Video with interesting view on PvP

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:14 am

    I wasn't sure if I crossed the line already, or no, so I left it on the mod team to decide it for me. I'm a lazy bastard. big grin
    Sorry for the trouble Serious.

    Oh. EPIC FAIL! It seems I misunderstood you Fin. My bad.
    There were some people on GameFAQs claiming to have a MM save with 99 of these items, but you can't trust GameFAQs. winking

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Leet on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:20 am

    Will do, Serious.

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:27 am

    Some blessings are hacked, but not all.  It's impossible to tell the difference.

    I consider them a major design flaw we have to live with.  Healing, along with every other useful game mechanic, should come at a reasonable in-game price; IE you give something up to attain it.  In the case of humanity, you use a considerable amount of time to trigger it, but it's still a relative freebie.  Estus can be disabled, and healing spells take time.  Humanity and to a much greater extent blessings are jarring because they provide the equivalent of a costly spell at the cost of nothing but pre-fight tedium.  Tedium by design is not good design.

    The mule does alter balance, because it allows everyone who has it to use powerful options that cost boatloads of tedium (DB's, crystal weapons) compared to simply making them appear from thin air.  In practice this is a competitive rift, also mimic'd via save duplication etc.

    I didn't realize you could "back up" save data like so.  That's basically a mule equivalent.  Assuming it doesn't violate ToS (I'll check), I'll start using it.  I still have my SL10 bandit with nearly 2 million souls after all.  Maybe I can run around with crystal weapons too, and when they break just remake the character lulwut (no, I won't actually do that).


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:02 am

    I'm actually interested if save file backup violates ToS.

    Not that it would make any difference for me. My Dark Souls save file got corrupted four times and I lost one more when my PS3 died. That's ficve lost save files, each with at least four PvP ready characters. Can you imagine the time spent farming, grinding and PvEing?
    I will admit that I used BB glitch for the third save file, because I just didn't want to do everything again for the third time. Two of those lost save files were backed up on PS+, so I didn't have to start from nothing, AGAIN.
    Frankly. I am thankful for all the help I got when I lost my files and I'm glad I paid for PS+, because without it I would've stopped playing the game completely. That's why backing up save files can break ToS, or even developer's anus for all I care, but I'll still use it for as long as we don't have our save files automatically backed up on cloud somewhere, or have a option to restore them in case our console dies, or it gets corrupted thanks to unfortunate power outage.

    That said, I'm curious to see if it indeed breaks any ToS, or other agreements, or terms.

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Cronotis on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:15 am

    If you're muching DBs in pvp it's basically cheating.  If you obtained them through normal pve then you're either going to be reluctant to use them at all, or you're going to burn through them real quick.  Otherwise there's been hacking or duping involved.  Either way you're clearly circumventing in-game mechanics in order to gain an advantage that the average player doesn't have.

    That said DBs really aren't that big of a deal.  Humanity will be just as effective if you put a little more effort into spacing.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:22 am

    Sentiel wrote:I'm actually interested if save file backup violates ToS.

    Not that it would make any difference for me. My Dark Souls save file got corrupted four times and I lost one more when my PS3 died. That's ficve lost save files, each with at least four PvP ready characters. Can you imagine the time spent farming, grinding and PvEing?
    I will admit that I used BB glitch for the third save file, because I just didn't want to do everything again for the third time. Two of those lost save files were backed up on PS+, so I didn't have to start from nothing, AGAIN.
    Frankly. I am thankful for all the help I got when I lost my files and I'm glad I paid for PS+, because without it I would've stopped playing the game completely. That's why backing up save files can break ToS, or even developer's anus for all I care, but I'll still use it for as long as we don't have our save files automatically backed up on cloud somewhere, or have a option to restore them in case our console dies, or it gets corrupted thanks to unfortunate power outage.

    That said, I'm curious to see if it indeed breaks any ToS, or other agreements, or terms.
    I've had my PS3 replaced 3 times.. I've also incidentally completed motorstorm 3 times over as a result silly

    But I agree, not have saves backed up sucks a lot. Because of that I lost 600 hours of Dark souls time, along with completed files of countless other games like GTAIV, MGSIV, Oblivion, dragons dogma, borderlands to name a few ones which were significant time sinks. It sucked that I lost all the game time, bit in the same way I'm glad it gave me a clean slate to work off... kinda


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:29 pm

    I am subbed to foxeo in the hopes that it would open my mind, it has done just that but he does whine a bit and I disagree withvhim.a lot but I tryvto understand the perspective he's coming from.
    but this video is just nonsense, most of it is whining and yrs its true that its a pain when someone spams divines but isn't that the same as him healing during an invasion?


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:09 pm

    Kiva the wanderer wrote:I am subbed to foxeo in the hopes that it would open my mind, it has done just that but he does whine a bit and I disagree withvhim.a lot but I tryvto understand the perspective he's coming from.
    but this video is just nonsense, most of it is whining and yrs its true that its a pain when someone spams divines but isn't that the same as him healing during an invasion?
    Host using estus is the way the game was designed, that's what lloyd's talismans are for. Both can use humanities. Using divine blessings you got legitimately is annoying but part of the game, that's why they're limited. Using divine blessings that were edited in is straight up cheating.

    You can't say it's OK because the host has estus which is faster than humanity, as invasions were always meant to be asymmetric. Hosts get faster healing (if not lloyd's'd), invaders can use mobs in the area. Hosts get phantoms; in the forest or vs gravelords you can get multiple invaders. Some invaders invade up, some invade down.

    Funnily enough, I was talking to a livestreamer yesterday who was invading anor londo at SL50 with maxed gear and popping edited in DBs. Surprisingly I got him to change his mind and he stopped using them.
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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:56 am

    BrotherBob wrote:@Forum Pirate: I was under the impression that the purpose of a forum was to discuss all matters related to DS, which would include thoughts and feelings. Also, I wonder how you determined that over 50% of players who use DBs in PvP obtained them legitimately. To clarify, I am considering gifted DBs in quantities larger than 10 to be illegitimate. However, if gifted DBs are considered legitimate, then I would actually agree very strongly on that point.

    @StiffNipples: Your mention of farmable items made me think of DeS. I never played it but have watched many hours of gameplay. I can't imagine what PvP would have been like in DeS, where it's not a matter of skill, but a matter of how much grass you have.
    your perspective yes, your thoughts, yes. these can benifit the discussion/people and be backed logically.

    your feelings, not so much. feelings (outside personal relationships) are entirely irrelivant. feelings are unconstrained by logic and so not helpful when discussing a topic.

    I did not sat more than 50% of your db's are legitimate, I said, based on the logic you presented, there is a better than a 50% chance the db's are fair. I seriously doubt that 505 of dns are legit, but thats not the point. you only presented 3 options, and of those 3 options, 2 involve legit dbs. 2/3 = 66.66%


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:59 am

    TooLeet wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:
    TooLeet wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:False premise number 1, divine blessings are hacked.

    he addresses that to an extent. I have hundreds of divine blessings, the first 99 were given to me, and before the mega mule was widely known (we're talking first 5 months or so) and the rest are what i've gotten myself since. i don't have a computer, so i couldn't even hack them if i wanted to.
    I'm guessing your addressing MM because more hackers have appeared since it's release. The only things you don't get with it are divine blessings and mushrooms. I don't know if that's what you meant but i figured i'd just address that.


    On a side note, good fine Serious. I thought it was a pretty good video and he made good points. The only thing that troubled me was, the entire time he was talking about hacked DB's. I thought in my head, "yeah, that makes sense" until he popped one himself. There is no justification for that. All he did was contradict himself after he did that. I stopped watching after that.
    Of course I'm talking about the mega mule. I explicitly stated I was talking about the mega mule. I was saying that I have hundreds of db's, and did not use the mega mule to get them, nor did my inital giftwraith use the mega mule to get theirs. The assertion that I hacked based on my use of a db alone is hilariouly presumptious.

    I'm aware that there are more hackers since it became popular. he's still on the 360, in the forest, complaining about hackers. see previous metaphor.
    It is clear to me you were talking about the MM. The only thing is (which i have already said) you don't not get a single divine blessing, or mushroom with the MM. If you run into someone with a MM, they're not gonna be popping DB's, unless given to them or they are hackers. 


    So bringing up mega mule in a conversation about divine blessings is irrelevant. 

    a) the mega mule did origionally give you db's and mushrooms, which was why i mentioned it.

    b) the very fact that you're hacking items means you have access to the db's/mushrooms should you want them enough to learn how to get them.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Leet on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:19 am

    I've only seen Dom's MM, but it states in the description no db's or mushrooms. As far as i know, his is the original. All the other ones might be the same file with their name on it. Why would he one day develop morals and take dbs/ems out of the file? And like i said before, on ps3 you gotta know a thing or two to do those kinds of things. Can't say much because i'll get edited.

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:22 am

    but you can learn.

    even so, his origionally had the items. he changed it.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Leet on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:01 am

    I believe you but why? I wonder what made him think "man, people shouldn't have all these, even though i modded a save file."

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by FinPeku on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:10 am

    I have the earlier version of MM and there is no dbs or mushrooms. But i know a lot of people have started modding their saves and that's where all the dbs, mushrooms and glowing hair suddenly came from.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Leet on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:37 am

    FinPeku wrote:I have the earlier version of MM and there is no dbs or mushrooms. But i know a lot of people have started modding their saves and that's where all the dbs, mushrooms and glowing hair suddenly came from.

    Yeah, i don't know where everybody got that from. I've never heard of a MM file with dbs and mushrooms. And glowing hair is stupid. This isn't a freakin fashion contest.

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:51 am

    TooLeet wrote:Yeah, i don't know where everybody got that from. I've never heard of a MM file with dbs and mushrooms. And glowing hair is stupid. This isn't a freakin fashion contest.
    Untrue. I also think glowing hair is stupid, but I play fashion souls on the daily.

    Edit: And I haven't played that long, but I did hear in passing that an old version of MM had those things and they were removed. Whether it's true or not, let's not get too sidetracked.
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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Leet on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:09 pm

    ScottyDoesKnow wrote:
    TooLeet wrote:Yeah, i don't know where everybody got that from. I've never heard of a MM file with dbs and mushrooms. And glowing hair is stupid. This isn't a freakin fashion contest.
    Untrue. I also think glowing hair is stupid, but I play fashion souls on the daily.

    Edit: And I haven't played that long, but I did hear in passing that an old version of MM had those things and they were removed. Whether it's true or not, let's not get too sidetracked.
     
    Yeah, you heard that in this thread. And the OP had to do with modded/hacked Dbs and Ems. No one is getting side tracked.

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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:24 pm

    It was more about the guys opinion about healing items for me. Why would one form of healing be okay and another not?

    I mean it's not like someone pulls out a channeller trident in PvP and the other black crystals out because he probably didn't farm for it..

    I call double standards to be honest


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by BrotherBob on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:03 pm

    @Forum Pirate: OK, so here's what I originally wrote:
    BrotherBob wrote:I know it's presumptuous, but I assume that my opponent is "not legit" (not necessarily hacking) if they pop even one DB. My reason is that I find it unfathomable for anyone to want to use such a valuable and rare item, unless they have an unnatural surplus of it. Again, that's my perspective and it is presumptuous, but I feel that most people who would be willing to use up a DB in any case either have an illegitimate amount or just don't care.
    Essentially, I assume that a player who uses a DB during a PvP fight did not obtain their stash of DBs exclusively from their own game, but rather from a gifter or from modding their save. In itself, it would have been a feeling, but I did back it up with the logic that most players (who had a "legitimate" amount of DBs, i.e. up to 10 from each playthrough) would not use such a powerful and limited item. This is not necessarily a proof or a concept that applies to all players, but it is certainly something that applies to upwards of 90% of players. Whenever I have played a game concurrently with other people I know, I tend to ask if they've chosen to use the game's uber-powerful item (if there is one, of course), which is what led me to that conclusion. Of course, I am aware of the sampling bias. So, in sum, I'm just trying to say that it's not just a feeling, but rather a conclusion that I have reached.

    At this point, I'm pretty sure that I'm not exactly in-line with the purpose of the thread so I'll get back on track from here on.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:07 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    I mean it's not like someone pulls out a channeller trident in PvP and the other black crystals out because he probably didn't farm for it..

    I call double standards to be honest
    In my opinion, Serious, comparing a Channeller's Trident to a large amount of db's is kinda illogical. You only need 1 or 2 tridents, and within an hour (with my experience) I can get one; whereas with db's, you need to beat the game multiple times in order to get a amount suitable to PvP purposes.

    I base this statement on the first time I got 99 solid humanities. Within one day, I ran through maybe 30 solid humanities, due to my slightly above average skill. Considering my usage of humanity alongside my skill relative to the majority of players and my observed db usage, I'd say that most DB's would be illegitimate.
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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:55 pm

    It was more about the guys opinion about healing items for me. Why would one form of healing be okay and another not?
    Cost/balance issues.  DB and humanity don't require any stat or attunement investment and there is no way to stop someone from using them to the same extent as with estus.  In that regard, these healing items are unique.  A DB essentially is:

    1. An instant-cast great heal and status restore in one
    2. That requires no catalyst
    3. That requires absolutely no stat investment
    4. Is less finite in quantity in a given invasion

    This is, needless to say, an overcentralizing item.  If you don't ban it, the only rational course of action is to pack 99 of them and use them whenever it seems to improve victory chances.  The #1 issue with it is the large amounts of tedium typically associated with getting it in large numbers.

    Humanity is basically the same thing minus status restore and being slower.

    Imagine a consumable item that nearly instant-casts great heavy soul arrow, that is farmable with painstaking time investment.  Now picture people firing these off like crazy.  Every single argument in favor of divine blessings and humanities also applies to this hypothetical item.  I suspect as a concept it is repulsive to a good chunk of players, but it's the same thing.  And if it were in the game, it would be every bit as rational to use it.

    My main issue with these items is not what they do, but rather the TEDIUM required to use what is indisputably a strong option for every build in multiplayer, that trivializes other options that do the same thing.  In a decently designed game, tedium should not be a viable replacement for stat investment and build balance.  If everyone could access them freely (example: stamina grass, which is stupid but at least easy to come by), they wouldn't be as grating.  Otherwise, you need to put considerable time into getting these items, hours and hours of play time.  Or, you could cheat to get them, and nobody will ever know the difference.

    Tedious factors in a game are not good factors.  I feel the exact same way about crystal weapon upgrades: they're a stupid concept and directly reward tedium.  Johnny mule has 80 crystal claymores +5.  Too much time timmy spent 60 hours farming and has a good amount himself.  People who have beaten the game multiple times and have a +15 weapon or three?  Disadvantaged.  Pointlessly.

    That said, if a game makes a poor mistake to reward tedium, it's not really the player's fault for taking advantage.

    Considering my usage of humanity alongside my skill relative to the majority of players and my observed db usage, I'd say that most DB's would be illegitimate.
    If people are merely duplicating a save, that might not be the case.  Take my SL 10 character with 2+ million souls for example.  Let's say I go farming and grab a few slabs and a ton of chunks across a few hours, as well as farm out 99 hard humanity and trade into 30 divine blessings.

    It's not unfathomable that if I could "back up" such a save, and use it repeatedly, I could not only generate a ton of different builds but also re-make them when all my crystal weapons broke, repeatedly.  BB glitch is similar too.  What's "legit" then becomes a grey scale; if people aren't hacking, how does one realistically justify using dead angles and toggles on purpose but not other simple glitches?

    The end result is that Fox is wrong, and unfortunately DB spam is a built-in aspect of the game that one must find a way to use to be on equal footing, or accept being at a disadvantage.  I do the latter, though if I can start duping my own save I might at least dupe the 99 humanity lol.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:30 pm

    TooLeet wrote:
    ScottyDoesKnow wrote:Untrue. I also think glowing hair is stupid, but I play fashion souls on the daily.

    Edit: And I haven't played that long, but I did hear in passing that an old version of MM had those things and they were removed. Whether it's true or not, let's not get too sidetracked.
     
    Yeah, you heard that in this thread. And the OP had to do with modded/hacked Dbs and Ems. No one is getting side tracked.
    Am I sensing a tone? If so, I wasn't trying to be rude. Obviously I heard that before this thread. All I was saying is that there's no need to debate whether the MM had these things and were taken out. We know there are save files out there being passed around that have 99 DBs and mushrooms, MM or not. We know that it's easy to dupe DBs and mushrooms, MM or not.

    Serious_Much wrote:It was more about the guys opinion about healing items for me. Why would one form of healing be okay and another not? 

    I mean it's not like someone pulls out a channeller trident in PvP and the other black crystals out because he probably didn't farm for it..

    I call double standards to be honest
    A bit of a silly example. I don't have a problem with muling in general, people want to try out different builds and tweak them for PvP. The line for me is when doing it legitimately would take so much time, they wouldn't do it without the mule.

    If I didn't mule the trident, would I farm it? Yes. If I couldn't mule a 120 character for PvP, would I create it legitimately? Yes.

    Now would I actually do 10 playthroughs to get 99 DBs or 10 stacks of WotG or a pile of crystal weapons? No. This is where the unfair advantage comes in.

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Considering my usage of humanity alongside my skill relative to the majority of players and my observed db usage, I'd say that most DB's would be illegitimate.
    If people are merely duplicating a save, that might not be the case.  Take my SL 10 character with 2+ million souls for example.  Let's say I go farming and grab a few slabs and a ton of chunks across a few hours, as well as farm out 99 hard humanity and trade into 30 divine blessings.
    Yes, that's duping. Is there an argument as to whether duped items are legitimate?
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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:55 pm

    There might be, I don't know how everyone feels.  Hacking is a strict violation of every console's terms of service for example, but save file backups probably aren't.  So how one defines "legit" is probably matters.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:36 am

    BrotherBob wrote:@Forum Pirate: OK, so here's what I originally wrote:
    BrotherBob wrote:I know it's presumptuous, but I assume that my opponent is "not legit" (not necessarily hacking) if they pop even one DB. My reason is that I find it unfathomable for anyone to want to use such a valuable and rare item, unless they have an unnatural surplus of it. Again, that's my perspective and it is presumptuous, but I feel that most people who would be willing to use up a DB in any case either have an illegitimate amount or just don't care.
    Essentially, I assume that a player who uses a DB during a PvP fight did not obtain their stash of DBs exclusively from their own game, but rather from a gifter or from modding their save. In itself, it would have been a feeling, but I did back it up with the logic that most players (who had a "legitimate" amount of DBs, i.e. up to 10 from each playthrough) would not use such a powerful and limited item. This is not necessarily a proof or a concept that applies to all players, but it is certainly something that applies to upwards of 90% of players. Whenever I have played a game concurrently with other people I know, I tend to ask if they've chosen to use the game's uber-powerful item (if there is one, of course), which is what led me to that conclusion. Of course, I am aware of the sampling bias. So, in sum, I'm just trying to say that it's not just a feeling, but rather a conclusion that I have reached.

    At this point, I'm pretty sure that I'm not exactly in-line with the purpose of the thread so I'll get back on track from here on.
    And you get your numbers where? Have you conducted studies and surveys? have people verified your findings? no? then don't pull random numbers and use them as "evidence" for your arguements.

    second, why would they not use such a "rare and precious" item if they got them legit? I do, all the time.I have no intention of going to ng++++++++++++++++++ to get 99 more wnen i run out, and i have no need for them in pve. why then not use them when i'm losing a pvp match? I have them, i don't want to lose, i have no other use for them.


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

    Post by BrotherBob on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:25 pm

    I said that when I play games alongside friends and acquaintances, I tend to ask them about their usage of rare items. That's how I concluded that most people do not use the uber-rare items. I admitted that my research was subject to sampling bias and it is implied that it was not peer-reviewed. Did you read my post?


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    Re: Video with interesting view on PvP

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