Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

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    OminousSquaffle
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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by OminousSquaffle on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:25 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:We will agree to disagree TooLeet. I believe you are wrong. Because of my experience in the game and how I had proven it to people who had your mind set. OHKO builds are called easy mode and try hard methods of fighting for a reason. Everyone here who is a "legit" veteran player knows this. The game is designed to be the most difficult to play for any gamer. Yet to make things easier on the player there are items and buffs designed into the game to allow it to be easy. Where is the real challenge of a OHKO play style? Really tell me I don't see it. I believe your must win at all cost mindset has kind of blinded you to the fact of why these items are called buffs. They are to provide the player with a greater advantage during pvp game play. Not harder...but easy. Hence "easy mode". If you choose to fight in easy mode then that is your choice as a player but you really are not challenging yourself as a true veteran player. Remember the game is supposed to be difficult, not easy. Again OHKO play style is called "easy mode" for a reason. Its easy to use and anyone can utilize this style of game play effectively. What is ignorant is a person saying buffs do not provide an advantage at all and it takes skill to use them. You are equating skill with item usage. They are both totally different. You can back stab without a hornet ring and darkmoon blade. The difference is one play style is designed to provide a OHKO amount of damage where the other is not, unless your fighting someone with almost no HP. I am sure even you recognize the difference right? Buff-spells, items, and rings designed to enhance weapon or spell damage output. Skill- dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks. I hope you learn the difference between both because despite what you may think they really are two different things. What is ignorant is not knowing this. Just my opin.
    So I know I'm not Leet and all but I see quite a bit wrong with this (or at least what I decided to try and decipher, PLEASE use proper paragraphing in the future) and I've got some spare time, sooo...

    Let's, again, evaluate the term "Glass cannon." since you didn't seem to understand what Leet was trying to communicate when he covered the the topic before (which is odd, I understood it pretty well)

    It's a cannon, but...it's glass. Glass is fragile. It's a OHKO build both ways. They get you first, you're dead. You get them first, they're dead. Mistime an attack? You're screwed. Let's also take into account the timer--most glass cannons use PW. So you know you have to bait them so you can get your shot in without getting blasted...but you don't have much time to set it up, because you're bleeding yourself dry every passing moment to get in the extra damage you need.

    You've got seconds left to make a dozen split-second decisions regarding timing, setup, whether to block or roll, whether you have time to hit them with Dark Bead before you get pancaked by that already-in-motion running Zwei attack... and during those seconds you've also generally got at LEAST a couple of gung-ho derpwads coming at you full throttle. It's essentially a much higher-stakes version of the way normal anti-ganksquad fights play out.

    Also, even just, uh, ignoring all that ^ I've NEVER, in over a year of stalking this and many other DkS forums, heard anyone call glass cannons "easy mode" or "tryhard". Those terms are reserved for the goobers with the gold tracers, dark magic, black flame and full Havel's. No offense meant to said goobers, I'm a goober too :3 just a different sort of goober.

    Also, this isn't my argument and you weren't directing all that at me, but....your sardonic tone was pretty uncalled for. Jussayin'

    Thanks for sharing your "opin" though happy


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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Leet on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:36 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:We will agree to disagree TooLeet. I believe you are wrong. Because of my experience in the game and how I had proven it to people who had your mind set. OHKO builds are called easy mode and try hard methods of fighting for a reason. Everyone here who is a "legit" veteran player knows this. The game is designed to be the most difficult to play for any gamer. Yet to make things easier on the player there are items and buffs designed into the game to allow it to be easy. Where is the real challenge of a OHKO play style? Really tell me I don't see it. I believe your must win at all cost mindset has kind of blinded you to the fact of why these items are called buffs. They are to provide the player with a greater advantage during pvp game play. Not harder...but easy. Hence "easy mode". If you choose to fight in easy mode then that is your choice as a player but you really are not challenging yourself as a true veteran player. Remember the game is supposed to be difficult, not easy. Again OHKO play style is called "easy mode" for a reason. Its easy to use and anyone can utilize this style of game play effectively. What is ignorant is a person saying buffs do not provide an advantage at all and it takes skill to use them. You are equating skill with item usage. They are both totally different. You can back stab without a hornet ring and darkmoon blade. The difference is one play style is designed to provide a OHKO amount of damage where the other is not, unless your fighting someone with almost no HP. I am sure even you recognize the difference right? Buff-spells, items, and rings designed to enhance weapon or spell damage output. Skill- dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks. I hope you learn the difference between both because despite what you may think they really are two different things. What is ignorant is not knowing this. Just my opin.

    First of all, i am not a try hard. And don't have the mind set where i do everything possible to win. That's just not me. Also, you must not understand the term "Glass Cannon." I guess i have to explain this again because you didn't get it the first time. A glass cannon is fragile. Depending on the SL and build, they have really low health. A couple hits from a big weapon such as a Zwei or Mura and a glass cannon is dead. They're not meant to take hits. They're meant to deal a great bit of damage at once. Not so much at once, but if you do so what.

    Glass cannons are not "easy mode." Glass cannons can be very hard to use against an experienced player. And why do you say "Dks veteran" is every single one of your posts. 

    Buffs are not easy mode either. I'll guess i'll explain this one more time. I really don't get how your misunderstanding such a simple subject. Depending on the SL (ie: SL100) you will have to make sacrifices to buff. Such as sacrificing VIT and END to meet the requirements to be able to buff. That means you will have less health, and less poise/defense. That's just an example. 



    The way you're explaining it is that there's primarily 1 or 2 builds that conquer all, which is not the case. I hope i described that (again) in a fashion you can understand. 

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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:11 pm

    I think a simple way to think of it is this.

    Glass cannons are easy mode against questers or normal random invaders.

    Against duelists they're harder to use.

    In regards to random PvP, you can ambush, set up situations where the other person can't defend against your burst.

    In a duel they are aware of you and can see you and what your build is, there isn't that ambush factor.

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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by lorenzo110 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:31 am

    OK let me explain it to you guys this way. I do not play the game the way you seem to play it. Most here play via the 120 build restrictions rule. I don't buy that mind set. If the game devs believed in this cap they would have set max level at 120. And with that being said many still don't follow this because they seem to level between 125 to 130 or slightly more. I find it hypocritical but that's another subject all itself. Buffs are buffs we all agree with that because it seems none of you are disputing the idea that they are meant to make this game easier not harder. Whether it is a glass canon or other similar easy mode type styles of game play. Since I do not subscribe to the idea of "builds" I simply call them what they are...styles of fighting. And we can agree to disagree but I think they are limited at that. The main purpose of these "builds" are to OHKO opponents. By maximizing and stacking every buff possible to allow an instant kill to occur.  No dispute there right?

    Now as I was explaining these tactics of over buffing are free to be used in the game, anyone can use them and also see substantial increase in win ratio occur. No dispute there right? So where is the skill? As I have stated before in past posts I am a veteran player. I have played thousands of hours on both DS and DKS and platinum on both. Fought thousands of players on pvp. 99 percent all use buffs in one form or another. It is extremely rare to run into a real fighter who does not use any kind of buff, whether ring, item, or spell, in this game in order to compete. I guess many of you may not like the fact that I lump all buffs into a single category. But as I have said before it is "My own experience" that I am speaking from. Period. Because many of you do not play higher then 150 sl, which is limiting yourself to all challenges and different experiences of game play.  

    In the last six months I have seen at the most 20 players who I came across who did not employ any kind of buff to fight. These real veteran players, regardless of level, played the game in a very unique way that to me is very much respected and admired. 16 of these fighters were Japanese players. The other four were fellow forum members. Bushido, Martrys, Reim, and FinPeku. When I fought against these four guys they did not use any ring, spell, or item buff. They played a skill based style of fighting. Solely relying on skill alone. Again... solely relying on "Skill Alone". It is because of the way they chose to enter a fight against me , skill against skill, that I have the utmost respect for these true warriors of the DKS community. You see fighting buffers are a dime a dozen. This game is infested with players who simply rely on buffs to fight and yes buffs are not skill. Unfortunately some seem to think it is. But it's not. 6 months wading through a mound of crappy buffing players I find 20 diamonds who exhibit the fortitude to play in a skill based style that is very rare to find these days. If there was a Knights of the Roundtable these 20 would be in it.

    Now I can already hear you guys snickering at this saying "Some of the guys use buffs." When I encountered them they did not. And I know when someone is buffing with Leo or Hornets. When I encountered all 20 including the forum 4 they faced me buff free. It is my belief that you who are of the mind that buffing is essential to your game play can learn a lot from these guys. More then a lot. I may not agree with everything these 4 may have to say on DKS, but that is what its suppose to be like in a community. Everyone is different. Where you find common ground and respect is on the battle field. And those who tend to challenge themselves by playing "no buffs" style  earn my utmost respect. Because then there is no excuse to why you lost and the better skill at that time wins the day. Fortunately for me I won the day but these 20 guys along with the forum 4 are what DKS pvp is all about. Great "Skilled" players will bring the best out of you and raise your game to a higher level. There's nothing to be learned from a buffer and those fights along with the buffing player are easily forgotten. But when you run into that one Diamond of a player its those fights that stay with you days and months. I remember the 20 and all others I forget. Just my opin.
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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Moalover on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:20 am

    Alright, i keep supporting that playing buffed requires the same or even more skill than playing unbuffed and i believe stating that buff users will never be elite player is silly(yes i'm assuming the sl 100/120/125 cap hypothesis because we have been assuming it from the beginning, that's exactly the point to me, making builds more diverse and balanced...) but this argument can go on and on and on, because some of us are simply ignoring the counterpart's arguments and repeating ourselfves over and over again wich is simply pointless, so, leave it at that, it was not the point of this thread anyway.


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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by OminousSquaffle on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:55 am

    lorenzo110 wrote:OK let me explain it to you guys this way. I do not play the game the way you seem to play it. Most here play via the 120 build restrictions rule. I don't buy that mind set. If the game devs believed in this cap they would have set max level at 120. And with that being said many still don't follow this because they seem to level between 125 to 130 or slightly more. I find it hypocritical but that's another subject all itself. Buffs are buffs we all agree with that because it seems none of you are disputing the idea that they are meant to make this game easier not harder. Whether it is a glass canon or other similar easy mode type styles of game play. Since I do not subscribe to the idea of "builds" I simply call them what they are...styles of fighting. And we can agree to disagree but I think they are limited at that. The main purpose of these "builds" are to OHKO opponents. By maximizing and stacking every buff possible to allow an instant kill to occur.  No dispute there right?

    Now as I was explaining these tactics of over buffing are free to be used in the game, anyone can use them and also see substantial increase in win ratio occur. No dispute there right? So where is the skill? As I have stated before in past posts I am a veteran player. I have played thousands of hours on both DS and DKS and platinum on both. Fought thousands of players on pvp. 99 percent all use buffs in one form or another. It is extremely rare to run into a real fighter who does not use any kind of buff, whether ring, item, or spell, in this game in order to compete. I guess many of you may not like the fact that I lump all buffs into a single category. But as I have said before it is "My own experience" that I am speaking from. Period. Because many of you do not play higher then 150 sl, which is limiting yourself to all challenges and different experiences of game play.  

    In the last six months I have seen at the most 20 players who I came across who did not employ any kind of buff to fight. These real veteran players, regardless of level, played the game in a very unique way that to me is very much respected and admired. 16 of these fighters were Japanese players. The other four were fellow forum members. Bushido, Martrys, Reim, and FinPeku. When I fought against these four guys they did not use any ring, spell, or item buff. They played a skill based style of fighting. Solely relying on skill alone. Again... solely relying on "Skill Alone". It is because of the way they chose to enter a fight against me , skill against skill, that I have the utmost respect for these true warriors of the DKS community. You see fighting buffers are a dime a dozen. This game is infested with players who simply rely on buffs to fight and yes buffs are not skill. Unfortunately some seem to think it is. But it's not. 6 months wading through a mound of crappy buffing players I find 20 diamonds who exhibit the fortitude to play in a skill based style that is very rare to find these days. If there was a Knights of the Roundtable these 20 would be in it.

    Now I can already hear you guys snickering at this saying "Some of the guys use buffs." When I encountered them they did not. And I know when someone is buffing with Leo or Hornets. When I encountered all 20 including the forum 4 they faced me buff free. It is my belief that you who are of the mind that buffing is essential to your game play can learn a lot from these guys. More then a lot. I may not agree with everything these 4 may have to say on DKS, but that is what its suppose to be like in a community. Everyone is different. Where you find common ground and respect is on the battle field. And those who tend to challenge themselves by playing "no buffs" style  earn my utmost respect. Because then there is no excuse to why you lost and the better skill at that time wins the day. Fortunately for me I won the day but these 20 guys along with the forum 4 are what DKS pvp is all about. Great "Skilled" players will bring the best out of you and raise your game to a higher level. There's nothing to be learned from a buffer and those fights along with the buffing player are easily forgotten. But when you run into that one Diamond of a player its those fights that stay with you days and months. I remember the 20 and all others I forget. Just my opin.
    Well, you're on the right track with using paragraphs this time. Just, uh, smaller paragraphs next time please, I'm nearsighted.

    Just to cover a few tidbits before I crash for the night, it's nearly four in the morning here...

    "And with that being said many still don't follow this because they seem to level between 125 to 130 or slightly more. I find it hypocritical but that's another subject all itself."

    The misuse of hypocritical...it hurts....

    "Since I do not subscribe to the idea of "builds" I simply call them what they are...styles of fighting"

    Don't even know what to make of this. I don't mean any offense but your posts make my head hurt...lots of unfinished and unnecessarily overcomplicated thoughts with random big words tossed in and hsbdgdbg. Styles of fighting are not builds. Styles of fighting are the way you HANDLE builds in-game.

    I'm already getting tired of quoting you (everything's tiring at four in the morning) so, I'll just respond without quoting and hope you can figure out what part of that massive wall of text I'm responding to.

    I can't brag of spending thousands of hours on either of those games (really do wish I had that much free time, buuut...) but I've spent an excess of five hundred hours on Dark Souls, most of that PvP, and you're vastly exaggerating the number of buffing players. Buffs are common, but they're not THAT common, and before you pull the "just my experience" baloney again, no two players will have that vastly different amount of exposure to common elements playing the same game at the same levels for a large period of time.

    Oh, what the hell, back to quoting you again.

    "Because many of you do not play higher then 150 sl, which is limiting yourself to all challenges and different experiences of game play."

    This is another of the many thoughts you had that I'm sure was great but doesn't exactly mean much in its current state since it's self-contradictory due to poor wording. So by sticking to standard levels, we are limiting ourself to ALL chall...wait, what?

    "In the last six months I have seen at the most 20 players who I came across who did not employ any kind of buff to fight."

    I really hope you say this counting green blossom as a buff, otherwise I call pure BS. I also find it doubtful that you happen to remember the nationality of sixteen random players you've met over a very extended period of time.

    "This game is infested with players who simply rely on buffs to fight and yes buffs are not skill. Unfortunately some seem to think it is. But it's not. 6 months wading through a mound of crappy buffing players I find 20 diamonds who exhibit the fortitude to play in a skill based style that is very rare to find these days. If there was a Knights of the Roundtable these 20 would be in it."

    I've respected you enough to refrain from insulting/discounting your opinions thusfar (I've simply defended mine) so I'm going to politely ask you refrain from stating your opinions (which are apparently in the minority) as undisputed fact. I'd also appreciate it if you didn't refer to buffers as crappy/imply they're all bad players/etc as that's an unfair and downright ignorant generalization.

    Can't be bothered to keep quoting you, so, to reply to the rest of your post...

    -I never claimed buffs were essential to my playstyle or that I relied on them. In fact, three of my five builds are variations on the standard quality build that don't utilize any buffs (unless you're counting green blossom as a buff). I simply stated that I highly disagree with your sweeping statement that buff builds require no skill/are easy mode/etc.

    I'm sorry, I would keep going but I'm getting a bit sick of this and we're derailing the topic AND my eyelids are drooping, so....I'm obviously not going to change your opinion, so I'm simply going to ask that you stop generalizing and making sweeping statements that are, quite simply, both unjustified and untrue. Namely repeatedly making such ridiculous statements as "All buffers are crappy players" "Nothing can be learned from buffers" "Buffers are easy mode & tryhard" and all that fun shtuff.

    TL;DR: I really don't have a problem with the fact that your opinion is different than mine. I have a problem with the manner and tone with which you've been stating your opinion.


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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by lorenzo110 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:43 am

    LOL well again I will simply state my opinion. And in your post you lost me with your criticizing of the word hypocrisy. You may want to look that up in a dictionary sometime buddy.  Because when people claim to be 120 players and they make these ridiculous comments about those fighting over 120 then it turns out they are not at all 120 fighters. Well I am sure you now see how "hypocrisy" is an appropriate word for those kinds of people my young friend. But hey good luck with your trying to nit pick there. Failed but oh well. So since you lost me there I find it really a lost cause to explain anything else to you. But hey good luck. And hit the books buddy. Hypocrisy. It's not that difficult a word to understand in the context of the paragraph. As Fez would say on "That 70s Show"...I said good day, sir!  Just my opin.
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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Leet on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:50 am

    For a Dks "veteran" you have a lot to learn.

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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:01 pm

    Lorenzo please do not point out the age of people to try and talk down to them.

    I should also mention I have extremely high SL and low SL builds along with my 100-120's builds.  In my personal experience people at much higher SL's generally do not know much about the meta and rely too heavily on having the ability to out-stat lower level invaders.  Some are good, but I find there are just as many bad players that are high SL as there are ones that are low SL.  The SL you play at does not determine your skill, nor does the idea of using buffs.  The only case in which buffs really can inhibit a person is cookie cutter Falchion builds, but that is because they lose experience fighting people that will die in seconds and forget how to space/etc.  Most other buff builds don't kill in essentially an instant.

    Also why would you lump rings in with buffS?  We aren't allowed to fill one of our slots?  Well I guess we better not let people wear masks, or Dusk's Crown.  

    Lorenzo, stop trying to be so condescending to people and actually read what they are saying and talk about it rather than just talking down to everyone.  You are talking at people but not talking with them.  Learn to talk with them.
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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Shroomerz420 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:36 pm

    Oh how I wish I could go back to 2009...

    Those were the days. thumbs up 

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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by OminousSquaffle on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:35 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:LOL well again I will simply state my opinion. And in your post you lost me with your criticizing of the word hypocrisy. You may want to look that up in a dictionary sometime buddy.  Because when people claim to be 120 players and they make these ridiculous comments about those fighting over 120 then it turns out they are not at all 120 fighters. Well I am sure you now see how "hypocrisy" is an appropriate word for those kinds of people my young friend. But hey good luck with your trying to nit pick there. Failed but oh well. So since you lost me there I find it really a lost cause to explain anything else to you. But hey good luck. And hit the books buddy. Hypocrisy. It's not that difficult a word to understand in the context of the paragraph. As Fez would say on "That 70s Show"...I said good day, sir!  Just my opin.
    You lost any and all credibility and respect from me and, I'm sure, others the moment you pulled the age card. Not that there was a lot of it to lose, you were already being unacceptably condescending. Actual age is generally irrelevant online, where in my experience many of the youth behave more maturely than some of the "adults". Case very heavily in point...no, that's not an insult, that's a statement of fact. Just calling a spade a spade here.

    People like that claim to be 120-ISH fighters, because that's the standard PvP cap. Sometimes they need the five extra points for their build so they become a 125. This is hardly "hypocrisy" (hypocrisy would be preaching about how 120 is THE level and then making a level 199) and I'd thank you to watch your tone, again.

    I'd like examples of where I nitpicked, seems to me like I just stated very big, obvious opinions. You also conveniently ignored the rest of my post in lieu of trying to antagonize me on one part so, again, credibility >>>> door.

    Along the lines of hypocrisy, I'd highly suggest you learn to spell "Opinion" and form a basic paragraph before telling others to hit the books.

    If you have another fascinating reply to that, please send it in PM as we've now succeeded in thoroughly de-railing the topic.

    And Tolvo, mate...



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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by Shroomerz420 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:13 pm

    Here's some advice for everyone...

    When online, talk to each other as if you were standing face to face. Chances are you would be a little more understanding and not so abrasive.

    Then again, the internet would be pretty boring if we all did that. big hug
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    Re: Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:34 pm

    There are so many ways to play this game. It makes it awesome, but it can also make it divisive, as everyone instinctively develops their own sense of "fair play".

    I've used buffs, and I still use buffs. I rarely, however, use magic buffs. Huge expenditure of stats that serves to encourage kiting. Interestingly, a rapier + HR's BS doesn't do much more damage than a 40/40 Clay without a HR (riposte is a different story)

    However, I adapt my playstyle to where I'm fighting. Be it Forest, no rules FCs, pickup duels (Host sets the rules), or individual duel rules.

    I will say though, many times I have more fun with low level invading, when people aren't using megapowered stacked weapons. That "Invasion of the Lowbies" event was awesome.


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