Vitality and endurance.

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    Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:24 pm

    Thinking out loud here and I may be alone, but I feel that Vitality and possibly Endurance, should be changed to scale more with your level like Physical Defense than stats of their own. Most of the time leveling endurance and vitality is 2/3rds of every build. Most things will kill you quickly anyway if they land any good hits, so the differences often seem negligible for me to be spending 40 levels in Vit just to stay alive with a slither of health instead of improving the Core of my builds and their output, more.

    Not that I have a 'real' problem with how things are I just feel a bit dissatisfied with how slow Vit and Endurance scale with any given build, consuming near 80 levels just to reach optimal Vit and End, and even then you still take damage like a mofo and still have weight issues that may require you to spend even more Endurance just for a fast roll with no added stamina.

    I just think these stats should do a little bit of both auto-leveling and manual so as to cut back my expenditure into Vit and End and still get fair scaling for my level. It also makes sense to me that base level would improve physical defense as well as Vit and End as those are related traits.

    I'm sure there are many other balancing issues that come into play for this discussion, I just can't help but feel the Vit and End situation is a bit on the sloppy side.

    ALSO Ring of Favor, does too much for a ring, IMO and I hope there is no ring like it in DkS2. Sound's crazy to say it's too good but hear me out. The benefits of the ring are much to precious to ignore and not use. Chances are well over 75% of builds will have one. As a result we are almost forced by our nerve to use a ring slot for something you'd feel like a jackass for not using. Rather, there should have been an in-game event that improved your traits in a similiar way as opposed to a ring. It feels more like I'm wasting a slot and should be given that minimal boost by default. Without the ring, the natural Vit and End scaling just become and unfair amount to me. And in comparison to other rings with a single, often useless ability, it just does way to much for me not to outweigh it to the DWGR, Handy-Havels, or even a Wolf Ring.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:29 pm

    its possibel that they scale vitalaty more with the level because they say that they want to make the game more easy


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:46 pm

    Well it's nothing to do with easy-sake for me. Just build efficiency wise. I just don't feel like I should have to be pumping so many points into those stats just to be viable. Maybe I'm just getting soft..Prostration


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:47 pm

    if they give you more stats for each level it becomes  more easy to get trougth the game.
    i dont think dark souls 2 is going to be as epic as the first


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:06 pm

    I do, I still have faith in them, those who played the demo for DkS2 have assured it's difficulty. So I'm looking forward to it being better.

    I just mean it'd give just a little auto-build for those stats, similar to how your Physical Defense raises with every stat no matter where you put it. A modest bit of free Health/Stamina/Equip Load every five levels or so would be a welcome replacement for something like the Ring of Favor. Then my Vit and End will be scaled fairly without having to waste a ring slot for it.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:51 pm

    actually the ring of favor is too OP compared to the other rings, i hope they take it out
     i hope too that dark souls 2 as the epic story and dificult of DKs, they put so much work in this game that i would be trully impressed if they could make one even better


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by TheWanderer101 on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:56 pm

    I agree that the ring of favor and protection should be removed, its removal would encourage more creative ring combinations. I personally never use it to challenge myself.
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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:20 pm

    FaP, Wolf, and Havel's are overcentralizing rings, because they remove the penalty required to achieve certain goals (health, poise, fast roll).  Without them the armor tradeoffs are a lot more relevant, and the poise break variance is more meaningful between weapons.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:42 pm

    i agree, i use my dex build with wolf ring and DWGR so i can have some poise when using the gold-hammed set because i dont care very much for defense with my dex build, i just flip when needed and dont even use a shield, just a parrying knife to parry when im lucky, because im not very good at parrying and a darkmoon cataliyst to cast my buff


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:06 pm

    Yeah, that's exactly my point. They make power pretty easily accessible but it's one-dimensional. From Soft made sure to incorporate an 'Object' to Rule Them All for every bastion of character creation. By object I mean anything from weapons, to spells, even to playstyles, the game really does play favorites. And this makes to utterly pointless to even have a ring in the game like say, The Evil Eye Ring. Or why even bother incorporating Fist weapons? Or why is Gwyns sword set-up like an end-game BAMF weapon when it's really a joke.. The examples are endless. It's just a waste of game space and production time they could have used on finishing Undead King Jar Eel.

    The game centers around a few variant 'God-builds' and it caters to them as well. They render all others ineffective and just silly to use outside of pure challenge or aesthetic purposes. I understand player-skill can trump all and the most vital element is the human one, but even so it's pretty ridiculous. Why not just cut-out the middle man and have four starting classes? Giant-Dad, Dark Sorcerer, WotG Spammer, BS fisher. Why even bother giving me all these illusions of choice? I apologize, It's just very peeving to me.

    Don't get me wrong, I love these games, but Demons felt like it did a much better job with its diversity especially with it's rings. Most performed a single auxiliary function which it reasonable, and it's Vit/End stacked better with the games difficulty.

    Just seems like Dark Souls was a long way to go for such easy conclusions.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:26 pm

    Why not just cut-out the middle man and have four starting classes? Giant-Dad, Dark Sorcerer, WotG Spammer, BS fisher

    Gooby pls.

    http://mmdks.com/3hwp


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:53 pm

    i do not agree whith all of that because, From just makes the gear and rings the choice of use it or not is from players, in my case i do use the wolf ring and the uchigatana (that many players use as well) but i dont level up more than SL120 cause i dont want too OP just have some fun and learn more and more


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:29 pm

    Ishiotzin wrote:i do not agree whith all of that because, From just makes the gear and rings the choice of use it or not is from players, in my case i do use the wolf ring and the uchigatana (that many players use as well) but i dont level up more than SL120 cause i dont want too OP just have some fun and learn more and more

    This doesn't make sense.  SL120 is more than enough for a buffed min/maxed hybrid build.

    Some choices are rather obviously so much stronger than others that there is no reason from a strategy or "trying to win" to ever even consider the outclassed option.

    It's OK to have one or two outclassed/joke weapons, rings, or whatever.  However especially in the case of rings the majority of them are.  How many rings in this game?  Then, think about how many are used with any frequency aside from FaP, Wolf, Havel, Bellowing/Firstborn, and dark wood grain.

    There was no reason to balance the game such that poisonbite, bloodbite (roll through lul), any stoneplate, steel protection, tiny being's, evil eye are functionally worthless in PvP.

    Then you have joke spells like acid mist and the entire resistance stat, which starts off pretty bad and scales so utterly pathetically that nobody even considers touching it.

    More engaging/difficult choices would be a good thing, much better than that lulzy build I made above which, at SL120, can fish, blast people to **** with dark bead, spam WoG 9 times (and tick stab for a probable kill!), poise through UGS or any other slow weapon in existence for backstabs, and fast roll...all with solid defense and 1900 HP.
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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:38 pm

    the difference is that i dont use miracles,pyromancies or spells that are overpowered,i have darkmoon blade but some times i chose not to use to turn the figth more fun, and SL120 is the normal for figthing in the burg just for fun, im at that level for that reason


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:53 pm

    Meln get's it. I'm know the choice is up to the players but that's speaking with a variety in mind. There is no variety to choose because the differences in usefulness are so extreme at times there is no middle ground. Most items in Dark Souls are either good or they suck. Something either helps you or hinders you to an extreme there is rarely an inbetween.

    Ishiotzin, I understand to play for fun and all that as I had already mentioned. But outside of personal challenge and aesthetics I'm talking about the core competitive nature both PvE, and PvP. For every thing in this game there should be a viable use, or else it just shouldn't be in the game. I understand there can be lower level equip that's worse than higher level, but the majority of things go untouched altogether because they're useless filler.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:54 pm

    SL120 is a standard PvP level.

    Darkmoon blade is one of the strongest spells in the game, especially when applied to one of the better weapon classes in the game.  It's a good choice to use it because it's effective, but rather...questionable...to assert that other spells are "overpowered" while using the single strongest magic damage buff in the game on a weapon that is much harder to dodge than any spell out there.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:19 pm

    pretty much. and you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me any spell is overpowered when there are so many readily available ways to shut down casters. The crest shield, gmb,vos,sms, magic barrier, havels shield, the dwgr.

    At least one of these is available to any half decent build, and even arguably the least effective (the crest shield) will stop any magic with minimal harm done, the only exceptions being pursuers (which is so easy to dodge its sad) and dark bead, which can only overpower the shield at point blank range.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:43 pm

    I don't believe any one thing is overpowered, though I will stand that the lot of it is underpowered.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by crbngville2 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:58 pm

    No auto-build. Glass canons should be just that. Don't want a class cannon? Then invest in vitality. Wanna move like a slug? Fine, don't invest in endurance. Please don't ask for the game to give you points, for stats that you are not willing to invest in.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:11 pm

    crbngville2 wrote:No auto-build. Glass canons should be just that. Don't want a class cannon? Then invest in vitality. Wanna move like a slug? Fine, don't invest in endurance. Please don't ask for the game to give you points, for stats that you are not willing to invest in.

    You're completely missing my point. I have no problem investing in these stats, and I am by no means complaining on any sort of difficulty parameters. The fact is that the stats do too little for the amount that has to be invested. In a game centered around character builds both PvE and PvP, you may find spending 80 levels into your most basic needs enjoyable but I find it trivial, underscaled, and defeating the purpose of a build-focused game that attempts to killl you every turn.

    This doesn't do anything for the game or it's experience to demand so much investment into, as before, you're most basic needs. Especially when it already auto-levels your physical defense.


    I suppose in DkS2 you'll be all for the idea of leveling up your Eat, Sleep, and Breath stats as well.

    I'm not saying full auto-level necessarily but some slightly better scaling would be welcome. Just enough to obsolete the ring of favor.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:02 pm

    in pvp there are not many rings for a "average" player that only wants to get te best build, but in pve theres so many rings that you can use for different situations


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:16 pm

    I'm not discrediting that, but there are even more ways to get through the situations then there are reasons to swap rings.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:15 am

    It shouldn't level up your defense on leveling either.  In fact, tying that to the resistance stat alone would give that stat any use whatsoever.  You might even have to give res some poise added at break points to make it worth one's time.  Right now there is nothing more ridiculous in the game than a stat that is utterly meaningless after 40-50 levels, and sucky even before that.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:53 pm

    Yeah, I like the idea of a 'toughness' stat that would be for physical defense, resistances, poise, and small Vit/End bonus. Or no bonuses if the original stats are scaled better. It feels like they lowered the scaling just to make room for something like the RoF. I'd like to feel the same about 30, or even 35 Vit as I feel about 40. Endurance really is more reasonable, though it's the poor equip scaling that leaves it something to be desired.


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    Re: Vitality and endurance.

    Post by passivefamiliar on Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:20 pm

    we have not seen rings yet, or i have not anyway. but im hoping they are far less useful. as most of you say, there are a few chosen rings that all builds used, or most. and i think rings unbalanced the game in their own way. im hoping they are more, trade off based. or less well rounded. 

    seems like the new system favors versatility, and that could make health more abundant with the right class. but i dont want the upgrade system changed, much. i hated that i loved the harshness of the leveling system. you had to decide, do i want to be able to hit harder and use this new axe, or do i want to be able to not die as quickly. and choosing one put the next one even further from reach.

    at a certain point in demons souls my first playthrough, the pure phase. i remember that i stopped leveling because i didnt want to find a new weapon, and not have the stats to use it or the souls to level up.

    sadly, this is another issue thats hard to debate till we see what the new system is setup like. but im very anxious.


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