I suck at Pyromancy >.<

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    Asdeft

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    I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Asdeft on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:28 am

    Hey all! I am using the usual dex/pyro build: Build
    It is a pretty standard build. I have the chaos blade because it fits the theme and I love it. Faith and talisman are for TWOP'ing gankers. 

    Now to the point, I want to get better at using pyromancies. I am well acquainted with the Black Flame as I used that on my Giant Dad, and that is usually all I end up using with this build. I love great chaos fireball though. I throw it at my feet to keep them away, or directly at them like a great fireball. The few times I have gotten it to hit (1/20 fireballs), it has done massive damage, ~800. Fire surge gets me back-stabbed a lot, they seem to roll through, but I see it's potential. I don't know when/how to use these effectively. I am alright at the game and am just getting bored with the sword/shield stuff. Fire tempest is high risk/high reward, I like it, I can use it well.
    Is there perhaps better spells you can recommend?

    TL;DR: HOW DO I CHAOS FIREBALL AND FIRE SURGE EFFECTIVELY!?!?


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by WaffleGuy on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:40 am

    I think Fire Surge starts firing faster is you use a Pyro Flame in the left hand. I know it had something benificial by using it in the left hand.

    Then, to get better at using Fireballs, I suggest you start practicing on enemies without locking on. You have to aim upwards a bit, or you'll throw it close to your feet. It helps because every child knows you can evade a locked on fireball by rolling to a side. Try to guess which side your opponent rolls to and aim that way. Chances are he rolls right into it.

    I've never had much benefit of the Chaos version of the fireball. I use the Great Fireball because the lava doesn't help me much IMO. And it gives you another slot to fill with other pyromancies.

    I'm not a pyro expert, so try some thinks and see for yourself what feels right. silly


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:48 am

    Learn to predict enemy movements and aim Fireballs in their path. It should raise your hit/miss ratio to 1/3 at least. If you use enviroment to your advantage as well, you can hit with almost every thrown Fireball. Still, it's a high risk spell.

    Fire Surge is great to finish the fight, especially when your opponent starts to turtle. Just use 1-3 casts and keep moving. Never hold it down. Do it frequently and oftne to confuse your enemy and do some small damage. Also, if you time it correctly to use only 1 cast, it usually ends up being invisible. Whilst doing little damage, people usually won't block it. Also, people will be aggresive and try to attack you, or roll away, so the 1-3 casts and keeping mobile will help you in both of the scenarios.

    Fire Tempest is amazing. I use it only as a surprise attack, or as a wake up attack when my backstab gets canceleed. It's also great against high Poise builds, because they get hit by the fire pillars twice, doing massive damage.

    Additionally, you can lern some Pyromancy combos. A good example is to stagger someone with Black Flame and chain it into Fire Whip. There's more, of course. Usually in the manner of stagger and follow up, so most of these start with Black Flame, or Great Fireball. Dexterity 45 required for some of them, if not most.

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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:21 am

    A few things:

    - 20 Attunement is silly.  Use 19 or 23.
    - Why 22 strength?  It's giving you no benefit.
    - You have a thorulund talisman, and say it's for gankers/TWoP, but have no faith spells attuned.  18 is a bad stopping point for faith; homeward bones aren't that expensive.  Best faith break points are 14 (magic barrier + great heal excerpt), 24 (great magic barrier), 30 (WoG, Vow of Silence, both buffs), and 50 (sunlight blade).  You almost always want base, 14 or 30 unless going pure faith IMO.
    - Pyros get boosted by bellowing ring and crown of dusk, and you're using neither.

    I re-did your build to make it 5 SL lower but more effective:

    http://mmdks.com/3grg

    - We drop FaP instead of wolf to keep 61 poise; black flame trades with this dex will beat anything but the UGS class poise break weapons. 50 vitality compensates that.
    - This build needs no faith, it's pretty much a dex/pyro.
    - Str down to 16, which will let you use MOST dex weapons other than mura even in 1 hand.
    - Attunement to 19, for no penalty.
    - I had a few levels to spare so I threw a couple points into endurance for equip burden, although going to SL 125 and getting to 14 faith instead is acceptable.

    On using pyromancies:

    Pyros are mostly about poisebreak+damage combos.  Here are some decent combos you can use with what I've highlighted above:

    - Great fireball --> Black Flame
    - Great fireball --> Fire whip --> Black flame (this will kill almost anybody)
    - Black Flame --> Black Flame (a lot of rookie players will try to poise trade you, take advantage).

    Fire tempest is *mostly* anti-gank.  The idea is to move into tight areas and fire it off when they are obstructing each other, sliding down a ladder, stuck in a small area while chasing you, etc.  Occasionally you can get one off right after spawning in on gankers too, and it will often kill people trying to TWoP instantly.  Actually, with bellowing + CoD it kills most builds instantly.
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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Asdeft on Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:36 am

    TheMeInTeam wrote:A few things:

    - 20 Attunement is silly.  Use 19 or 23.
    - Why 22 strength?  It's giving you no benefit.
    - You have a thorulund talisman, and say it's for gankers/TWoP, but have no faith spells attuned.  18 is a bad stopping point for faith; homeward bones aren't that expensive.  Best faith break points are 14 (magic barrier + great heal excerpt), 24 (great magic barrier), 30 (WoG, Vow of Silence, both buffs), and 50 (sunlight blade).  You almost always want base, 14 or 30 unless going pure faith IMO.
    - Pyros get boosted by bellowing ring and crown of dusk, and you're using neither.

    I re-did your build to make it 5 SL lower but more effective:

    http://mmdks.com/3grg

    - We drop FaP instead of wolf to keep 61 poise; black flame trades with this dex will beat anything but the UGS class poise break weapons. 50 vitality compensates that.
    - This build needs no faith, it's pretty much a dex/pyro.
    - Str down to 16, which will let you use MOST dex weapons other than mura even in 1 hand.
    - Attunement to 19, for no penalty.
    - I had a few levels to spare so I threw a couple points into endurance for equip burden, although going to SL 125 and getting to 14 faith instead is acceptable.

    On using pyromancies:

    Pyros are mostly about poisebreak+damage combos.  Here are some decent combos you can use with what I've highlighted above:

    - Great fireball --> Black Flame
    - Great fireball --> Fire whip --> Black flame (this will kill almost anybody)
    - Black Flame --> Black Flame (a lot of rookie players will try to poise trade you, take advantage).

    Fire tempest is *mostly* anti-gank.  The idea is to move into tight areas and fire it off when they are obstructing each other, sliding down a ladder, stuck in a small area while chasing you, etc.  Occasionally you can get one off right after spawning in on gankers too, and it will often kill people trying to TWoP instantly.  Actually, with bellowing + CoD it kills most builds instantly.

     Thanks for the detailed reply and re-done build! I will certainly use this in the future. The reason for the lack of TWOP actually being there is because I don't like to have it on all the time. I switch between that and fire tempest, but when I want to use it, I can. The reason for the lack of corwn of dusk is just because I hate the way my character's hair looks and like it covered silly I will get over it for the extra damage, I guess.
    FaP ring is crutch I must learn to go without. The idea of a ohk fire tempest is very pleasing, I had no idea of it's damage potential.
    It seems the main thing I need to learn is these combos. I'll get a black knight, red stoneplate buddy to help me with those.
    Don't ask about the strength, I have no idea either. It may have just been spare points.


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by densetsushun on Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:01 am

    Asdeft wrote:Don't ask about the strength, I have no idea either. It may have just been spare points.
    Always throw spare points into endurance or vitality. Vitality means more HP, which is always a good thing, but if you're comfortable with that end means more equip burden (heavier armor combos for maximum defense and poise) and more stamina (unless you've already hit 40). The general idea is to not pump spare points into anything you're not really going to use.

    If you won't get more attunement for it, don't pump att. Don't pump strength if you're not a strength build or you won't use the weapons that need that extra strength. Don't pump dex if you can't maximize damage with it (a few points of extra AR is a waste in my opinion) or gain faster cast speeds(in which case 45 is enough). Same as with strength and dex, extra int and faith is useless if the extra points don't unlock something new or increase damage staggeringly. Resistance isn't even an option.


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:44 pm

    IMO crown of the dark sun is a good alternative to CoD if you want to look slightly less ridiculous, although you do lose 10% damage.  I'm not sure how far a Tempest will take you with bellowing + CoDS.

    I suspect 1800 hp builds with good fire resist might actually survive a boosted tempest, albeit barely.  Nothing normal would survive it with PW or RTSR, but that's too gimmicky/unreliable even vs ganks.  In practice, I have seen very, very few people survive bellowing + CoD tempests in the forest.

    TWoP is nice but it won't kill gankers on its own, and you might not have time to get it off.  Any of these is probably a more effective way to deal with them:

    - WoG tickstab --> hated tactic by many, but a good part of the reason it is hated is the efficacy happy.
    - Boosted tempest --> as I mentioned
    - Force/WoG near ledges --> self-explanatory
    - Poise + surpise dark bead --> Derp happy.
    - Hornet fishing --> If you can land these, you can cause a lot of problems.
    - Zwei 2h r1 unlocked --> Experienced gankers or those with high poise are a danger, but frequently you can stunlock someone into oblivion unlocked, or stagger-BS before anybody can react.

    You also have some niche things that are pretty funny, like camping the bridge in the forest with a shield like Havel's or GSoA with huge poise, a spear, and fire tempest.  People sure do love dying that way big grin.


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:54 pm

    Unlocked.

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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Paragon on Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:05 pm

    Though not actually a pyromancy, the Dragon's breath functions in basically the same manner as fire surge. If you wanna practice using fire surge without having to constantly rest at a bonfire to restock, practicing unlocked with the dragons breath is a great substitute. Give it a try!


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:44 pm

    Fire tempest actually works amazing in places like the depth, because host's tend to stay in the bonfire room. If you're going to invade there, bring an AoE spell.

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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by befowler on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:49 pm

    What I have found very effective is to disguise my 45 dex pyro build as a midrolling melee tank.  Crown of the dark sun instead of crown of dusk.  Bellowing dragon ring instead of wolf or something else.  Then pick a low str weapon like a claymore or something (not an obvious dex weapon like a katana) and put on some other armor to get poise above 60.  Crest shield.  What tends to happen is folks expect a melee fight or to pepper you with spells and instead they eat a bunch of fast cast OP fire whips and black flames.  You can stun people with black flame then dump chaos fireballs on their heads, use chaos fire whip to punish them around corners or hit them coming out of rolls, and black flame is amazing against BS fishers and laggy opponents.  Particularly effective against DM mages given their long cast times and tendency to have low poise.


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:19 pm

    befowler wrote:What I have found very effective is to disguise my 45 dex pyro build as a midrolling melee tank.  Crown of the dark sun instead of crown of dusk.  Bellowing dragon ring instead of wolf or something else.  Then pick a low str weapon like a claymore or something (not an obvious dex weapon like a katana) and put on some other armor to get poise above 60.  Crest shield.  What tends to happen is folks expect a melee fight or to pepper you with spells and instead they eat a bunch of fast cast OP fire whips and black flames.  You can stun people with black flame then dump chaos fireballs on their heads, use chaos fire whip to punish them around corners or hit them coming out of rolls, and black flame is amazing against BS fishers and laggy opponents.  Particularly effective against DM mages given their long cast times and tendency to have low poise.

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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by OminousSquaffle on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:21 pm

    Asdeft wrote:Hey all! I am using the usual dex/pyro build
    It is a pretty standard build. I have the chaos blade because it fits the theme and I love it. Faith and talisman are for TWOP'ing gankers. 

    Now to the point, I want to get better at using pyromancies. I am well acquainted with the Black Flame as I used that on my Giant Dad, and that is usually all I end up using with this build. I love great chaos fireball though. I throw it at my feet to keep them away, or directly at them like a great fireball. The few times I have gotten it to hit (1/20 fireballs), it has done massive damage, ~800. Fire surge gets me back-stabbed a lot, they seem to roll through, but I see it's potential. I don't know when/how to use these effectively. I am alright at the game and am just getting bored with the sword/shield stuff. Fire tempest is high risk/high reward, I like it, I can use it well.
    Is there perhaps better spells you can recommend?

    TL;DR: HOW DO I CHAOS FIREBALL AND FIRE SURGE EFFECTIVELY!?!?

     Lots of good advice so far but I'll throw in my two cents worth.

    In my perfectly honest opinion Fire Surge is not a viable PvP spell. It's a shame, because it looks boss as hell and it's the only pyro spell that can be used while moving, butttt it doesn't do enough damage in a short enough period of time to be worth it. The only time I've found any use for it is when dealing with fat rolling/slow walking builds that for some reason aren't using shields with high fire resistance. You can also use it as a wakeup spell after backstabbing someone but GCombustion/black flame work better for this.

    Chaos fireball is my favorite pyromancy spell, end of. I find it actually works better as a defensive spell than as an offensive one; when faced with gankers, I usually take off into the forest and blind-throw one behind me if I hear them getting too close (they ALWAYS run headlong into it, which stuns them for a moment and gives me time to bail) If you can learn to free-aim well it can also work if, as someone else stated, you predict where they're moving to and throw a fireball there so they strafe/roll into it.

    My pyromancy mainstays are one (sometimes two) stacks of great chaos fireballs, one of black flame, one of fire tempest and one of fire whip. Fire whip's another tricky one to use; it's good as a wakeup spell after backstabs and, if you time it well, it's also good to use against charging opponents as they'll often run headlong into it.


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:51 pm

    Oh true, if you whip around on someone chasing you and stun them with a fire whip don't forget that you can almost certainly follow up with a GC or BF after that.  If fire whip gets a double hit you have a good chance of killing them.

    With bellowing + dragoncrest fire surge does hurt a lot.  I've had a few times where my opponent with a dex build and I each killed each other while I was using it.


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    Re: I suck at Pyromancy >.<

    Post by Jansports on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:24 am

    You can get a little over 1,000 damage if you trade firesurge for 2 2h claymore hits(assuming you poised the first and kept casting) And that's with just crown, with crown and ring you can really mess them up if they think swinging repeatedly to stun you is a good plan.  This is about FireSurge of course.

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