Gender Issue Discussion

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    Serious_Much
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:31 am

    Reading that I can't believe it's a serious article- half of it sounds like parody.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:34 am

    Poor Emergence.
    Got admin rights, banhammer, infinite rep, red name. All the sweet stuff.
    Gets bullied anyway. big grin
    winking


    Last edited by Sentiel on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:34 am

    Sentiel wrote:Awww damn! This what I was looking for.
    Requesting permission to quote a few parts of your post Reaper. It's sure gonna come in handy in the future (as it would've in the past...).
    By all means, go ahead happy

    FexDS wrote:-snipped for space-
    Not falling into this rabbit hole again, so instead of my own detailed responses that will inevitably result in me making a fool of myself again, I'll try a series of bullet-pointed counter-questions based on curiosities your post raised in me:

    -In an open forum, when is an outsider "supposed" to join in to voice their opinion?
    -Why do you all think an opinion adds nothing? The speaker has their own life circumstances that lead them to that conclusion through some combination of observation, experience, and research. Why does only one of those three matter?
    Do the other two not speak to how the issue was an influence on another human being?
    -How is "proclaiming that what you said means nothing" different from "dismissing their perspective?"

    And I lied, I will voice a bit of an opinion in response to something you typed. Hopefully it provides you with some insight, whether you agree with it or not, rather than just being inherently dismissed as "baseless opinion" because I don't have some research journal to back it up.

    That said, you misunderstand our side. We don't believe that "there is no sexism." Society does indeed treat men and women differently. Put most simply, we believe that men and women being different and having different roles or expectations is not necessarily a bad thing. Men and women are different, but that doesn't mean they aren't equal as human beings, and by understanding those differences we can grow closer as a species and better understand the human condition.

    But I've proven to myself before that talking in any real depth just gets me in trouble, and also that anything I've said to try and explain myself will be inadequate to anyone else. I guess I really am just masochistic like that though, so have an opinion of mine anyway.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:49 am

    Reaperfan wrote: -In an open forum, when is an outsider "supposed" to join in to voice their opinion?
    When the outsider can present that opinion as opinion -not fact-, do so civilly and be accepting that said opinion holds no water in a debate.

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Why do you all think an opinion adds nothing? The speaker has their own life circumstances that lead them to that conclusion through some combination of observation, experience, and research. Why does only one of those three matter? Do the other two not speak to how the issue was an influence on another human being?
    Because unfounded opinions are based on the sole perspective and worldview of one individual. If they cannot express how their views came to be and how those views are in any way representative of a larger sample than their direct interaction with a world. This point has already been touched not only by me but by many others, please read back.

    Reaperfan wrote:How is "proclaiming that what you said means nothing" different from "dismissing their perspective?"
    "what you said means nothing to this debate" = what you said does not add to this conversation (see above as to why)
    "dismissing their perspective" = dismissing their right to a perspective = not something we have done.

    Reaperfan wrote:We don't believe that "there is no sexism." Society does indeed treat men and women differently. Put most simply, we believe that men and women being different and having different roles or expectations is not necessarily a bad thing. Men and women are different, but that doesn't mean they aren't equal as human beings, and by understanding those differences we can grow closer as a species and better understand the human condition.
    1. TooLeet specifically said that gender issues have not been issues for a while. This is factually, demonstrably wrong.
    2. Your belief that men and women should have different roles and expectations is inherently sexist and, since you are not providing adequate backing or research, or even logic to support your argument that this is the case I will have to dismiss it as sexism. If you wish to explain further, go ahead, but please bring something more than "well I have a penis, she has a vagina, so we must be different and as such she belongs at home and me at work"
    3. What differences? You are providing broad, open ended and unjustified statements that make it impossible to determine what it is you are referring to.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:55 am

    Actually I will say if there is one thing I can really argue personally against some feminist ideas is simply the use of the word Patriarchy.  It isn't a proper word to use, it refers to when the law is that only a man can lead.  In certain countries there are patriarchies, but in areas like America it is not a patriarchy.  The main issue is just, there really isn't a proper word for a society where males generally dominate.  And there is likely a reason for that in relation to people not wanting such a word to exist.  

    If I could think of in English the best term to use, it would be something like a Patriarchal Stigma.  A sort of social aspect that is not enforced by law but rather generally by the people of a society.

    EDIT:  I should mention I'm referring to the very invention of the word and it's purpose referring to it only pertaining to law.  Over time the use especially in modern time includes societies rather than just government laws, so the modern use of the word can work.  I'm just a bit of a language Conservative and I like to think more in terms of the original intent of the word.
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by densetsushun on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:11 am

    Lemme just put this out there Reaper, setting all things aside, it is incredibly rude to everyone contributing in this thread to articulate and argument their points and for them to tackle the points in other people's post, while all you do is ask dodgy questions not expecting straight answers, immediately espouse that you're talking about your opinion and thus deserve 100% protection from scrutiny, refuse to explain your position(whether it's because you can't articulate well is irrelevant), then proceed to demand others to explain their position.

    Also, I personally see nothing wrong with someone talking about their opinion in a debate regarding a social issue, but I always adhere to the rule of never posting my opinion in a public setting if I don't expect scrutiny. You are free to have your opinion and voice it too, but that doesn't mean the facts don't disagree, nor that someone can't find your opinion offensive. Doubly so if you refuse to explain your opinion.

    Edit: Please excuse the grammatical errors, I just woke up and I'm catching myself brainfarting lol! 


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:35 am

    Tolvo wrote:Leet if you have absolutely nothing to contribute you probably shouldn't post in the thread.
     
    My opinion was my contribution. Just like your opinion. But okay, dude.


    Last edited by TooLeet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:40 am

    I like in America. Women can join the army and do as they please. They can vote. They can do anything a guy can. In school we were always taught about equal rights, and women fighting for years to be able to do things guys can do. Here's a little somethin for you.


    Nineteenth Amendment 
         Passed by Congress June 4, 1919.  
    Ratified August 18, 1920. 
    Section 1: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. 




    Section 2: Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.  




    Here is just a little example of how there is no gender issue. And besides the point, gender issues are the least of your worries.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:57 am

    No he did not say that. He said that your assertions were not backed and therefore do not add to the topic, and that your accusations that the administrative team indulges in a double standard are absurd. This very thread and the fact that we did not take action against people who openly insulted us and gave them second and third chances proves this.

    Further, your second post regarding how "women can do anything because of the American Constitution" is ignoring several relevant, well exposed points on this thread to the point I am inclined to guess you did not read it.

    If you will not bother understanding the discussion and will continue in an inflammatory tone, I will ask you to please move on to other threads that are more suited to your interests.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:58 am

    If I can also make a quick little thing about the American Constitution remark.

    Yes that is in the constitution, the laws we have are very fair to women generally.  There are social matters though based upon the beliefs of people rather than laws.

    Now the more general thing.  America is not the world, the world is not America.
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:59 am

    I do not feel the need to read 22 pages of a thread/topic when the conversation that fills is nothing but "YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME? *** YOU!"

    But yeah, i'm done.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by bunnywink on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:00 am

    I read your other post before it was deleted. Anyway, I just wanted to say that before you accuse Fex of having "tunnel vision" for being a female, I hope you take a good look at yourself. Perhaps because you are a male, you do not clearly see or experience the issues that affect women in the workplace, in the media, and just in general. Your example of the nineteenth amendent only proves that there has been progress in gender issues, but the disparity between the treatment of both genders still exists. I hope we can all agree to that.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:00 am

    The conversation has been varied and fruitful, and there have been no insults or the like. If you cannot be bothered to read the pages, then please don't assume the contents.


    Last edited by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:02 am

    bunnywink wrote:I read your other post before it was deleted. Anyway, I just wanted to say that before you accuse Fex of having "tunnel vision" for being a female, I hope you take a good look at yourself. Perhaps because you are a male, you do not clearly see or experience the issues that affect women in the workplace, in the media, and just in general. Your example of the nineteenth amendent only proves that there has been progress in gender issues, but the disparity between the treatment of both genders still exists. I hope we can all agree to that.

    Oh, well thanks for re-stating a deleted post. Good job, bud. thumbs up 


    I didn't say "tunnel vision" because she's a female. I said "tunnel vision" meaning "if you don't agree with me, *** you"

    People only see it their way, and their way only. But i'm done posting in a thread that is going nowhere and being treated like a female in America before equal rights came along.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:03 am

    Just for everyone's information, i was in no way, shape, or form trying to disrespect anyone or start problems. Just throwing that out there.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:06 am

    That is indeed good to know, since your previous posts can be taken really rather harshly.

    Now if you wish to participate in this thread, please bring backing to your arguments and please read previous statements. I have taken a lot of my time to answer in detail to many of the queries and posited arguments. I do not appreciate the accusation that I am simply telling people to F off because they disagree with me, as it is blatantly untrue.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:11 am

    FexDS wrote:That is indeed good to know, since your previous posts can be taken really rather harshly.

    Now if you wish to participate in this thread, please bring backing to your arguments and please read previous statements. I have taken a lot of my time to answer in detail to many of the queries and posited arguments. I do not appreciate the accusation that I am simply telling people to F off because they disagree with me, as it is blatantly untrue.
     
    I felt threatened. My opinions were thrown out the door. Alas, by the very people who i would not expect it from.

    And you're taking what i said too literal and took it the wrong way. I wasn't accusing you of telling people to F off. I was saying you don't accept other opinions without calling them nonfactual and pointless.  

    But no, i am done with this thread. No hard feelings, i just don't wish to be talked to the way i was talked to. 

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:13 am

    Tolvo wrote:America is not the world, the world is not America.
    This is agent Smith. It seems we found yet another terrorist. Please send a tactical response team to dispose of this potentional threat to liberty. Long live 'Murica! Over.

    NSA would like a word with you buster. big grin



    TooLeet wrote:I do not feel the need to read 22 pages of a thread/topic when the conversation that fills is nothing but "YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME? *** YOU!"
    I must say that this thread has shown me some of the problems and issues I was not aware of and was a very interesting and educating read. Totally worth your time if you're at least slightly interested in the topic at hand.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:17 am

    Education will hopefully one day lead to less ignorance in the world.  cheers

     
    EDIT:  I should also mention, "I didn't read the thread, but I know exactly what has been going on int i!" really isn't much of a point to make.
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:20 am

    I have a bright idea.
    How about I leave this little funny pic here and see what it will get me.

    Spoiler:

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:25 am

    Sen thats a pretty funny little comic silly


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:26 am

    TooLeet wrote:I felt threatened. My opinions were thrown out the door. Alas, by the very people who i would not expect it from.
    Your opinion is not valid just because you have it. You have a right to hold said opinion, but if you post it without any backing then be ready for it to be criticised as it rightly should. You accused the administration team of a double standard you cannot prove, and it is not appreciated.



    TooLeet wrote:And you're taking what i said too literal and took it the wrong way. I wasn't accusing you of telling people to F off. I was saying you don't accept other opinions without calling them nonfactual and pointless. 
    Opinions without facts are nonfactual. Nonfactual arguments are pointless to a debate. I fail to see how this is difficult to understand. Maybe you should re-read previous explanations by others than myself on how that works.


    TooLeet wrote:But no, i am done with this thread. No hard feelings, i just don't wish to be talked to the way i was talked to.
    You can only demand the tone you afford others. You barged into the thread making accusations and with a negative tone. You had this pointed out to you in what was not an improper manner. I don't believe you have a higher moral ground to stand in.


    Sentiel wrote:I must say that this thread has shown me some of the problems and issues I was not aware of and was a very interesting and educating read. Totally worth your time if you're at least slightly interested in the topic at hand.
    *Drops mic and walks off stage*
    :p


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by bunnywink on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:29 am

    TooLeet wrote:I do not feel the need to read 22 pages of a thread/topic when the conversation that fills is nothing but "YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME? *** YOU!"

    But yeah, i'm done.
    Fex, Emergence, Reim, Skare, Tolvo, and many, many, many other forum members have made really great contributions to this thread. Reading this thread has been an enlightening experience for me and a bit of an eye opener. If you feel strongly about the topic like the others participating in this conversation do, I think you should read the thread before you assume you're "being treated like a female in America before equal rights came along."


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by bunnywink on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:17 am

    Has anybody read this and this?

    I am really disappointed. I was looking forward to seeing Kick-*** 2, but now I'm like.... ehhhh... I mean, I'll still see it because I love Hit Girl. I think she's more interesting than the main protagonist and I love Chloe Moretz (the actress who plays Hit Girl). But I still think Mark Millar's ignorance is appalling.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Slarg232 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:44 am

    Now, why did the guy from Spawn have to get involved? It WAS my favorite comic series, closely followed by Blue Beetle......


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