No hate for the RoFaP

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    Aigaios
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    No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Aigaios on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:59 am

    Since a lot of things that are overused or overpowered are also seen as cheap to used i dont understand why there was never any hate towards this ring. It is by far the most overused item in the game being used by almost everyone in almost every build that peope make, it is also incredibly overpowered increasing max health, max stamina and max equip burden by 20%. In a way making your character 20% better then it is and all it requires in a ring slot.

    In my opinion if you are the kind that openly express their negative opinion of cheap or overused items and players then you should stop using this ring at once. If you think there's a reason why this ring is not overpowered, overused and should not be considered cheap then please explain.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:10 am

    I don't think it's cheap as it's not something that reduces effectiveness of other builds like DWGR or something that causes increased damage for no forseeable drawback (hornet ring, buffs). I consider it instead to be an enabler. I'm fairly sure almost everyone and their mothers use the enabling rings fap and havels because it just makes builds better.

    I don't think it receives hate as noone can tell fi you're using it in PvP, it's not as obvious or obnoxiously in your face like the animations for dwgr and hornet ring or the glowing buff on the end of someone's sword.

    Btw, this isn't to say I think any of the things I listed above are cheap, I was just using examples to explain what i meant


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:57 am

    I don't think any of the gear in game is a problem personally. There are differences in effectiveness but that's going to be true regardless. Popularity rises with effectiveness. "Cheap" in my opinion is just a synonym for popular gear. When something gets used enough it becomes the new "cheap." I've seen the term get cycled through a large number of items in this game already. I have actually, seen a few people hate on this ring too. But like Serious said, since it's not as obvious that it's in use (even though it is) it gets less words about it.

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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:40 pm

    It's fine, I tend to avoid it because I like to remain versatile, but sometimes there is just no way around it.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by BrotherBob on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:18 pm

    The reason that I don't think that any of the rings are "cheap" is because it takes up a ring slot - because you have to make a deliberate sacrifice to use it. Instead of the RoFaP, the user could have equipped Havel's for even more max equip weight (which would have allowed even greater DEFs and Poise with Giants or Havel's), equipped the Wolf Ring for more poise on a poise-less build, etc. Essentially, there are notable advantages to its use, but there are also notable disadvantages. In my books, I call that "balance"; I use "cheap" when there is a notable "imbalance".


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:55 pm

    I think that one ring slot is a pretty big deal, to tell the truth.  Think of the rings that might go in that spot:  Havel, Wolf, BDCR, Cloranthy, RotSF, Hornet, Leo, all of which give a pretty significant boost to playstyle and/or attack.  It's all personal, I know, but one can't discount any of the effects of those rings lightly.
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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:02 pm

    I don't think it's cheap as it's not something that reduces effectiveness of other builds like DWGR or something that causes increased damage for no forseeable drawback (hornet ring, buffs).
    This argumentative logic is not consistent.

    While it does not "offer increased damage" directly, it allows you to receive extra damage, and allows you more stamina with which to deal it.  If the hornet ring (ring slot) has "no forseeable drawback", then neither does RoFaP.  Buffs aren't even remotely comparable; you actually have to invest stats to use any decent buff aside from the resins.  How is it that a *conditional* 30% damage item is more frowned upon than a *guaranteed* global 20% boost to multiple statistics?  Logical inconsistency and bias, that's how.

    OP's point is actually very logical and solidly presented.  It just so happens that I fall into the category of players who doesn't make up pretend rules with inconsistent applications to selectively ban gear, and so I have no problem with ANY of the rings, equipment, weapons, or spells (barring hacked ones of course).  Strictly speaking from a logical perspective, however, FAP is one of the strongest rings in the game, if not *the* strongest ring in the game, and it's amusing that simply because its effects are not immediately apparent in a given moment people give it a pass.

    ~ 300hp, 32 stamina, and 16+ equip weight in one ring slot compares favorably to virtually anything.  Only a few weapons would require no extra hit to kill someone while wearing that (gives you a free hit compared to someone without it basically).  It is the *only* way to increase max stamina in this capacity, and it basically allows you to add a little extra defense or poise on top.

    Compare that to, say, 20% damage boost on spells or 30% boost on ONLY criticals, which you might never land, and it's not hard to see why so many people use it.  It's the strongest ring.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:13 pm

    Honestly, I don't think any ring is cheap. The only ring that is questionable is the Hornet Ring (I still don't think it is cheap though). There is a difference between "cheap" and powerful/effective.

    Back before the patch, the DWGR was considered cheap. The Wolf ring was not. When the DWGR got nerfed, there were many posts about how cheap the Wolf ring was. I was never cheap, it just became more useful.

    To me, cheap means using an extremely powerful item with minimal to no sacrifice and minimal to no counters. Rings don't fit that definition. Barely anything fits that definition for me.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:25 pm

    Just because I haven't said this in awhile:

    The Calamity Ring is the most unbalanced item in the game and no one complains if it's used. Point being, despite being truly the most imbalanced buff programmed in, since it hurts the wearer there's no complaint.

    So what's the real point? People complain because someone else has an advantage not when they have one. It's easy to label something as cheap but what's really being said is "waaaah" or something to that effect. Is some stuff more effective? Yes. Is some stuff easier to win with? Also yes. There's no such thing as perfect balance. And when the most unbalanced thing in the game is mentioned (literally, it's the calamity ring) the argument gets brushed aside. "Cheap" is never a balance argument. It's always a way to justify why someone else might beat you and rationalize it.

    For further reasoning why cheap is an illogical construct (in this game and short of hacking) I can make a comparison to what most people think is one of the few "perfectly balanced" games in existence.

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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:26 am

    I dislike the common use of the word "cheap", because I often go to use it to mean "inexpensive", then worry about the context.  For example, the GLGS has "cheap" attack rating when it comes to stat investment, as do elemental weapons, but that just sounds wrong when it's not the standard way to use that word as people might take it to mean that I believe those weapons are overpowered or unfair, which I don't big grin.

    Kind of silly really.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Juutas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:00 am

    The problem with rings is that they are wildly unbalanced.

    Why can't stone plate rings add 100 points defence (physical/lightning/fire/magic)?
    Why can't Wolf ring only add 20 poise intead of 40?
    Why can't Tiny being's ring add 20% hp?
    Why can't ring of favor add only 10-15% bonus to each of the stats?
    Why can't Havel's ring only add 30% more equip load?
    Why can't Hawk ring add dmg bonus on the ranged weapons?
    Why can't the ridicilous DWGR just disappear?


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:48 am

    I have no problem with RoFaP, but that's probably that every single build I have uses it. big grin
    However the only issue I can think of is rendering some other rings less useful.

    I really see no need for Tiny Being's Ring with it's 5% HP boost. I believe the ring was supposed to regen player's HP, just like Regenerator's Ring in Demon's Souls did, but FROM decided to change the ring to HP boost instead, because they probably wanted to avoid HP regen stacking, which was a huge problem in DeS.
    That said, the 5% HP boost is also quite pointless thanks to RoFaP giving 20%, not to mention other stats it boosts. If the values were opposite, or if RoFaP didn't boost HP at all, Tiny Being's Ring would become a much more useful.

    Havel's Ring adds 50% Equip Burden, which is 30% more than RoFaP, but those 20% are usually anough for people to get a lot of Poise. Especially when combined with Wolf Ring. So unless you plan to make a heavy build, which needs that extra 30%, people will always go with RoFaP instead.

    The rest works fine.
    Even seemingly useless Stoneplate and Bite rings work. They make some areas and bosses easier and have even use in PvP. Bloodbite is great for Lifehunt Scythe users. If you stack armor defences for some particular form of attack, Stoneplate, or Steel Protection rings can further boost it and reduce the damage received by suprisingly lot.

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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:42 am

    The reason nobody sees it as cheap is simple,I do not attack you using the ring. Dark bead,TWoP,hornet backstabs have on thing in common,they are used offensively. The FaP ring is not.
    Though personally,I wish it removed as it more or less means you only have one ring slot since most builds need it and it cannot be taken off.I know we are not forced to use the ring but it is simply too useful to pass up. It simply should not have three buffs and instead only buff one thing,like the other rings do.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:46 am

    KrazykevS10 wrote:The reason nobody sees it as cheap is simple,I do not attack you using the ring. Dark bead,TWoP,hornet backstabs have on thing in common,they are used offensively. The FaP ring is not.
    Though personally,I wish it removed as it more or less means you only have one ring slot since most builds need it and it cannot be taken off.I know we are not forced to use the ring but it is simply too useful to pass up. It simply should not have three buffs and instead only buff one thing,like the other rings do.
    This kind of thinking would solve problems though, the ring is then replaced with the next most useful ring. With DWGR taken off, next best ring that became "necessary" was fap ring. The next one would be Havel's.

    Even if we don't realise it, there's always gonna be that one ring that everyone uses as it's so good. Honestly I'd rather just keep FaP ring- at least it expands the range of builds and stats that people can use on a pvp-worthy build


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:12 am

    ^ While true, it IS silly as OP points out that rings that are frequently weaker get hate while the one used most commonly and is likely the strongest remaining ring is viewed as fine.

    That it boosts non-attacks rather than direct attack is irrelevant to its actual efficacy, as long as it boosts enough.  Of course, it's reasonably obvious that general hate over in-game options rarely follows a logically consistent pattern.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by PhlyingDutchman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:16 pm

    Juutas summed it up correctly, in that the main issue is a lack of parity between the levels of benefit that the different rings incur on their users, rather than the nature of the benefits themselves.

    Now, you want to talk all upside, no opportunity cost, check this out:
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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:36 pm

    Juutas summed it up correctly, in that the main issue is a lack of parity between the levels of benefit that the different rings incur on their users, rather than the nature of the benefits themselves.
    Indeed, it doesn't matter if the rings are all close to useless or all super-useful from a balance perspective.  What matters is that there is only a handful of rings that are consistently viable and the rest are heavily outclassed.

    Gear is like that too to a degree.  It would be better if there were more tradeoffs/hard decisions to be made.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:07 pm

    RoFaP is waaaay too powerful IMO, it's just like a bunch of free levels. I think rings should be small accessories to someone's playstyle (hornet, leo, cloranthy) and not just your build is a lot better always. Not only do I hope the internal ring balance is better in DaS2 (as in, how the rings are balanced against eachother) but I also hope they're less powerful overall (with the most powerful rings in mind, some things like cloranthy would need a buff).
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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by PhlyingDutchman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:16 pm

    SlintEastwood wrote:RoFaP is waaaay too powerful IMO, it's just like a bunch of free levels. I think rings should be small accessories to someone's playstyle (hornet, leo, cloranthy) and not just your build is a lot better always. Not only do I hope the internal ring balance is better in DaS2 (as in, how the rings are balanced against eachother) but I also hope they're less powerful overall (with the most powerful rings in mind, some things like cloranthy would need a buff).
    I'm curious: why do you want rings to be less powerful overall? Personally, I like the possibility of extremes, as long as they are balanced with appropriate opportunity costs, since it adds more variety to the playstyles we can use. If they don't tangibly affect gameplay, why even bother?
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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Aigaios on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:24 pm

    PhlyingDutchman wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:RoFaP is waaaay too powerful IMO, it's just like a bunch of free levels. I think rings should be small accessories to someone's playstyle (hornet, leo, cloranthy) and not just your build is a lot better always. Not only do I hope the internal ring balance is better in DaS2 (as in, how the rings are balanced against eachother) but I also hope they're less powerful overall (with the most powerful rings in mind, some things like cloranthy would need a buff).
    I'm curious: why do you want rings to be less powerful overall? Personally, I like the possibility of extremes, as long as they are balanced with appropriate opportunity costs, since it adds more variety to the playstyles we can use. If they don't tangibly affect gameplay, why even bother?
    The fact that with the use of two rings which is Havel's Ring and RoFaP at a high enough Endurance level even at SL 125 I can fast roll in full black iron amour with a shield, a claymore and a rapier still being able to do a good amount of damage and have a bonus of 20% to my HP and stamina is not something that adds variety to the play styles we can use IMO.

    While I respect your opinion, unlike you I think that it is something that limits our play styles. In Dark Souls you have four different main rolls which separate into the fast roll, the medium roll, the fat roll and the ninja flip however because I can have full heavy armour and still fast roll I never really need to experience any of the other roll types and I can do so without sacrifice to anything. Sure I am using two ring slots or one if you are only using RoFaP but what else would I use them for? If those two rings as said were not so powerful than people would have to use the medium roll or even the fat roll more which in my opinion would add flavor to a lot of aspects of Dark Souls.

    [This is not a rant and I am not hating on RoFaP or any other ring I am just trying to make a point that were many things in the game get a lot of hate by people this does not.]


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by PhlyingDutchman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:20 pm

    Aigaios wrote:
    PhlyingDutchman wrote:
    SlintEastwood wrote:RoFaP is waaaay too powerful IMO, it's just like a bunch of free levels. I think rings should be small accessories to someone's playstyle (hornet, leo, cloranthy) and not just your build is a lot better always. Not only do I hope the internal ring balance is better in DaS2 (as in, how the rings are balanced against eachother) but I also hope they're less powerful overall (with the most powerful rings in mind, some things like cloranthy would need a buff).
    I'm curious: why do you want rings to be less powerful overall? Personally, I like the possibility of extremes, as long as they are balanced with appropriate opportunity costs, since it adds more variety to the playstyles we can use. If they don't tangibly affect gameplay, why even bother?
    The fact that with the use of two rings which is Havel's Ring and RoFaP at a high enough Endurance level even at SL 125 I can fast roll in full black iron amour with a shield, a claymore and a rapier still being able to do a good amount of damage and have a bonus of 20% to my HP and stamina is not something that adds variety to the play styles we can use IMO.

    While I respect your opinion, unlike you I think that it is something that limits our play styles. In Dark Souls you have four different main rolls which separate into the fast roll, the medium roll, the fat roll and the ninja flip however because I can have full heavy armour and still fast roll I never really need to experience any of the other roll types and I can do so without sacrifice to anything. Sure I am using two ring slots or one if you are only using RoFaP but what else would I use them for? If those two rings as said were not so powerful than people would have to use the medium roll or even the fat roll more which in my opinion would add flavor to a lot of aspects of Dark Souls.

    [This is not a rant and I am not hating on RoFaP or any other ring I am just trying to make a point that were many things in the game get a lot of hate by people this does not.]
    I see your point, and agree with you that RoFaP works against variety in Dark Souls. However, I think the reason it does so is because it is so much better in comparison to the other rings, not just because it is powerful on its own. This is a relative vs. absolute value thing, and I'd rather see the weak rings get a boost than the good ones get nerfed. Raising the opportunity cost of passing on other good rings when you are choosing RoFaP also solves the problem and drives variety. To be fair, you'd have to really boost a lot of rings to match RoFaP's benefits, so probably a mixed approach is best like the aformentioned Juutas Plan, which on the whole makes a bunch of the throwaway rings much more worthwhile.
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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:23 pm

    And another thing to mention, is that you can't tell if someone is using the RoFaP or Havels, you can tell with the dwgr, hornet, and wolf. And you can't really complain if you don't know whether they have it equipped. People complain about the masks, but not the RoFaP despite the masks giving much smaller benefits.

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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:28 pm

    Personally, I think it is more productive to figure out ways to overcome these "cheap" items/tactics. Sure, we can dissect everything do death and never come to a concensus. But, that doesn't really get us anywhere. Instead, we could come up with powerful builds (or build ideas) that don't have the FaP but can be just as viable.

    Also, there is only 1 thing that limits play style - and that is the player. You set your own rules and expectations. Your play style is secondary to that.


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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Werdax on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:38 am

    Like every other ring (although I still dislike hornet ring), I don't consider RoFaP cheap. I wholeheartedly agree that it is widely used, and there is close to no reason not to use it, other then the fact that it pick up a ring slot which could have been spent otherwise. The reason I don't consider it cheap, is because it is so average, that I expect other players to wear it as I fight them, unless I am shown clear evidence that they are not using it currently.
    Everybody uses it, so it's only obvious that nobody actually complain about it. I admit, I use it on almost ALL of my characters. I do see your point OP. If I am being asked why I use the ring, I reply with "I got no reason NOT to use it. The other ring slot, I can switch between rings." So yeah, I agree that it might prevent people from being a bit creative at times, but it has no less opened op a lot of doors for me, in terms of making builds, with said stat boosts.

    On the matter of anything being cheap. I want to say katana's a cheap due to their fast swing speed, mobility, stamina cost and decent poise break, but thats only because katana's are so common. They are not cheap, they are just so widely used that they seem more efficient then any other weapon in the game, which they obviously are not. Same goes for the rings.
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    Re: No hate for the RoFaP

    Post by Hawkins172 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:53 am

    i don't see any problem with the FaP ring nor do i have any problem with anything but hacking. i think anything is fair as long as anyone can do it. with the exception of hacking

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