A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

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    Back Lot Basher
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    A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:09 pm

    I hope I'm asking this question correctly; if a person wants to go through the game multiple times, but still remain at a low enough level to get some summoning in while doing NG+ and beyond, where is a good level to stop?  Obviously it would be tough to find a range to get help at both the Gargoyles AND the Kings, but since the lower level bosses aren't too hard, I'm assuming you would want to hit a sweet spot for O&S and some of the endgame bosses.

    Second question, for anyone who has gone deep into NG+, but stayed at a moderately low level, what type of weapons or builds did you use?  Are elemental weapons a good investment, so that most stats can go into vitality?
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by SadPanda on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:10 pm

    Back Lot Basher wrote:I hope I'm asking this question correctly; if a person wants to go through the game multiple times, but still remain at a low enough level to get some summoning in while doing NG+ and beyond, where is a good level to stop?  Obviously it would be tough to find a range to get help at both the Gargoyles AND the Kings, but since the lower level bosses aren't too hard, I'm assuming you would want to hit a sweet spot for O&S and some of the endgame bosses.

    Second question, for anyone who has gone deep into NG+, but stayed at a moderately low level, what type of weapons or builds did you use?  Are elemental weapons a good investment, so that most stats can go into vitality?
    If you're staying at low SL and going into NG+, VIT is worse than resistance. And since elementals will outdamage any other version of a weapon at a low SL, you're better off getting around 16 strength and 14 dexterity, that way you can utilize many weapons. Expecting helpful co-op in NG+ is like waiting by the chimney for Santa.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:28 pm

    SadPanda wrote:If you're staying at low SL and going into NG+, VIT is worse than resistance. And since elementals will outdamage any other version of a weapon at a low SL, you're better off getting around 16 strength and 14 dexterity, that way you can utilize many weapons. Expecting helpful co-op in NG+ is like waiting by the chimney for Santa.

    How so?  I would think that you'd want some Vit to avoid getting one shotted in boss fights.  What I had in mind was aiming for level 55 (more of a mid-level rather than low level), and taking Str and Dex to the levels you mentioned, getting a single attunement slot, then enough End to fast roll with my loadout, and putting the rest in Vit.

    Or are you saying that the NG+ bosses (and beyond) pack so much punch that avoiding hits is the only way to survive?
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Isirith on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:32 pm

    I find SL 99 to be pretty busy.
    In the majority of areas especially end game areas.



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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by hey its andres on Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:04 pm

    I actually get a lot of action at SL ~200. Also if you have the dlc than sorcery can work wonders. If you can get a tin darkmoon catalyst and sunlight blade then you can just steam roll through until NG+7 (I've done it). If you want to stay as low as possible try to look for different buffs. GMW only requires 15 intelligence and adds over 100 magic damage.

    The thing about vitality is only true if you go through the common enemies unscathed. Obviously, most bosses will one shot you, but most enemies should take a few NGs depending on your vitality and armor.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:01 pm

    I found that by starting warrior and instantly pumping SL's into endurance, I could grab Havel's Ring (Master Key as my starting item) and the Stone Knight Set (saved up for the Crest of Artorias) pretty early with minimal encumbrance and ended up facerolling almost every boss I met in NG.

    I pumped enough points into strength to wield the Stone Greatshield and then brought my endurance to 40. After that, I put points straight into strength (you can put them into whatever offensive stat that matches your choice of weapon). With so much stamina and the Stone Greatshield, I could straight up out-hit the capra demon on my first try.

    When I got to Sen's Fortress, I grabbed the Man-Serpent Greatsword from the Man-Serpents, which when upgraded scales beautifully with strength (hence me pouring SL's into strength). I could also buy steel armor from the crestfallen merchant for a high-physical-protection-low-weight option. Plus, of course, the stoneplate rings.

    I reached 40 endurance and 40 strength by level 59, and that was plenty to beat the game. I didn't even level vitality until NG+. I found that putting points into making your equipment stronger was far more effective at early levels than increasing your survivability directly. Besides, upgrading your resistances (via armor or otherwise) means you don't take damage in the first place, making estus flasks more efficient than upgrading vitality.

    Some things to be careful about with this build are:

    1. Avoidance-based bosses. This build puts a lot of attention onto tanking enemies attacks, but some enemies are significantly easier to avoid than to tank. However, the points put into offense and the high equip-load allows you to equip a wide range of physical and magical protection without much of a hit to your encumbrance.

    2. The man-serpent greatsowrd (should you choose to use it) is slower than smaller weapons (obviously, since it's a greatsword) putting greater focus on having high poise to prevent an enemy from canceling you mid-swing and/or timing your attacks very carefully and being sure of your opportunities to strike. Obviously, I had trouble with enemies that gave small, but frequent windows of attack (dang you Artorias!!!).


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Green__Eagle on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:47 am

    This is a general observation about vitality and I have no proof: It seems to me that most damage you incur to your vitality is "percentage-based" rather than X amount. So a drop from a high ledge may take 50% of your vitality rather than 20 damage. And, of course, the more your health bar drops the more estus flasks you need to regain 100% health.

    When I'm doing low soul level runs I never put stats into vitality. 16 strength, 14 dexterity and hope to get the Gargoyle Halberd. Fire or Lightning upgrade path. For me, fire is easier. Don't use chaos. Armor choices are key to help reduce damage.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:51 am

    Green__Eagle wrote:This is a general observation about vitality and I have no proof: It seems to me that most damage you incur to your vitality is "percentage-based" rather than X amount. So a drop from a high ledge may take 50% of your vitality rather than 20 damage. And, of course, the more your health bar drops the more estus flasks you need to regain 100% health.
    That's true green it is percentage based with fall damage.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by SadPanda on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:40 am

    Yes. They'll be geared with a standard lightning spear, full havel's, and a +5 greatshield.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:49 am

    Fall damage is percentage based, but as far as I know all other damage is not. Regardless, vitality, in my opinion, is a secondary stat.

    Fire damage is good all around, but some enemies and bosses are resistant to it and weak to magic/lightning, whereas some are resistant to lightning or magic. Generally you want to use different weapons depending on the boss or the enemy. I tend to favor physical damage overall, since I can pour souls into upgrades without worrying about my enemy's resistances, but if you're willing to spend some time farming without leveling, you can always just get your favorite weapon in all of the major upgrade paths (magic, fire, and lightning).


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by hey its andres on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:41 pm

    Depending on your build, resins may become your best friend


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:16 pm

    So, assuming you were going to take a build to a sweet-spot level of say, 50ish, is the general consensus that the best approach is: 16 Str, 14 Dex (then elemental weapons), then everything else into End and Vit (with the emphasis on End)?

    I was thinking that, if you did this, rolled the game a few times, people you summon at mid and late game would get the shock of their life when they realize how hard they're being hit.
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:46 pm

    Nah 45 dex and a bandit's knife with a pyro glove is the way to go. 2h an +15 uchi with lighting resin for fire bosses. done


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:47 pm

    Looks like everyone has their own idea of how to do it.

    I suggest you might play the game with the idea that you're wanting to level up as little as possible. Go through with a plan of attack, meaning you've got your next 100 or so soul levels planned out just in case, with the idea that you hopefully wouldn't use any of them. Every boss and area you encounter, you do your best at the level you're at. If you fail a set number of times (maybe 3?), you can decide: Level or No Level. Maybe level up twice, just to get a real effect from it, and then tackle the boss again. Do this throughout the whole game, basically forcing yourself to use as few level-ups as possible until you get to NG+ and beyond. Then, you know that you have only the levels you need to defeat the bosses.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:55 pm

    dalsio wrote:Looks like everyone has their own idea of how to do it.

    I suggest you might play the game with the idea that you're wanting to level up as little as possible. Go through with a plan of attack, meaning you've got your next 100 or so soul levels planned out just in case, with the idea that you hopefully wouldn't use any of them. Every boss and area you encounter, you do your best at the level you're at. If you fail a set number of times (maybe 3?), you can decide: Level or No Level. Maybe level up twice, just to get a real effect from it, and then tackle the boss again. Do this throughout the whole game, basically forcing yourself to use as few level-ups as possible until you get to NG+ and beyond. Then, you know that you have only the levels you need to defeat the bosses.
    That actually sounds like a fantastic idea.  Rolling the game over, the first thing I want to do is get my stats up to 12 dex from 9, and leave strength for now.  I have a Balder and a Heater upgraded, and I've been prepping a bunch of lower level elemental weapons like the Shortbow, Estoc, Rapier, Longsword, Lightning Spear, and Bandit Knife.  My End is currently 11, and after some testing, it looks like 15 would give me enough to fast roll with a decent load-out.  I'll probably put on the RoFaP at endgame as well.
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:34 pm

    Remember that RoFaP boosts your load by 20%, so you've got 2.75 weight to spare. That might be enough for a bit extra damage here or there. And remember to plan for more levels than you think you'll need, just in case. Good luck, and may the Sun be with you!


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:49 pm

    At least the souls awarded in NG+ goes up, so adding a level here or there as needed shouldn't be too hard.  I can see myself wanting an extra attunement slot as well, for more pyro.  I thought about seeing if any of the support miracles like Magic Barrier and TWOP might be useful, but it seems like a lot of stats for situational miracles.
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:57 pm

    You might invest in a lot of rings of sacrifice. If you reach a boss you can't for the life of you defeat, you can wear that, touch your bloodstain, and die to the boss to get the souls stuck in their fog door.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:58 pm

    dalsio wrote:You might invest in a lot of rings of sacrifice. If you reach a boss you can't for the life of you defeat, you can wear that, touch your bloodstain, and die to the boss to get the souls stuck in their fog door.
    I don't follow...can you elaborate?
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:47 pm

    So let's say you've got some souls. Maybe you have a lot of them, but because you don't want to level yet, you go into the next boss fight with them anyway. Let's say you get your butt kicked mid-way through the fight and you die. Let's say this happens a few times (each time you touch your bloodstain to keep your souls and humanity) and you want to level up. Well, now all those souls are where you died and they would go a long way towards your leveling, but they're in with the boss.

    Normally you could just run to them, touch the stain, and run back to the bonfire. But, with your bloodstain behind the fog door, this makes returning (though IDK if you can homeward bone out of a boss fight?) impossible. Thus, before the fight, wear a ring of sacrifice, go through the fog door, touch your bloodstain, and then die to the boss. Viola! You've got your souls back, AND you're back at the bonfire.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:55 pm

    Ah, okay, I see what you're saying.  I do believe I have homeward boned out of a boss fight...in fact I did this just yesterday against Kalameet.  Ran in for the slab, then boned out.
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:59 pm

    Did you do it before he had a fog door, or after? Cause I could have sworn that you can't Boneward from inside a fog door. Maybe I'm crazy.


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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:33 pm

    No, I did it after going through the Fog Door.  His health bar came up and I could see him striding toward me from the far side.  I ran for the slab and then boned.
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    Re: A couple of questions about NG+ and beyond

    Post by dalsio on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:39 pm

    Nice. I'll have to find a use for that next boss I get.


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