No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

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    SlintEastwood
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:38 am

    Serious_Much wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:
    I never implied that toggle bsing or parrying was a good idea (though I have no problem with toggle parrying. If someone doesn't want to get toggle parried then they should try getting good)..
    Really? "Getting good"? I don't think saying that from the perspective of someone abusing a glitch to do it can really say that. toggle parries and BS are both ridiculous because you should be stunned and incapable of offensive action when you do it. That's why it's bad. Saying otherwise is neglecting the nature of the method you used to parry that person. They're both bad to me, as they shouldn't happen, simple as that.

    SlintEastwood wrote:
    As far as exchanging goes I definitely think it's worth it. Being able to tank say, a kat hit in a clay vs kat matchup is extremely helpful. Also, I don't see anything wrong with poise backstabs against certain attacks (those attacks being thrusting sword turtle pokes and every spear attack).
    The key problem with this though is assuming poise builds use weapons that can always out exchange. Essentially then your idea gimps poise users with weaker weapons even more- as the only thing that you leave poise with is rendered irrelevant due to their weapon choice. So essentially your proposal reduces potential for viable build variety as well as spoiling the point of poise
    Well obviously seeing as how I dislike the idea of stunlocking I disagree with the idea that one shouldn't be able to toggle and carry out offensive action. Toggle parries aren't really a problem in any case, because they will almost never be landed against competent players.

    Also, you don't even need to use a weapon that can out exchange your opponent's for poise to be useful without the threat of being stunlocked. In a cb vs cb mirror match a person with 32 poise will have a large advantage over someone with 0, for example. 

    Also, it doesn't spoil the point of poise, though I suppose it nerfs it (and I would prefer to nerf it even more).
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:45 am

    Basically both sides aren't going to agree.

    One side believes stunlocking to be a poor mechanic to put into a game.

    One side disagrees with glitching.

    Essentially the removal of stunlocking while glitches are removed would be the only way to make both sides happy.  If they don't do both then one side will be unhappy.  Simple as that really.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:02 am

    Tolvo wrote:Basically both sides aren't going to agree.

    One side believes stunlocking to be a poor mechanic to put into a game.

    One side disagrees with glitching.

    Essentially the removal of stunlocking while glitches are removed would be the only way to make both sides happy.  If they don't do both then one side will be unhappy.  Simple as that really.
    Never a truer word spoken. On that bombshell I should probably do something more productive and leave silly

    Except removal of toggle and nerfing of stunlock would be fine (sorry i couldn't resist lol!)


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:04 am

    AND REMOVING TOGGLE ESCAPE IS THE DEVIL!

    And now it's time for me to do something more productive as well, like sleep.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:12 am

    Tolvo wrote:AND REMOVING TOGGLE ESCAPE IS THE DEVIL!

    And now it's time for me to do something more productive as well, like sleep.
    lol, +1 for parody


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:59 am

    What is Toggle Escape actually good for?

    1. Escaping infinite stunlocks.
    2. Countering Dead Angles.

    As for the first. I always said and will say that infinite stunlocks should be removed completely. Especially from weapons like Zweihander.

    And the second. Dead Angles are the same thing as Toggle Escape and it's great that they counter each other, but I believe it would be much better if they would get both removed, fixed. Both of these remove depth from PvP.

    Dead Angles are good way to deal with turtles, but that does not justify the exploit, because you have many other, non-glitch options to deal with turtles.
    If all Dead Angles do is make life hard for turtles I would probably grind my teeth, but leave it alone without any comments.

    The real problem with Dead Angles starts when it's used so that someobody can mindlessly mash R1 and don't worry about getting parried and when somebody uses it with an AoE to bypass your shield and possibly pull you in for an inescapable backstab.

    Now for the reason why I mentioned Dead Angles in a Toggle Escape thread. When an AoE is used to bypass your shield, Toggle Escape is the only way you can save yourself from otherwise inescapable backstab. That makes Toggle Escape the only possible counter to such an tactic. Fight an exploit with an exploit. Fire with fire.
    That's fine with me. Even with that said, I think that rather than fighting an exploit with another one, it would be wiser to remove both of them and thus dealing with the entire situation at hand completely.

    It doesn't do anything about Dead Angle enabling a player to ignore parries though and turning away to face them is asking for a bs, so that's not a viable counter. But since you can always just back off, the DA is likely to miss you.

    The same can be said about infinite stunlocks. As far as those go, the only problemtic weapons in this situation are Zweihander and Greatsword. With their range and Poise damage, these two, mainly Zwei are number one issue with stunlocks. If they got their swing speed reduced to the same as of the Demon Great Machette, they could stunlock only for two hits and then you could roll away.
    Problem solved! No need for Toggle Escape.

    There are other weapons capable of infinite stunlocking though, even if they have shorter reach, poor movesets, low damage, or other disadvantages, they all should lose their ability to stunlock to infinity.

    The problem with Toggle Escape is that it makes people play sloppy even more than Poise does. With Poise, you can tank a hit and do a backstab. Everybody knows this and can expect and counter it. But when someone Toggle Escapes from every hit and does a backstab, or a parry, you can't counter it, because you don't expect it. You can get used to it and punish it, but that doesn't remove the problem. On the contrary it creates another problem. PvP fights oriented sorely on backstabbing.

    For example, I like to stunlock people with my Longsword. It's amazing feeling when you pull it off, because it's very difficult. Especially when compared to a mindless R1 spam with a Zwei. You can say something very similar when you manage to land a stunlock with a weapon like Mace, or Pickaxe. Even getting a hit with these is difficult and very risky thanks to whiff. So when you finally stunlock your opponent, it's usually well deserved, because you had to use some tactic to do it, or had to make your opponent do a mistake which you could use to land that deciding hit. None of these have infinite stunlock. At best, they get a three hit stunlock (only exceptions is the Reinforced Club I believe). Even so, people often Toggle Escape from it. That in turn turns the weapon almost completely useless. It's not fast enough to do hit&run tactics of a katana, or a rapier. It relies on stunlocking to deal damage and has some serious disadvantages for it to be able to do so.

    In the end, people use Toggle Escape to avoid paying for their mistakes. You got your Poise chipped and got stunlocked by a Broadsword? You deserve that stunlock and the damage. Don't use an exploit to make up for your own fail to avoid it. That is what makes people play sloppy. Not Poise.
    With Poise tanking, you have to sacrifice something. Ring slot, roll speed, stats.
    With Toggle Escape you don't have to sacrifice anything.
    As such, people can go around with 0 Poise, use DWGR and Hornet and roll bs all day. If they get hit, instead of getting stunlocked, or even staggered, they Toggle Escape and backstab their opponent instead. That makes them play with next to no regard to their HP, or defences. Because they will just Toggle out of everything, so there's no need to worry about doing anything else all day long.

    In short. Just like Dead Angles can make shields, especially Greatshields and parrying useless, Toggle Escape does the same with a lot of weapons and fighting tactics. That in turn limits our available euipment options.
    Both make people lazy to deal with the other player and their own mistakes, because they offer an easy and free alternative to make up for their lack of skill and awareness.

    If someone can call this adding depth to PvP, I call that person a fool.


    I believe that an ideal system to stunlocking would be to allow only two, or three hit stunlocks with the number of hits per stunlock depending on the weapons reach.
    With this, long weapons, like the already mentioned Zweihander, could stunlock you for only two hits and then you could roll away, or block the third hit. While short weapons, like Battle Axe could stunlock you for three hits with you being able to roll away, or block the fourth.
    The reason for this being that the shorter weapons, like Mace are difficult to land a hit with, break less Poise than an UGS, have poor movesets and have a whiff animation when you miss.

    It doesn't adress the stagger backstabs though, which are also an issue, because they are often inescapable. But simply adding few frames of backstab immunity after a stagger would solve that problem and there would be no need to use a glitch instead.

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by FinPeku on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:47 am

    Personally, i don't care whether or not a mechanic is intended or not. If it doesn't give an unfair advantage, like a dragon head glitch and stuff like that, i'm fine with it. Toggle escape, dead angles, spell cancel, chain backstabs are all fine to me.

    The only problem i have with toggle escape is the fact that you can escape the first hit and that it's very easy to do if you mash d-pad. If it required good timing like parrying for example, and you couldn't toggle out of the first swing it would be even better mechanic than it is now. Second swing toggle escape can be punished in different ways and i don't have a problem with that. An intended escape mechanic in dks 2 would be cool.

    The problem with hammers and axes is not toggle escape, it's the bad moveset. Although toggle escape obviously makes it even worse. Weapons like mace and reinforced club don't really have a lot of good tools outside of stunlock and criticals. Same could be said about some other str weapons. From needs to get rid of useless R2s, way too risky running attacks and give all weapons versatile movesets. Weapons like balder side sword, claymore, even katanas are great because they have more than 1-2 useful attacks. 

    Sentiel, you can call me a fool but while dead angles and toggle escape are not perfect mechanics, they add depth to the game. Also, would you be willing to show me 2h zwei dead angle? I can't seem to do it and all those giant dads i've faced have trouble doing it to me too. Also, do you have a build with force or wog? Wog -> backstab is not inescapable and i'm willing to prove it to you. Deciding something is inescapable, or "op" or whatever, is the first step of not finding a counter it.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:22 am

    Fin, I wanted to upvote you for your comment about weapon movesets, but I already gave my two votes for today. sad
    It's true that while all weapons are viable, heck I got owned by a guy with a Dagger once, not all are ideal for PvP thanks to poor movesets. Yes, weapons like Pickaxe should have silly movesets, because they're not meant for fighting and are there mostly for fun, but a Mace, which is perfectly normal weapon, shouldn't have the same moveset as a Pickaxe (or at least largely similar).

    I'd gladly show you a Zwei Dead Angle, but as you can guess a hater doesn't use what he hates, so my DA skills leave a lot to be desired. We can try it anyway if you want. happy
    Most of my DAs come from people that try to strafe bs me while I swing my weapon, so in essence, they DA themselves.

    As for WoG -> bs, I tried rolling away, pivot parry and pivot attacking and only the last option worked, but only with fast weapons. However canceling bs damage isn't a good option either. While you negate the damage, you still are locked in the animation, while your opponent can heal, or buff. Not to mention that this method doesn't allow you to actually escape the backstab, just make it do no damage instead.

    ok. Let's do this. I'll gladly stand corrected if you will show me some way to escape a stagger bs, especially AoE -> bs.

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by FinPeku on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:34 am

    Alright, sounds good happy

    I've been working on a video about avoiding stun bs, but i feel it still needs a little bit more testing so this will be great.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:59 am

    Great! Once again, I will be on YouTube getting my butt handled to me. lol!
    I should crawl under some rock, die and stop respawning. big grin

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:43 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Is that so? You know, many well balanced mmo's/fighters have both stun combo's and escapes built in. Leaving the toggle (or implimenting another method) could well be a part of balancing "properly," especially as it adds a player driven method of escapes and strategy rather than a engine enforced autoescape.
    Leaving toggling in is silly, why would changing weapons unstun you? They could well implement something similar where a well timed button press will get you out of it, that's up to them.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:28 pm

    To make our findings public. Me and Fin found out that to avoid stagger bs, one has to do the same as when to avoid a chain bs. Do nothing.
    If you stay still, the bs will turn into a regular R1 instead. This is usefull for weapons that do little R1 damage, like daggers and piercing swords, but against UGS and other large weapons, this won't do much good.

    We also found that Drake Sword 2H R2 can Dead Angle. That thing is getting more OP by the hour!

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:41 pm

    We should probably add this discussion to the list of things people shouldn't talk about, like spears balance.  This discussion is bringing nothing but annoyance and people getting really vile and insulting, frankly I'm considering leaving the forum now.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:48 pm

    I think that poise is a terrible system tbh, My armour is heavier so I won't be staggered if a a hammer used by a giant smacks me in the face.

    HOWEVER

    It's a game mechanic that can 100% get rid of stunlocks if you choose to sacrifice mobility.

    It's not fair to people who want to use strength weapons, which are slow and easy to dodge.

    If someone cheats you out of your successful hits then how does it balance out the game?

    If I were FromSoft, I would just dump the poise thing and start from scratch, maybe just have a stunlock be 2 - 3 hits like it was said earlier.

    - Get rid of Poise

    - Make stunlocks reasonably punishing, but not fatal.

    - get rid of toggles and dead angles.



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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:50 pm

    SPEARS ARE OP. SHUT UP NO THEY AREN'T. 



    Sad how we can't talk about this without it turning bad.

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:54 pm

    Because try as we might people can't be trusted to open their god dammed mouths without spouting ******** or vile things about the opinions of other people.  It's just the way it is, it wasn't always like this and it was rare but these days it is the standard.  I give up, everyone wins they get to be jerks.  I'm done trying to be friendly I'm done trying to help people, I'll just be a complete jackass like so many others.  Happy?  You've won people.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:57 pm

    C'mon Tolvo, this discussion isn't that bad. You're overreacting.
    btw
    What's the problem with spears now?

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:00 pm

    No, it wasn't bad in here until someone brought it into chat when I said it wouldn't be a good idea, then started the discussion with an insult to me.  That's when it got bad ,that's when the straw came that broke my back.

    Funny right guys?  I had back surgery, let's joke about that too!

    Hey I dislike the Covenant section, let's jump on that too and call me an idiot and act condescending and call my opinion horse ****, what do I know?  I'm useless, I never have done anything for anyone and all of my work amounts to nothing!

    Yeah let's join in, who else wants to act like a prick to each other?

    *** you Sentiel.  I'm doing it right I think, I think I'm just supposed to insult you based off of nothing but I might be doing it wrong.

    EDIT:  By the way for once this is actually something worth downvoting!  Come on bring it on, let's see if I can reach a negative score!  It's the cool thing to do I hear.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:24 pm

    Toggle escape?

    Makes me want to get into a Boggle tournament. Anyone interested?

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by FinPeku on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:29 pm

    Woah, what happened here? I thought the discussion had pretty much ended. Someone brought in the chat? Starting anything with an insult is a bad idea. However, people are free to talk about these things in the chat. If they can't talk about it without getting personal or rude they should be removed from the chat or simply not take part in the discussion. 

    Tolvo, if you truly feel like being a prick and letting off some steam, you can insult me in every way you want. Just do it via p.m. I promise you I have thicker skin than an elephant. Not sure if someone actually is stupid enough to think you're useless or are you just angry but you are not and have not been useless. Everyone who has been here for some time knows it. Fun fact, i was just editing a remake of the forest tips and tricks video that you helped me with some time ago, remember?


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Leet on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:22 pm






    For you Queen fans!

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:19 pm

    I'll keep this simple. As long as there are stunlocks, there should be a way to get out of them. Poise doesn't count IMO, because of the high poise required to escape some of the most damaging weapons. With the current DkS fighting, I'm for Toggle escapes.

    And, Tolvo, you are one of the people who usually diffuse animosity and try to bring a different perspective. Those last 2 posts are so unlike you. I hope everything's OK.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:34 am

    Wait, you want to nerf the zweih set?

    1) its so ridiculously difficult to land even a single r1 against a good player that the hit really needs to remove most or all of the enemies hp because, at least in my experience, I'm not likely to land another blow.

    2) The DGM doesn't stunlock for any duration. Rolling out of the first hit is entirely possible.

    3) The zweihander can only swing 4 times on a full stamina bar, so again, in my experience, a combo of more than 3 hits is unlikely, and even all 4 hits will only deal like 1700 damage, meaning sl 100's should survive, if only just. Those that can't are gimped or have magic.

    4) the zweih only does like 150 more damage (1/3rd more damage) than a kat, while swinging at roughly 1/3rd the speed (2/3rds less speed than the kat). Stunlocks/combo's are the only thing keeping them viable against that imbalance.

    5) I've already explained that the "you don't need dead angles" fallacy is just that. Bleed dodge, uber fast moss, overcentralising around shotel r2s essentialy requiring everyone have a shotel or get kited out (further hindering str because their elemental version is horribly weak.) Untill a better shield system is in place, they are necessary.

    6) the zweih can be sight parried where pretty much every other class is impossible to sight parry, again meaning that without the ability to circumvent the parry, the zweih (and ug weapons in general) is gimped.

    I can go on.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SageOfToads123 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:01 am

    Great vid bro. happy

    I personally don't think it's realistic to just wave your hand and then BAM, you're out of a stun-lock. Just make weapons that are balanced and realistic and you're good.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Leet on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:50 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Wait, you want to nerf the zweih set?

    1) its so ridiculously difficult to land even a single r1 against a good player that the hit really needs to remove most or all of the enemies hp because, at least in my experience, I'm not likely to land another blow.

    2) The DGM doesn't stunlock for any duration. Rolling out of the first hit is entirely possible.

    3) The zweihander can only swing 4 times on a full stamina bar, so again, in my experience, a combo of more than 3 hits is unlikely, and even all 4 hits will only deal like 1700 damage, meaning sl 100's should survive, if only just. Those that can't are gimped or have magic.

    4) the zweih only does like 150 more damage (1/3rd more damage) than a kat, while swinging at roughly 1/3rd the speed (2/3rds less speed than the kat). Stunlocks/combo's are the only thing keeping them viable against that imbalance.

    5) I've already explained that the "you don't need dead angles" fallacy is just that. Bleed dodge, uber fast moss, overcentralising around shotel r2s essentialy requiring everyone have a shotel or get kited out (further hindering str because their elemental version is horribly weak.) Untill a better shield system is in place, they are necessary.

    6) the zweih can be sight parried where pretty much every other class is impossible to sight parry, again meaning that without the ability to circumvent the parry, the zweih (and ug weapons in general) is gimped.

    I can go on.
    Chyeah, +1. Nerfing the Zwei would make it harder to use than it already is. I'll add the word "useless" to that statement also.


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