No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

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    No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by martyrsbrigade99 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:41 am

    So, from what I've heard, there will no longer be toggle escaping in Dks2.
    My thoughts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fraduPxMBE


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by robsthedon on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:43 am

    Nice upload Martyrs, I agree with most of what you say, I think toggling adds depth, but I don't see the point of deliberately lowing my poise to toggle. I toggle if I've been sloppy, not be sloppy so I can toggle. For pvp the best ring choices imo excluding casters and rfap, are dwgr wolf or hornet, I dislike dwgr and hornet, so i choose the wolf and with 40+ end i can have poise, seems the best option for me.

    Also the low weight armours are for low endurance builds, you talk as if 125 is the only soul level.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:26 pm

    Don't like getting stunlocked? Get Poise.
    Don't have Poise? Get stunlocked and die.

    Even better, use your i-frames, but Poise is a good safety net if rolling fails for some reason. Lag is almighty and all that.

    Toggle Escape is an excuse so people can use whatever gear, regardless of Poise and abuse this exploit to get out of stunlock, which are supposed to be their bane.

    That said, I am all for removing infinite stunlocks. 2-3 hits max. Even from something like Murakumo, or Zweihander, you have a good chance of surviving 2-3 hits, unless the weapon is buffed, or your Vit gimped.

    Toggles Escape was in Demon's Souls. Why is it in Dark Souls? Who knows, go ask FROM. I believe that it remained in the game because it's probably too complicated to remove and it's a decent counter against Dead Angles. Since Dark Souls II will use a different engine, there's a good chance none of these exploits will be there, but there may be new ones instead.


    Last edited by Sentiel on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:34 pm

    Good video, you make some interesting points. It's true toggle escaping makes low poise builds more viable, but seeing as stunlock was intended to punish people with low poise and toggle escape is in any way you look at it an unintended glitch/exploit it should be removed. But yes- there needs to be something to stop stunlocking being the centre of PvP.

    As I've said in other threads, to me the best solution is taking out toggle escaping and making stun locks a certain number of hits- then you are knocked down. This would be based on the type of weapon, so to me if a great hammer hits you and stuns you, you should get floored immediately or on 2nd hit after stunlock. Something like a dagger or curved sword would take a few more hits.

    Right now, it is very exploitable and makes poise almost pointless and if you do it very purposefully it can get stupid. While it's beneficial for infinite stunlock, if infinite stunlock is taken away, I think that would be a good compromise to remove something that honestly I feel takes away from the realism in souls combat. It feels kinda cheap to do it to me at least.

    I don't think replacing toggle escape is the real problem for me, as realistically there's no action anyone could take to unstun themselves without it being BS. To me, just making it so that stunlock doesn't mean instant death is the solution that would be best.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by robsthedon on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:03 pm

    Toggling as effectivley removed stunlocking metawise, i.e. to stunkock you are going to spam r1, very dangerous against a good toggler, which adds alot more depth, which can only be a good thing, right?


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:14 pm

    robsthedon wrote:Toggling as effectivley removed stunlocking metawise, i.e. to stunkock you are going to spam r1, very dangerous against a good toggler, which adds alot more depth, which can only be a good thing, right?
    With everyone toggling, there's no point in having stunlock weapons and it makes combos useless as well. It renders whole Poise system absolete. As such it does not add depth. On the contrary, it removes depth by making several game features less viable.

    The only positive thing about Toggle Escape is that it enables you to counter Dead Angles.

    That said, I still strongly believe that infinite stunlocks should be completely removed and changed to 2, or 3 hit stunlocks, with the number of hits per stunlock depending on the weapons length.

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by robsthedon on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:15 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    robsthedon wrote:Toggling as effectivley removed stunlocking metawise, i.e. to stunkock you are going to spam r1, very dangerous against a good toggler, which adds alot more depth, which can only be a good thing, right?
    With everyone toggling, there's no point in having stunlock weapons and it makes combos useless as well. It renders whole Poise system absolete. As such it does not add depth. On the contrary, it removes depth by making several game features less viable.

    The only positive thing about Toggle Escape is that it enables you to counter Dead Angles.

    That said, I still strongly believe that infinite stunlocks should be completely removed and changed to 2, or 3 hit stunlocks, with the number of hits per stunlock depending on the weapons length.

    By toggling you wont get stunlocked, seems you want your cake and eat it.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Lorrac ESP on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:54 pm

    Toggle escape renders several game mechanics superfluous and it is a good thing it is being fixed.

    As for your video, your argument is flawed... now that you mastered toggle scape you can be as sloppy as if you stacked poise since the result is the same, you won't get stunlocked.

    You just like this glitch because it lets you chose whatever gear you find aesthetically pleasant and allows you more flexibility with your ring slots since you aren't tied with a wolf's or havel's.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Sneezer on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:05 pm

    Here's hoping the PvP system in DkS2 will actually be arguably balanced, the fact that toggle escaping is necessary in Dark or Demon's at all shows imbalance.
    Hopefully they'll be able to exclude dead angling as well by rebalancing.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:24 pm

    robsthedon wrote:By toggling you wont get stunlocked, seems you want your cake and eat it.
    I don't think that's quite fair. Toggling is obviously a glitch, whether fromsoft decided after the fact that it's a good thing or not doesn't change that. It makes no sense. The correct course of action is to balance dark souls 2 properly so that it's not needed.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:47 am

    Is that so? You know, many well balanced mmo's/fighters have both stun combo's and escapes built in. Leaving the toggle (or implimenting another method) could well be a part of balancing "properly," especially as it adds a player driven method of escapes and strategy rather than a engine enforced autoescape.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:31 am

    Everytime i think leave in toggle escape i bump into a flinja nipper who i spend 2 mins chasing around the place and anytime i get near a combo they toggle escape. I'd go with sents system, limit the hits for a stunlock, dunno how it will be done though, more stamina consumption for a swing, a set stunned time?


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:32 am

    As I've said before, if this is true I'll probably not be playing Dark Souls 2 online at all.

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:01 am

    I think the removal of toggling is a horrible idea (unless of course there is a different method for escaping stunlocks in DaS2). From should just do their best to remove stunlocking from DaS2 (and balance the game around this) and leave toggling in (or create an intended mechanic that serves the same purpose) as a safety net.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:09 am

    So you want to keep toggling in and remove stunlocking to make poise pointless? I think that's going way too far here

    Honestly, I don't understand why you guys are so hell bent on keeping this glitch/exploit/whatever in. Sure it's useful for stunlocks, but when people purposefully rock 0 poise armours and use toggle escape to make up for it and use it to BS or parry then I think it gets a little bit overboard.

    To me an escape mechanic if implemented would be one that means you literally have to escape- you have to move away from the opponent. Otherwise you get stuff like toggle parries or BS which are stupid anyway you look at them.

    I'd be fine with an escape mechanic- but it would need to be for me a) not a glitch/exploit, b) Is an evasive and defensive action that cannot be used offensively c) couldn't be used to emulate the abilities of poise builds such as poise parries or poise BS, which toggling can enable on low poise builds


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:14 am

    Because currently there isn't an escape mechanic.  I'd rather them have an escape mechanic even if unintentional.  If they have an escape mechanic implemented for Dark Souls 2 then I'm fine with that, if they don't however with laggy connections playing online just won't be worth it.  

    It is the same reason why I'm fine with dead angles, it is a way to deal with turtles that doesn't require a specific build while also not leaving yourself easily punishable.  Dead Angles are necessary for fighting turtles, if they make turtles less powerful and create a way to get around a shield with weapons alone next game then fine remove dead angles, but until they add actual mechanics I prefer the glitches to a poorly designed combat system.

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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:17 am

    Serious_Much wrote:So you want to keep toggling in and remove stunlocking to make poise pointless?
    Nope. I never said anything about making poise pointless.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:28 am

    SlintEastwood wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:So you want to keep toggling in and remove stunlocking to make poise pointless?
    Nope. I never said anything about making poise pointless.
    If you remove stunlocking completely but keepin toggling you're essentially making poise pointless. That was what I was saying.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:31 am

    Serious_Much wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:So you want to keep toggling in and remove stunlocking to make poise pointless?
    Nope. I never said anything about making poise pointless.
    If you remove stunlocking completely but keepin toggling you're essentially making poise pointless. 
    Nope.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:35 am

    SlintEastwood wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:So you want to keep toggling in and remove stunlocking to make poise pointless?
    Nope. I never said anything about making poise pointless.
    If you remove stunlocking completely but keepin toggling you're essentially making poise pointless. 
    Nope.
    Care to explain your point? The whole point of poise is to prevent you from being stunned and to reduce chance of stunlock- stunlocking not being a threat any more reduces the point of poise, while the continued use of toggle to emulate techniques like poise parry and poise BS makes the poise system obsolete, all you've got left for poise builds then is tanking to exchange hits.

    The problem with both dead angles and toggle escape for me is they're fine if you do use them for what you guys defend it for- not allowing infinite stun locks and diffusing turtles, respectively. However to me the fact that they can be used beyond that and extend into general play as essentially a workaround to other key gameplay mechanics (as toggle escape does with poise), it goes too far and hence is not ok. If toggle escape only worked when you were getting combo'd then I wouldn't care- when people use it to parry I start thinking it's not such a good thing


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:39 am

    Serious_Much wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:So you want to keep toggling in and remove stunlocking to make poise pointless?
    Nope. I never said anything about making poise pointless.
    If you remove stunlocking completely but keepin toggling you're essentially making poise pointless. 
    Nope.
    all you've got left for poise builds then is tanking to exchange hits.
    Exactly.
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:43 am

    You honestly think that allowing toggle escape to enable low poise builds to toggle to BS or parry is a good idea then?

    Also I don't think exchange tanking is enough to make up for the weight (and possibly movement speed) you have to sacrifice for poise. The poise BS is something i don't think is ok, but the poise parry should remain exclusive to high poise builds. Giving low poise builds that option through means of a glitch is nonsensical

    seriously, you actually need to explain your position rather than use one word answers otherwise this isn't gonna get anywhere


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:59 am

    Serious_Much wrote:You honestly think that allowing toggle escape to enable low poise builds to toggle to BS or parry is a good idea then?

    Also I don't think exchange tanking is enough to make up for the weight (and possibly movement speed) you have to sacrifice for poise. The poise BS is something i don't think is ok, but the poise parry should remain exclusive to high poise builds. Giving low poise builds that option through means of a glitch is nonsensical

    seriously, you actually need to explain your position rather than use one word answers otherwise this isn't gonna get anywhere
    I never implied that toggle bsing or parrying was a good idea (though I have no problem with toggle parrying. If someone doesn't want to get toggle parried then they should try getting good).

    As far as exchanging goes I definitely think it's worth it. Being able to tank say, a kat hit in a clay vs kat matchup is extremely helpful. Also, I don't see anything wrong with poise backstabs against certain attacks (those attacks being thrusting sword turtle pokes and every spear attack).
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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by robsthedon on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:09 am

    AnCapaillMor wrote:Everytime i think leave in toggle escape i bump into a flinja nipper who i spend 2 mins chasing around the place and anytime i get near a combo they toggle escape. I'd go with sents system, limit the hits for a stunlock, dunno how it will be done though, more stamina consumption for a swing, a set stunned time?
    That's another issue. Don't think there will be flipping in DkS2.

    Toggling does not make poise redundedant, most still have at least 31 poise. You still take damage, so evasion is still best, and the players who toggle on 1st hit to bs or parry the follow up hit are just fishing for a crit, a good trade you might say, but if you know that's their strategy you can counter, I still think poise and evading hits is better and should win the day.


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    Re: No more toggling in Dks2? Here's my take....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:25 am

    SlintEastwood wrote:
    I never implied that toggle bsing or parrying was a good idea (though I have no problem with toggle parrying. If someone doesn't want to get toggle parried then they should try getting good)..
    Really? "Getting good"? I don't think saying that from the perspective of someone abusing a glitch to do it can really say that. toggle parries and BS are both ridiculous because you should be stunned and incapable of offensive action when you do it. That's why it's bad. Saying otherwise is neglecting the nature of the method you used to parry that person. They're both bad to me, as they shouldn't happen, simple as that.

    SlintEastwood wrote:
    As far as exchanging goes I definitely think it's worth it. Being able to tank say, a kat hit in a clay vs kat matchup is extremely helpful. Also, I don't see anything wrong with poise backstabs against certain attacks (those attacks being thrusting sword turtle pokes and every spear attack).
    The key problem with this though is assuming poise builds use weapons that can always out exchange. Essentially then your idea gimps poise users with weaker weapons even more- as the only thing that you leave poise with is rendered irrelevant due to their weapon choice. So essentially your proposal reduces potential for viable build variety as well as spoiling the point of poise

    @robs- yes you still take damage, but so do poise builds. Using toggle to create a parry or perform a BS is exactly the same as when a poise build uses poise to do so. The key difference though, is they sacrificed equip weight, movement speed and stamina regeneration to do so, and you used a glitch to bypass the poise mechanics. It completely gimps the guys who actually make a build choice and sacrifices to allow them to do so.


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