahaha. I've never seen it before. I give it two thumbs up.

    He has another video called "Kung Fu Kanobi's Great Adventure." The scene I wanted you to see I thought was in Terintino's Star Wars but it's not, it's in ^. It's a scene with Mace Windu that's really worth watching.
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:09 pm

    That one was even more confusing haha. It kind of reminds me of Monty Python, I'm not entirely sure how. But it just kind of gives me that vibe.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:16 pm

    Yeah I think Disco Lando is the most cohesive one. I just think the Mace Windu scene is worth seeing

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