Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:06 am

    If the host wants to be fair, the host should summon on a fair basis and not restrict someone based upon bias.

    I've crashed some FC's in the forest (literally the catbro forest) as an invader (darkwraith), now THOSE were some fun times.  Not sure why the host was doing that there but it was clearly what was going on.  Sometimes I even pretended to be a member and bowed to the other darkwraiths, it was great.  I had no idea what the rules were, but I mostly went for mace staggerstabs since that's what I had on hand.  I didn't kill the host because I liked the souls + fighting people, but hey he could have come after me if it really bothered him.

    Then again what do I know, maybe the "liked the souls" bit is exactly why he DIDN'T come after me big grin.
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:08 am

    Because some people like other things, and there are play styles we don't enjoy?  Should we also summon a person that just runs off and hides in the world, then Ninja flips away whenever you find them causing a forty minute hide and seek match when we're just trying to get duels?  We like to play against who we like to play against.  I don't summon people into my world when they are bragging to others and insulting people in the chat either, do I not have the right to choose who I summon or don't?  Or do you wish to put arbitrary rules upon how I summon people?
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Bontee on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:31 am

    Well, I guess it comes down to common sense. If you're in a fight club, playing for fun and all you do is 1 hit kills or anything else unfavorable or unfair just for a cheap win over someone else who is just trying to have fun, do you really think they'll want you around next time? And why do something like that anyway? Pulling of a cheap win every time with a bullsh*t tactic that takes little to no skill, so you can laugh in the face of some poor kid who was just trying to have fun? I don't see the logic behind this. It's FOR FUN, I'm not saying ban everything, I never once said to ban anything! I just said I didn't like instakills in fight clubs, in my opinion.

    Point being, it's for fun. Not some super competitive competition, the host isn't going to do any crazy rule bullsh*t, and all will be fine. Using common sense is best.

    What to do when the host puts in too many rules, if you hate it so much:

    Kill him and message him this.

    Well... at least that'd solve the problem pretty quick winking
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:48 am

    I think it would be easier to ban the use of Pursuers (and other potential 1-hitter-quitters if that is something the FC is looking to avoid) than to just say no "one shots."

    You never know when a guy is going to come in with a 20 Vitality build.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:57 am

    Generally you just punish someone in the FC if they cast pursuers, or you dodge them.
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:59 am

    I'm aware, but I'm just saying if you don't want to run any risk at all.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by StiffNipples on Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:37 am

    I should clarify that when I said this:

    ... you can simply not summon him again if his playstyle isn't in the spirit of the FC.

    I mean that if he isn't abiding by the rules don't summon him again, not just don't summon him because you're judge and jury and don't like his catalyst (even though it is your world, you can summon who you want, don't let me tell you what to do).


    Also the reason Pursuers are usually banned (along with fishing and chain stabbing) is because of lag/latency. It was community voted (not this community, diff one), and no one has an issue with it.  
     
    No one likes getting lagblasted for their entire health, just the same as no one likes getting continuously sucked into backstabs because of latency.  
    In a world where everyone has a perfect 0ms connection to everyone else these things wouldn't be a problem, but this is the real world. I haven't been to a FC that bans Dark Bead yet, but I also know that spamming it (also goes for Black Flame stunlock, WotG dead angling, GC spam) won't curry you any favour.


    The fact of the matter is Fight Club rules are set by the host (generally during the organisation of such events), and don't have to carry any logical justification at all, it's their world, their little gathering and therefore their rules (house rules).  


    Usually when I partake in a FC it follows the same rules as what is used for the Tourneys and League matches that the participants fight in, so everyones characters are already set up to comply with the rules, it's easy and there isn't really ever a problem.


    Also thanks for the uprep whoever did that, not entirely sure what I said to annoy them, but meh   Shrug


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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:00 am

    Did i miss you casting twop? Pursuers are pretty easy to dodge, the guy\victim messed up and i see nothing wrong with it. Also FC should get a different view if he's twitching.


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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by shadowzninjaz on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:18 am

    Derpwraith wrote:
     
    SL125 fight club that was on Twitch a few days ago, Pursuers is just another part of the game, no hate. not me 

    Hahahahaha your description in your video "Most of the time I spam dark beads while the opponent is distracted by my pursuers, but I tried to play nice and look what happened. "
    Wonder what that says about u as a player hahahahaha,

    The other guy in the video not the host miss played bad, it happens


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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by h3avym3tal on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:12 am

    That's not a one-shot, that is five hits at the same time.


    Just saying.
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:31 am

    Because some people like other things, and there are play styles we don't enjoy?

    Sure, if everyone agrees ahead of time.  The problem here is that it is quite literally sheer preference, and finding large numbers of people who like and dislike precisely the same tactics is uncommon.

    I don't summon people into my world when they are bragging to others and insulting people in the chat either, do I not have the right to choose who I summon or don't?

    The problem with this question is that it's shifting the burden.  I am saying that rules that don't exist shouldn't be enforced.  If one is hosting a "fight club" with people who have agreed to participate in it and abide by the rules, then yes it is a jerk move to avoid summoning someone typically.  Insults and things like hacking are clear violations.

    But you already put the integrity of the FC in danger with "not summoning when they are bragging".  Insulting someone is a reasonably clear line, whereas bragging is less so.  One might perceive this differently, or even have meant no ill will.

    There's another inconsistency in what you're saying too: if someone buffs a weapon or especially uses power within, running away to stall it is a rational decision.  While a 40 minute hide and seek match goes against the "fight" part of FC, running away for an extended period of time is every bit as legit a tactic as buffs and arguably more so than glitch usage, if there is a reason to do so.  However, a lot of players would perceive such running away as "cowardly" and not re-summon someone who, for all intents and purposes, was executing a rational response to a common build.  Such would be an asinine and indefensible position; one could argue just as logically that the person applying the buff shouldn't be re-summoned.  So what do you do?  Ban both running and buffs?  But if you don't, they are *equally valid* tactics.

    Well, I guess it comes down to common sense.

    It is a typical pattern to assert common sense when one's argumentative position isn't holding up.  If it's so common, you should probably be able to justify it logically.  Otherwise, replace "common sense" with "the way I want other people to play" for a more accurate statement.

    When someone running an event or competition makes a "common sense" rule, it really means that they want someone's opinion to be word of law.  That is the only thing that is "common" about any "common sense" rules.

    In reality, asserting one strong build is skill-less while another requires skill without any valid/rational/proven basis is anything but common sense.  It's a fallacy.

    I think it would be easier to ban the use of Pursuers (and other potential 1-hitter-quitters if that is something the FC is looking to avoid) than to just say no "one shots."

    You never know when a guy is going to come in with a 20 Vitality build.

    If you can get enough people to agree to it ahead of time, you can ban anything.

    However, banning pursuers is no more logically valid than banning backstabs, weapon buffs, wrath of gods tickstabs, spears/katanas, or anything else players don't like.  You die very, very quickly in this game.  I've seen people complaining about a 2 hit stagger --> backstab mace with sunlight blade.  They themselves had DMB buff on, and were perfectly willing to toggle.  Their position doesn't even make sense, but that didn't matter to that person.

    There's a reason rules need a rational basis for their creation, and that reason is that without one, you lead to opinions destroying balance rather than creating it.


    Also the reason Pursuers are usually banned (along with fishing and chain stabbing) is because of lag/latency.

    Sillyness.  If you're so far behind on lag that you're eating phantom pursuers hits, you're also going to eat phantom buff hits and get client-side stab "punished".

    How do you even ban a nebulous tactic like "fishing"?  You could counter-BS someone and he could claim you were fishing him, while you could claim you thought he was fishing.  Does deliberately going for punishes on slower weapons constitute fishing?  What about poise-stabs?  Roll-BS?  Stagger-stab?

    I'm tempted not to even grace "chain stabbing is banned due to lag" with a response.

    I'm also long-amused by FC that ban in-game tactics but permit glitches.  That's always amusing.  But hey it's all "for fun and common sense", amirite?  Let's glitch the other guy to death while he can't use a spell to 1-shot us winking.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:12 pm

    Common sense is applied and implied because it is commonly understood by many.

    When someone uses that as a counter-argument, it is rarely because their argument is not holding up, but because the argument has gotten so ridiculously analytical, that there is almost no other response worth stating.

    No one (usually) wants to go into a 5 page dissertation explaining why they believe their perception is rational, and don't feel there is a need to explain it.

    When someone says, "well, its common sense" its usually because the person/persons they are talking to wants to defend their point to the point of trying to nullify another's point of view completely.

    Avoiding a debate with someone who simply wants to debate until the cows come home is usually not a desirable conversation by most rational people.  Which is why most times, someone uses the term "common sense".

    ie. She was extremely drunk and said she wanted to have sex, common sense would dictate you should wait until she sobers up.

    Common sense is not as subjective as some would make it out to be, which is why it is called "common sense" and not "my individual interpretation of what makes sense".

    my 2 sense

    @Derpwraith

    Lol.  Nice job.  Did he say you were lagging?  Did you cast it before he was summoned?  I didn't watch close enough. Shrug
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:20 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:I'm also long-amused by FC that ban in-game tactics but permit glitches.  That's always amusing.  But hey it's all "for fun and common sense", amirite?  Let's glitch the other guy to death while he can't use a spell to 1-shot us winking.
    FCs can ban whatever they wish. Whether it has a reason or not. You're argument seems to be about the rules behind competitive FCs, not FCs in general. Some people have fun with glitches and don't enjoy buffs. Is that wrong for them to like that? No.
    FCs are meant to create an environment in which the players can have fun. But, obviously, not everyone enjoys the same things. Not everyone enjoys buffs, WoG or even Backstabs. Thus, so long as it is agreed upon beforehand, it can be bannable. Having a 'valid reason' only makes sense when considering a competitive FC. I could easily make an FC and ban rolling just for the heck of it. Because some people find that fun.


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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:26 pm

    the argument has gotten so ridiculously analytical, that there is almost no other response worth stating.

    This is another non-argument used as a "counter argument".  If people so commonly agreed on tactics used in PvP/FC, there wouldn't be such a disparity in preferences in terms of what is "cheap" and what isn't.  One guy thinks dark bead is cheap, the other thinks that roll-bs working on almost any attack other than the fastest dex weapons/straight swords is cheap.  Neither is more accurate.

    Avoiding a debate with someone who simply wants to debate until the cows come home is usually not a desirable conversation by most rational people.  Which is why most times, someone uses the term "common sense".


    People avoid debate with logical points because they don't have logical points to use as a response and refuse to simply say "this is only my preference and nothing more".  Asserting a tactic as "cheap" or "shouldn't be used in PvP" crosses a certain line; it is asserting how other people should play the game.  In order to rationally justify doing so, you need more than just preference that point.  You need a good reason to restrict the actions of other players.   Unless, of course, they also want the same restrictions as you want (IE share identical preferences).

    Lacking such reasons, a lot of people in competitive MP fall back on "common sense says you should play my way".  No sell.

    Common sense is not as subjective as some would make it out to be, which is why it is called "common sense" and not "my individual interpretation of what makes sense".

    In the case of this thread and many other similar FC rules threads, people are using "common sense" and "my individual interpretation of what makes sense" synonymously.  Even in the post I'm quoting, the best counter-argument I'm seeing is "I think you're wrong", with no reason why. 

    "I don't feel like it/can't be bothered to actually defend a point" is a typical excuse.  If that were true, however, why bother to address opposing points whatsoever?  What is the point of entering a discussion without a sound reasoning behind arguments that can be presented?

    ie. She was extremely drunk and said she wanted to have sex, common sense would dictate you should wait until she sobers up.

    There are laws about this and those laws are very clear, so this is a bad analogy to the present situation.

    Not to mention alcohol is a rather pathetic excuse in general, and that both people could easily be equally drunk.  Even so, there are clear laws with clearly defined consequences for violating them.  That is exactly what a FC needs, so it's nice of you to cite an example that supports my position.

    FCs are meant to create an environment in which the players can have fun. But, obviously, not everyone enjoys the same things. Not everyone enjoys buffs, WoG or even Backstabs. Thus, so long as it is agreed upon beforehand, it can be bannable. Having a 'valid reason' only makes sense when considering a competitive FC. I could easily make an FC and ban rolling just for the heck of it. Because some people find that fun.

    You are right of course.  I wasn't clear enough when I was arguing earlier that I meant the rules criteria for competitive FC.  There is nothing wrong with FC that set all kinds of wonky rules if everyone in them agrees ahead of time.  Something like "fist weapons only", "no rolls", "must use rapiers only with no shields or blocking or poise", etc are all examples of some sillyness that can still be fun if everyone does it.

    Even in those cases, however, it's best to make them clear.  "no roll" is very clear.  "no fishing" is not clear, while "no backstabs whatsoever" is clear.

    All that said, in the video in the OP the use of pursuers was 100% justified and it is absurd to criticize someone for picking a valid, legal in-game option when it isn't against any rules at all.
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Leet on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:43 pm

    Welp, another thread bites the dust.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:50 pm

    TooLeet wrote:Welp, another thread bites the dust.

    I know right?  Poor player got called out for "not having skill" and the video was called "ridiculous" almost from the start.  Poor thread never had a chance.

    It's almost as if it got ganked/one-shotted big grin.
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Leet on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:52 pm

    It was kind of hard to see what really happened. And impossible to know what that guys ring setup and all that was.


    All i know is, i'd be pissed if i was one shotted like that. twistedevil



    Edit: Well, not one shotted. I should say, hit with all of that at the same time and caused me to die.


    Last edited by TooLeet on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:57 pm

    TooLeet wrote:All i know is, i'd be pissed if i was one shotted like that. twistedevil

    To be fair, in that location in New Londo where they were fighting it actually is a pretty ideal spot for dodging Pursuers (open, lots of room to run, pillars all over, etc...). 95% sure I would've dodged the spell but that's delving into the shady world of the hypotheticals.

    Also, the host gave us a horrible view of the fight so we couldn't really see much. I don't know what he was thinking choosing such an angle, and pulling out the binoculars only tightened our view further rather than allowing us to view in greater detail. straight face 

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Leet on Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:00 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:
    TooLeet wrote:All i know is, i'd be pissed if i was one shotted like that. twistedevil

    To be fair, in that location in New Londo where they were fighting it actually is a pretty ideal spot for dodging Pursuers (open, lots of room to run, pillars all over, etc...). 95% sure I would've dodged the spell but that's delving into the shady world of the hypotheticals.

    Also, the host gave us a horrible view of the fight so we couldn't really see much. I don't know what he was thinking choosing such an angle, and pulling out the binoculars only tightened our view further rather than allowing us to view in greater detail. straight face 

     

    I don't remember the last time i was hit by pursuers, unless it was from crazy lag. Like you said, it's very hard to tell. Sh#% does happen though. There's no way we can know what really happened. Praise the Sun

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:27 pm

    When you say one shot builds, I always imagine glass cannons at first.
    Glass cannons are perfectly fine by me and I even like them. In most cases, both the glass cannon and me can one shot each other, which makes the fight fair and thrilling.

    But most one shot builds I meet are usually DWGR, Hornet Ring, Havel's Armor, Hollow Legs, Large Club people. Sometimes with buff. Not only they can one shot me, but they can also trade with me, poise stab me, have evasive advantage thanks to DWGR and if all else fails, they sometimes have Dark Bead, or GC/BF spam into bs and spamming roll R1.

    Such a build is min/maxed way too much for my tastes and is definitely not fun to fight. The only way to fight these guys is to backstab them before they can backstab you, or use spears, but those require a LOT of space to make up for their DWGR. Super boring.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:38 pm

    Unfortunately people find fun in different things.  Min/maxed builds are fun for some people, and it's worth noting that such a build could easily be allowed in a FC while a pure mage glass cannon isn't, literally in the name of fun.


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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:46 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:Unfortunately people find fun in different things.  Min/maxed builds are fun for some people, and it's worth noting that such a build could easily be allowed in a FC while a pure mage glass cannon isn't, literally in the name of fun.
    I'd rather deal with glass cannon mage than one shot bs fisher anyday.

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Leet on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:31 pm

    Sentiel wrote:When you say one shot builds, I always imagine glass cannons at first.
    Glass cannons are perfectly fine by me and I even like them. In most cases, both the glass cannon and me can one shot each other, which makes the fight fair and thrilling.

    But most one shot builds I meet are usually DWGR, Hornet Ring, Havel's Armor, Hollow Legs, Large Club people. Sometimes with buff. Not only they can one shot me, but they can also trade with me, poise stab me, have evasive advantage thanks to DWGR and if all else fails, they sometimes have Dark Bead, or GC/BF spam into bs and spamming roll R1.

    Such a build is min/maxed way too much for my tastes and is definitely not fun to fight. The only way to fight these guys is to backstab them before they can backstab you, or use spears, but those require a LOT of space to make up for their DWGR. Super boring.

     

    +1

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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:45 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:Unfortunately people find fun in different things.  Min/maxed builds are fun for some people, and it's worth noting that such a build could easily be allowed in a FC while a pure mage glass cannon isn't, literally in the name of fun.
    I'd rather deal with glass cannon mage than one shot bs fisher anyday.

    That is your opinion only, and while I share it, not everybody does.

    I consider it acceptable to stall out the buffs on those types of builds, using whatever means necessary.
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    Re: Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.

    Post by Ishiotzin on Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:14 pm

    there are many people that enjoy the game by being a challenge and put themselfs to different types of gaming but there is always the guys that want evrithing easy and just gank, use OP builds or one-shot in FC.
    this world no see


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