Strength VS Dexterity

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    Lmaousine
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    Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Lmaousine on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:56 pm

    So, which category of weapons are generally better for PvP?

    No Quality weapons.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:31 pm

    Dexterity,the argument behind being it's easier to get hits due to the faster swings on most weapons.But there is little more terrifying than a strength master who times their attacks well.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by RANT on Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:07 pm

    dex.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:47 pm

    Depends on your playstyle.


    Remember the golden rule, You are the greatest weapon you can find in Dark Souls.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:43 pm

    Dexterity.

    Don't believe in Wilkinson's hippie nonsense.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Sneezer on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:10 pm

    You know that one katana toting, ninja flipping guy, with a Mom mask everyone complains about? Yeah, there's a reason you don't hear people complaining about a Demon's Greataxe, midrolling guy with a greatshield.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Latitoast on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:07 pm

    I feel like Dex weapons are easier to learn how to use, but once you learn how to use a strength weapon you're going to beat most Dex players.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Leet on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:13 pm

    Wilkinson3424 wrote:Depends on your playstyle.


    Remember the golden rule, You are the greatest weapon you can find in Dark Souls.

     

    ^This.

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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Cronotis on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:19 pm

    Latitoast wrote:I feel like Dex weapons are easier to learn how to use, but once you learn how to use a strength weapon you're going to beat most Dex players.

    I agree with this, but most players aren't that good.  So you're essentially saying a skilled player using a strength build will defeat a lesser skilled player using a dex build.  When skill is equal dex wins.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:53 pm

    dex.

    Poise is too easy to come by, and str weapons tend to be prohibitively heavy.

    also spears.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Cabjoy on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:02 pm

    Yeah I think Dex's main advantages lie in their very low weight, allowing you to stack defenses and poise easier than you would with say, the Large Club or the Grant. I much prefer using strength weapons, but it's always a risk using weapons like these and light rolling since you'll generally be left with very little defenses in lvl 100 builds particularly.

    That, and dex builds immediately get access to pyro as an effective complimentary tactic.
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:07 pm

    Oh I prefer str weapons, but they're just not as good (maybe in a vaccume, but not after considering poise/defences/roll speed.) Despite my like 300 hours using the large club or the like 500 hours with a dgm, and my like 20 hours using a spear, I'm much more likely to win using a spear than a large club or dgm.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Cabjoy on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:24 pm

    Absolutely! And it's lame. sad

    Then again, I much prefer having harder/unwinnable fights using strength weapons than winning with more well rounded builds. It's the same reason I've never gone to the classic pyro/washing pole build, simply because it seems like a really strong build.

    I think the most fun I've had with a build was my Large Club/Hand Axe quality build which had nothing but a dark hand to defend with purely to save weight for fast roll. Seriously so much fun!
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by StiffNipples on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:51 pm

    I find Str weapons more fun, but there is no denying that Dex weapons are superior in PvP.

    It's easy to get a hit with a dex weapon while a Str weapon is winding up, then roll through the attack and get another hit/BS. Str weapons are also much easier to blind parry due to the long windup. Just last night I was hosting in the Forest and had a bit of a FC going, and one guy blind parried a DGA just because the windup is so long, and the ping wasn't even good. He did it 3 times in a row in one fight then another 2 times in a row later on.
    That's not predicting when they'll hit like you have to with Dex weapons (more of a mind game), it was just watching for when he started to swing and parrying. Too easy.

    Then there is the weight penalty. It's far easier to rock a fast rolling character with decent poise and armour with a dex weapon than it is to do it with a Str weapon. You also get the advantage of quicker casts with Pyros/Magics with Dex, and often the Dex weapons have bleed and thrusting attacks (for that counter bonus). Not to mention less points go into Endurance which means generally more health or equal health with the added damage of a buff.

    The worst part of it is you don't even take a big damage penalty unless you're using the smallest of the Dex weapons, and when you use them you generally get an added crit/counter bonus anyway.

    Some also don't have a huge issue stunlocking as the second hit with most weapons will break poise on an average character since the nerf to the DWGR lowered the average poise of players.

    Take two skilled players and give one a Str weapon and one a Dex weapon and the safe money would be bet on the Dex guy.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Jansports on Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:08 am

    With my Large Club build at SL100 I have to hit someone typically Once well, twice if I'm being sloppy to win the fight. So considering it's entirely likely for me to win in a single good hit I don't feel Str is really so far behind Dex.

    With a Dex build at SL100 I'm looking at 4ish hits or more to win the fight. Each hit comes a little easier but none of the hits are nearly as dangerous. Mostly the weight issue is where I feel Dex weapons really pull ahead for the small advantage they do have. If Dex weapons and Str weapons weighed the same I think we'd see manymany more Str weapons being used
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:26 am

    I've won a lot of fights stacking poise and deliberately trading with the small hammers, going for stagger-stabs.  The big problem for that is ranged dex like the longer katanas and of course spears.  People with <50 poise are generally pretty easy to staggerBS for a ton of damage off of 27 str and no other scaling whatsoever, but you need to complement your build with other moves as str or your disadvantage will be picked apart.

    Somewhat interestingly, if a str build gets to 28 they can 1h an elemental mura, which is a great changeup weapon to menu swap due to its range, dead angle capability, and stunlock.

    The bigger, slower weapons are only good if you can catch someone who doesn't have a shield that can block them.  Something like a BKGA being 2handed is "block + poke" bait for piercing swords + spears, and a dex build can usually find room to at least menu swap one.  As the spear user you don't even have to risk roll BS; just wait for the attack while blocking and you have plenty of time to poke after the animation starts.  Throw in a few pokes otherwise without being too predictable and the big weapons really struggle.  Vs those rolling dead angle attacks, just roll away.

    IMO best you can do as str is just throw on a mace or reinforced club and poise trade to get stuns, else go for elemental pokes or a zwei if they have a counter-build to hammers.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:34 am

    If it comes down to playstyle, then my weapons of choice would have to be dex.  I've tried some big weapons, and the Great Club is the only one I've had luck with, but mostly because of the roll, then strike.  I have to move around fast and use quick hits.

    However, I'm winding down a bows-only playthrough which left me with 27 Str and 40 dex, so I'm going to try some quality weapons on NG+ and see how that goes.  Dragonslayer spear seems intriguing.
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Pilgrim34 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:23 pm

    The Dragonslayer spear is an outrageous weapon with its reach and 2h r2 attacks, not to mention its considerable attack power.

    Only drawback are its high stat requirements, unless you're a very high level you need to make quite a particular build for it. For most situations I would probably go for the Demon's spear instead.

    Oh and I definitely agree with these points about the effectiveness of dex weapons. I use them a lot although my true favourites are the quality weapons.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:37 pm

    I don't recall ever using it with a particular build, so I'm kind of curious now that I have a quality build in the works.  Does the scaling continue to improve beyond 27 Str and 40 Dex?
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:52 pm

    No you still max scaling THOSE at 27/40 if you 2h it, it's definitely a quality weapon.

    However, unless you also take Faith near 40, Demon's spear is actually stronger:

    http://mmdks.com/3enz

    They're both split damage too, so even there you're not falling behind using demon's.


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by drdrack on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:27 pm

    Ninja fantasy is the main reason why i prefer the latter...

    While i don't really know which is better, it is definably true that dex weapons punishes you far less then strength. (if you miss, if you are out of position)

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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:29 pm

    RANT wrote:dex.

    Especially if you're taking "quality" weapons out of the equation.
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Jansports on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:34 pm

    the DSS' strength is somewhat obscured by it's stats. It takes more stamina to perform a 1hr1 with it than with other spears, it does more stamina damage when blocked than other spears. And in my experience it does a bit more damage than other spears would do with it's AR. I haven't been able to test it as scientifically as I'd like but there is something about it that makes it different.
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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Pilgrim34 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:04 am

    I agree with this, the DSS definitely has something that I can't quite put my finger on. Perhaps it has something to do with its faith scaling?

    The damage output of both spears is identical (475) on a build that has 24 STR, 41 DEX and 26 FAI, if only there were a reliable way to test that!


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    Re: Strength VS Dexterity

    Post by Devokai on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:10 pm

    I think strength has it's merits and even more so w/ str than dex you have to use weapons that suit your opponent. Through my time using a str build for about 3 months I've come to know and promote the str weapon trifecta; the Large Club, The Great Axe, and the BK Halberd. Imo these 3 weapons cover every base of the str weapons pros and being able to menu swap accordingly mid fight will make playing a str build more fun and a lot more successful.

    Dex still rocks though, my "try hard" build is dex w/ a little pryo. Dex weapon's strength lies in the ability to punish w/e attack someone might throw and being able to throw your own with little risk of being countered, provided you're fast rolling at least.

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