Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

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    Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:55 pm

    I'm tending to see a lot of topics on the forums, Youtube, and other websites built around tournaments. While this isn't nessecarily bad, actually very fun from my past expirience, Dark Souls is not a tournament fighter.

    A thing I see becoming a problem are things disallowed in games like Street Fighter or UMvC3. It's becoming more apparent due to there being things you cannot use in the information section of a tournament. Although it's seperate from PvP, it's regulating it and labeling some things as frowned upon, cheap, or bad.

    Another thing is it becoming an ultra-competetive game due to Dark Souls' cult following of very skilled duelists. While this isn't bad, it makes the game more of a chore than anything. There are games like Street Fighter where most people are very skilled and play to win, but it's still enjoyable, but it's because it is meant to be a competetive tournament fighter.

    The last thing that concerns me is slowing the growth of Souls' games in general. If you look up "dark souls PvP" on Youtube, a majority of the videos are against gankers in PvP designated areas, or set-up duels in the like. Rarely do I see what PvP was meant to be, a tense cat and mouse game in the unique terrains and designs of Dark Souls. I'm so sick of seeing the Burg courtyard, Oolacile entrance, and the Forest. So personally, if I do even invade anymore, it's at a mid SL in an unconventional area for PvP. Bringing me to why this is harmful, in the fact it could frighten newcomers to the series. From what they've seen in videos, a good 80% of PvP is invading a PvP hotspot and fighting two or three overleveled people. Sadly, this is the case nowadays for PvP, and naturally, people want to win. So if you're a newcomer to Souls, would you take risk invading and get ganked, or get easy kills with a buddy in the forest?

    While tournaments are fun and challenging, I feel having an oversaturation of set-up PvP is harming Dark Souls. Just my opinion on the matter.

    No offense to people who host/participate in FC's and tournaments.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Lord of Ash on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:17 pm

    I share a similar view alot of tourney players have a duel mentality which makes the hate when i fight forest style in pvp they think im dirty cause I dont duel just me opnion


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:40 pm

    Yeah, I get what you mean and agree. Low-level play has gotten REALLY messed up; I'm really concerned for new players.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Lord of Ash on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:46 am

    yea the areas for pvp are limited when dks first came out you were scared you werent going to make it to  the boss because of spirits


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Valanor on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:06 am

    I see what you mean.I've only done pvp in the most populated areas so far because I've heard so much about them.Except the forest.I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible since I thought that it wasn't fun pvping there.I'm more the type of person who likes to try out the "cool style" things like my Artorias cosplay build which I think I will start soon.I will also need a lot of pvp training with somebody at some point since it won't hurt having learned the tricks at least one time.

    Edit: I think I'm also kinda new playerish since I've only played Dark Souls for about 200 hours and still have problems with pvp.


    Last edited by Valanor on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:20 am

    it might not be intended to function as one, but the fact is that it does( howver poorly), and so is in this context a tournament fighter. (a fighter played in tournaments is the literal definition of tournament fighter)

    If you're sich of duels, don;t duel. problem solved. I do random invasions most of the time.

    competitive play is rarely, if ever, bad for a game. in fact it extends the life of the game, assuming people can reign in their tendancy to impose absurd and hypocritical rules about whats "cheap/" by creating the knowledge and tactics you see here on this website and leaving more and more to explore and learn about the game, giving people more things to accomplish, in doing so it both keeps old pljayers coming back to master something new and attracts new players looking for things to master.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Dr__Awkward on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:40 am

    It's just people trying to keep the game interesting. after 10+ playthroughs, some even more. and thousands of hours logged into characters, the terrain and playthrough gets boring. Until we are hit with more DLC's and Dark Souls 2, people are going to do whatever they can to keep the game fresh.

    So I 100% support tournaments and duels. Puts a competitive edge on the game. Once we get DS2 you will be returned with random invasions and darkwraiths that are there just to f up your day.

    Its the dark souls circle of life.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by SadPanda on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:53 am

    Yeah, but now the general idea of "pro" in Dark Souls is only playing unlocked, menu switching constantly, dual wielding even when it's useless, **** stupid things like "le epic burrito combos xD" or hornet ring switches with parries. I'm not saying that stuff isn't hard, but it just makes more annoying people to fight.

    I don't consider myself a pro, but since I win a good 95% of my PvP matches I would consider myself pretty good. But I rarely ever play unlocked fully or dual wield. And hornet ring switches are still with a hornet ring...

    What's so wrong with the conventional fighting that's not seen in fighting games anymore? I hate playing SSBM with other people because they always go Fox 4 stock on Final Destination and WD the whole time. And that to me, is what's happening, and very soon, will happen to Dark Souls.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:34 pm

    Unlocked has its place (I'd be impressed if someone could go 100% unlocked with every weapon and do better than locking it occasionally though).  Menu-swaps are a basic method to avoid equip weight switching your roll tier.  I don't see the issue with either of these tactics.  Even hornet ring swap is totally legit, though they could patch it out if they cared.

    I care a lot more about hacking, which is really the only truly ruinous presence in souls that is player-controlled (net code being the other major issue in my book).


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Moalover on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:26 am

    Honestly i think one of the great things that DkS have is that it's so open, people get to do things how they want to do it:

    - you want organized pvp? you have courtyard, oolacile township, kiln (forget arena, that was a big fail).

    - you want honor duels? you got moonpit.

    - you want crazy no rules pvp? you go forest.

    - you want hunter/prey pvp? you got every other place (i still get nice old fashioned invasion everywhere else: sen's, sewers, undead burg, parish, etc etc).

    And to me, what you call annoying people to fight i call good pvp'ers, cuz that's what they do, so relax and play the game as you like cuz you have a lot of options winking .


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:39 am

    To be honest I'm hardly surprised at the emergence of tournaments now. Souls have always had two types of pvp at their heart- duels and invasion. I think tournaments are just a natural extension of the ever present duel scene.

    Both have their place, both are intended- why else would FROM put the red soap in the game? I think saying invasions are the 'true' form of pvp is false- they're both welcome and both are still popular in their own way, though the popularity of true invasions has reduced.

    Duelling techniques I don't have too much problem with, but stuff like exploits becoming part of pvp meta and labelled as 'skill' or badly made mechanics that allow ridiculous stuff like menu swapping is when it starts to go too far. I presume FROM will do away with stuff like that to try and reinforce the gritty realism of souls combat in II, and if they don't ill be extremely disappointed.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:36 pm

    SadPanda wrote:Yeah, but now the general idea of "pro" in Dark Souls is only playing unlocked, menu switching constantly, dual wielding even when it's useless, **** stupid things like "le epic burrito combos xD" or hornet ring switches with parries. I'm not saying that stuff isn't hard, but it just makes more annoying people to fight.

    I don't consider myself a pro, but since I win a good 95% of my PvP matches I would consider myself pretty good. But I rarely ever play unlocked fully or dual wield. And hornet ring switches are still with a hornet ring...

    What's so wrong with the conventional fighting that's not seen in fighting games anymore? I hate playing SSBM with other people because they always go Fox 4 stock on Final Destination and WD the whole time. And that to me, is what's happening, and very soon, will happen to Dark Souls.
    you don't seem to play compeitive games much. I can say from experience, that there is almost always a "best" setup/deck/character/ect and there are almost always people who don't use it and still beat it (to win tournaments, i might add.)

    Just a couple years ago cawblade (mtg) was hands down the best standard deck and it ended up loosing the championship to a blue white artifact deck.

    Preference and playstyle are important factors, and playing however is natural for you in a competition is often more important than using the "best" of anything.



    @serious, exploits are always part of every pvp experience, when and if the emerge. welcome to competitive play. it happens irl too, fyi. knowing and exploiting the rules of the game to accomplish things not otherwise possible/allowed is not only totally fair but a natural extension of a competitive mindset.


    How, and why, would they stop menu swapping?

    the cambat isn't realistic, it mearly impliments real concepts. if they were going for realism, there would be no magic, and you wouldn't be able to get in or out of plate armor without help. Also, for stuff like rings, swapping those in a hurry is doable even irl, if you've organised and practiced at doing so.



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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by roanispe on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:50 pm

    The level of depth and balance a game has to be considered competitive varies between person to person-- there are Rock-Paper-Scissor tournaments. Remember, failing equal viability between choices people generally just choose from the set of most viable options which will always give a game an artificial 'balance'. If this limited set is considered fun and varied enough for the people who play, what's wrong with them considering competitive? If anything, the way the Fight Clubs and tournaments are setup make it rather easy to avoid the crowd if one found the viewpoint distasteful.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:03 pm

    Yeah I get that exploits become part of the game, but that doesn't mean they should be left in. Neither false dead angle nor toggle glitch are particularly fitting in the boundaries of the games emphasis on realistic combat, so they should get removed fore next game, simple as that.

    Forum my objection is actually more balance based for menu swapping. The whole point of equip weight and slots is to make you limit what a set up can do. Being able to swap in .3 seconds mid battle is IMO ridiculously unbalanced and wrecks the purpose of equip slots, it's basically an exploit in of itself similar to the two listed above as it makes use of flawed mechanics (though people don't complain about it as its not as obnoxious as seeing someone hit you through your shield)

    I mean I don't think that we should have to swap weapons at bonfires or anything, but at least make the weapon change a good 2-3 seconds so it's at least punishable or stupid/impossibleto pull off mid combat.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:29 pm

    Something to consider is the concept of having an Anti-Meta set up.  Usually it only works for a short time before people adapt, but you can design a setup entirely around defeating the best build in the meta while it might be useless against all others.  But, you'll see success for a time since so many will be using the "best" setup.
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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Leet on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:04 pm

    I don't see a way for them to come up with a menu that is hard to switch to mid-battle, while still making it easily accessible. It's just a menu. It helps it every aspect of the game. If you're in the middle of a boss battle and for example, a slow weapon isn't working, you can switch to a faster one. I suppose you can always say "Well, if they make it harder to menu swap, you'll simply die and learn from your mistake."

    But seriously, it's just a menu. People are gonna figure out ways to do things to make them more of a problem to play against. That's just how it works. Kind of like on Injustice. There's like a "glitch" or "exploit" where you can do crazy long combos that seem to never end and there's little to nothing you can do about it. Combos were meant to be put in the game, but people found a way to take it to another level to make them more competitive in PvP. And there's nothing they can really do about it.

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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Paragon on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:03 pm

    My philosophy on Dark Souls is this: "Dark Souls is whatever you can get away with"
    (the quote is an affectionate parody of Andy Warhol's definition of Art)

    By this i mean If you are good enough at doing something in the game that affects how you play it, then it makes how you play Dark Souls unique to you.

    For instance, if a player was insanely good at using bow and arrows without locking on (meaning shooting from cross hair perspective) then for that player Dark Souls is partially an FPS.

    Another example, if a player is good at landing roll bs then for that player Dark Souls is a game of agility. Likewise if a player is good at parrying then Dark Souls is a mind game. If a player is good at fighting unlocked then Dark Souls is a hack and slash or a beat em up.

    So if a group of people are able to get together and create a tourney with clear rules and plenty of participants then for them Dark Souls is indeed a Tournament Fighter.

    Rather than thinking "What Dark Souls is/ is not?" one should have the mindset of "What can/ can not be done in Dark Souls?"


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:31 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Yeah I get that exploits become part of the game, but that doesn't mean they should be left in. Neither false dead angle nor toggle glitch are particularly fitting in the boundaries of the games emphasis on realistic combat, so they should get removed fore next game, simple as that.

    Forum my objection is actually more balance based for menu swapping. The whole point of equip weight and slots is to make you limit what a set up can do. Being able to swap in .3 seconds mid battle is IMO ridiculously unbalanced and wrecks the purpose of equip slots, it's basically an exploit in of itself similar to the two listed above as it makes use of flawed mechanics (though people don't complain about it as its not as obnoxious as seeing someone hit you through your shield)

    I mean I don't think that we should have to swap weapons at bonfires or anything, but at least make the weapon change a good 2-3 seconds so it's at least punishable or stupid/impossibleto pull off mid combat.
    but why? the gear is all stored in some imaginary alternate dimension anyways, you're not fitting a dgm in a backpack, so why should the same limits to actually physically getting the weapon apply to pulling it out of thin air?

    The point of equip slots is to set what you can do at the moment. In theory, its possible the only point in from limiting them is to avoid complicated switching cycles (like spells have atm,) its not as iff you can see the dgm on my back when I swap away, and really people are not likely to equip more than 2 weapons at a time anyways because of weight anyways.

    The point of weight is again, to limit what you can do ATM and to offset faster movement against better defences/offences for balance (which it doesn't do well.)


    I didn't mean this game, I meant every game. when I wrestle, i can "foul" 3 times and get dq'd on the 4th. in theory, this means I cannot slam someones head into the mat to disorient them to gain an advantage. In practice, this means I can slam their head into the mat 3 times per match.

    Looks are not a valid arguement against things like deadangleing. they're subjective for 1, for 2 the rules and physics of the world are whatever the devs say they are. if that includes "obnoxious" backwards attacks, so be it.

    On top of that, many of the attacks that do it couldn't be blocked from that angle irl anyways, the shield user would have to turn their shield and/or body towards the weapon to stop the attack (dgm/zweih/largeclub/claymore,greatscythe)

    From a gameplay standpoint however, shields and blocking need a major rework before I'd be ok with deadangles being gone, and not being able to menu swap would be condemning people to cheap trial and error approaches. one cannot cover every base with 2 weapons, so if the opponent (human or npc) is using attacks you're not set up to handle then you're just screwed and likely won't have an opportunity to fix it untill its killed you. that doesn't sound fun. its punishing you for things beyond your control, thats the same reason everybody hates the BOC.



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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:45 am

    Obviously I said the obnoxious thing as to why people don't mind menu swaps but go ahead and bring wrestling into it.

    The fact is based on what you said then you think blocking isn't at fault while I do. I'd say that of the weapons you listed there, the only one which should dead angle is the scythe as it clearly goes round the shield. The others hit the shield yet do damage.

    To me it's just an obvious fault of the blocking mechanics. As you said the fighting isnt literal, the looks aren't literal- hence why I think blocking should allow for a larger angle of blocking lets say 120-140 degrees about. IMO something as simple as that would stop the false dead angles. Thing is what a dead angle is has been twisted by this community. A dead angle should be something that is IMPOSSIBLE for the shield to reach with allowance for arm movement. As you see from the 'dead angles' you do with GS and UGS they obviously aren't at a dead angle- in fact they're nowhere near one.

    BOC? That has nothing to do with menu swapping, besides that boss also has ways you can do it without dying and it's kind enough to keep it at its previous state if you do die. BOC is more annoying than actually unfair, tbh.

    Anyways not being able to cover every base with 2 weapons? You know that is the entire point of equipment slots. You're not meant to be able to handle everything. It is something you do have controls over- you select your equipment. You choose what you think will get you through the level. the whole point of death is to punish approaches that are incorrect. I don't see why bad set ups can't be included in that list. You have a bad set up? You die and learn from the experience and then you approach it differently next time just like every other death in souls. Poor preparation for your encounters shouldn't be exempt from that souls learning process in my opinion.

    Having a bad set up is not any different from any other kind of death in souls- I don't think a game as unforgiving as souls should let you get away with bringing a knife to a gunfight.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:47 am

    Serious if they implement what you are suggesting in Dark Souls 2, I won't buy the game.  If I'm going to be brutally honest, I hope they never do something that essentially just kills you for something you couldn't have known unless you looked up online what you should bring to a fight before hand or had a friend tell you.  What I love about Dark Souls is being able to adapt, learn on the fly, and react to challenges.  If I just get killed when it isn't my fault, I'm not going to even bother playing such a crappy game.
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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:59 am

    Tolvo wrote:Serious if they implement what you are suggesting in Dark Souls 2, I won't buy the game.  If I'm going to be brutally honest, I hope they never do something that essentially just kills you for something you couldn't have known unless you looked up online what you should bring to a fight before hand or had a friend tell you.  What I love about Dark Souls is being able to adapt, learn on the fly, and react to challenges.  If I just get killed when it isn't my fault, I'm not going to even bother playing such a crappy game.
    To be honest it's not any different from getting killed by traps in the game like the slime in the depths, or repeatedly getting killed by the asylum demon not knowing you're supposed to run away. I don't see anything wrong with it to be honest, unless one of you explains why this is such a massive issue... I mean if you turn up to centipede demon or ceaseless discharge with a fire weapon and no back up and you'd get stomped. Don't tell me you'd quit the game because of that?

    To be honest the PvE aspect of this discussion is pretty moot though as we already know any weapon is fine for any boss to be honest- it's mainly the PvP aspect that you can go outside the purpose of equipment slots and specific equipment set ups


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:03 am

    When entering the room with the Asylum Demon, you can see the door leading to an escape.  You can spot the slimes on the ceiling before they fall, and hit them to get them to drop early.  You can spot every trap in game before hand.  You can pay attention and adapt, and figure things out.

    Walking into a boss room without any context and dying because the boss can only be hurt by lightning, when I had a fire weapon equipped, with a lightning weapon in my inventory I can't equip, is complete garbage.  It removes the idea of being perceptive, testing things out on the fly, and persisting against the odds.

    As I've mentioned before, I'm not against some changes.  Like Toggle Escape or Dead Angling going away, to be replaced with actual mechanics with similar functionalities since personally I see them as necessary.  But if they just remove them without a way to stop infinite stunlocks or defeat turtles with just melee weapons, I'm going to call the game what it is.  Inferior to the first Dark Souls.
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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:07 am

    Thing is you can change the weapon still- it's just made so you get punished for your ignorance as it takes time to change weapons. Is that really a bad thing? To be honest it's pretty obvious on souls when a weapon is not gonna be effective. If you rock up to a boss with a weapon they're obviously strong against then it's your own funeral- it's not the game's fault.

    I don't see how it takes away being perceptive- you attack the boss "no damage, lets try something else". You take a hit and have to heal because of your error in preparation to change your weapon. How is anything in there unfair or taking away from what souls is about?

    Come on, people are begging for things to make the game even more challenging- giving them some tougher love on going in blind with a dumb weapon choice is hardly an unfair way of doing it.


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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:11 am

    Okay I misunderstood your idea, I thought you meant you were going to totally disallow weapon swapping outside of designated places like a bonfire.  Making it take a bit more time, it would depend.  They have to make sure it feels like a real decisions, and not them just making a crappy UI.

    One thing I've always felt is that turtling is too effective...In PvP.  I'd actually love for them to reduce the stabilities of shields so you can block much less.  Especially against striking weapons, if we want to go dumb over realistic, a mace would wreak havoc on a shield.

    EDIT:  I meant to say in PvE, it's too effective in PvP also, but for PvE especially.
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    Re: Remember: Dark Souls is not a Tournament Fighter

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:17 am

    Yeah, I stated it would be catastrophic having equip changes in bonfire, but stuff like being able to swap things at the drop of a hat I reckon would be better if we get punished for it... I'm basically just being a masochist here- I want the game to own me when I first play it silly

    Turtling is pretty annoying, and stuff to break guards would be good. Having strike weapons move shields out the way would be good, but I also think the new forward R1 move should break guarding, so that you cant just hide behind your shield (isn't it going to be a guard break?). Though I like the idea of strike weapons, it would make sense for them to do that. In fact, that's sparked a thought in my head tbh. Each weapon damage type gets it's own special multiplier.

    Stabbing damage gets increased critical damage
    slashing gets higher bleed damage (maybe needs something else)
    Strike gets better poise and guard breaking (balanced to me as their movesets are slow and can't combo)

    On the PvE front I think they've reduced the blocking capability by making stamina regen halt after blocking, which is an interesting idea. Also reducing the stability of shields would be a good idea.. Never got why I could block attacks from giants with a medium sized shield silly


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