Path of Havel the rock

    Share
    avatar
    Extofogeese

    Posts : 13
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-07-28
    Age : 25
    Location : Ireland

    Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Extofogeese on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:12 am

    Hi there, I'm new to the forum but have read through a few posts and felt I had to share an opinion on Havel. This is mainly speculation because I am travelling and don't have the game on hand to investigate further. I'm as open to being proved wrong as i am right so please tell me if there's anything I missed or misinterpreted.


    Havel was jealous of seath because of gwyns favour over him. He was not powerful enough to challenge seath so he contrived the occult plot as a means to gain the power necessary to take him on. Using his power as bishop of the wow, He got the power of he occult but failed to get he rite of kindling. The occult plot was discovered and seath set out to destroy every trace of its existence, including havel. However, Havel had another plan to take on seath. If he couldn't beat him, he would join him. He stripped himself of his armour and weapons in order to escape anor Londo undetected, and because he no longer needed them. He used his power of illusion to hide his gear and set out to accomplish his new task. After getting through sens fortress undetected, he made the foolish move to visit the church in the undead parish to say his final prayer for a long time, but he was spotted by a six eyed channeler. Forced to flee again, he made his way through the darkroot garden where he was ambushed by crystal golums. He did have ally's on his quest though, a hydra appeared in the lake nearby and destroyed the golums. Havel decided he would have to throw seath off his trail by creating another illusion, this time in the form of himself as a hollow, which he locked in the watchtower basement. Therefore, seath or anyone who tried to find him would believe that Havel had finally failed in his quest to kill the scaleless dragon. Havel was not so lucky though and was spotted by another six eyed channeller in the depths. This time seath sent his man eater shell so they could retrieve havels head as undeniable proof of his death. Upon reaching the base if blighttown, he found the great hollow and took no chances leaving 2 illusory walls to hide his tracks. After finally making it all the way down to ash lake, he was discovered by the clams. He dropped his great magic barrier leaving him defenceless. To his fortune, another hydra came to his rescue. He finally completed his journey and made it to the arch tree where he found the power that would allow him to destroy seath, the power to become a dragon like seath. Although he was the first to complete the path of the dragon, it would be many many years before he would reach his full potential, and gain the strength to destroy his arch enemy.

    I came across the theory if Havel being the stone dragon somewhere else and built upon it. The stone dragon is relatively young so I believe it's plausible it could be Havel. I could go a bit deeper into the occult plot and a few other factors but I think I've wrote enough for the moment.
    avatar
    Soul of Stray Demon
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2424
    Reputation : 39
    Join date : 2013-06-11
    Age : 21
    Location : Sitting next to Encore... "watching television"

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:01 pm

    Well I do think Havel and the stone dragon are connected, I think it's more logical that Havel felt regret for killing the dragons, (hence his hatred for Seath), and that's why he joined the path of the dragon. I do not believe though that he had ever achieved full dragonhood, for not even Logan was capable of that.

    avatar
    Wilkinson3424
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 2008
    Reputation : 71
    Join date : 2012-05-30
    Location : ( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º)

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:05 pm

    Evidence to any of this? This all seems like speculation to me. And alot of things in there are extremely questionable like havel knowing illusory magic, or getting help from Hydras.


    _________________

    "You never truly discover the nature of a weapon until you pretend to be it's former master"

    avatar
    Extofogeese

    Posts : 13
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-07-28
    Age : 25
    Location : Ireland

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Extofogeese on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:28 pm

    Like I said it is mainly speculation, especially the hydras, but its clear that someone set out to destroy any evidence of the occult plot, hence why there are so few signs that it even existed. My logic behind him having the ability to use illusion magic is mainly because of the illusory wall used to hide his gear, presuming it was him and not somebody else, which i find only slightly less plausible because if someone who wanted to destroy the plot found the club they would have put it in the painted world.To be able to accomplish the occult plot, a lot of deception would have been needed, which also points to the use of illusion. I can respect there is bound to be little evidence for the theory, as those who rule would not like such evidence to come to light. The closest connection I can find to show the hydras are linked are because in both areas you find them you can also find minions of seath, havels archenemy.
    avatar
    GrinTwist
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4185
    Reputation : 98
    Join date : 2012-07-22
    Location : New Londo Ruins, Illinois: Living in Tart's torture chamber

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by GrinTwist on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:57 am

    One thing pops up with this and that's with the description of the Watchtower Key's description, which indicates whoever locked the supposed 'Havel' in there was a friend of his. If that's the case we can assume that whoever is locked down there did have connections from the outside world previous to being locked down there. It's because of that I don't think that the 'Havel' we meet down there is an illusion.

    Also, I'd have to point out most illusionary magics came from Oolacile; a place that we are never indicated Havel would visit. Let's not also remember that the princess of Oolacile herself is never able to teach us magic that would help us create illusionary walls or illusions of ourselves. He would have to know someone that was already an expert that didn't hate him for Havel's distaste in magic.

    It's a nice hypothesis, but a lot of it doesn't seem to add up in my eyes.


    _________________
    Boring life? Join a cult.
    avatar
    Extofogeese

    Posts : 13
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-07-28
    Age : 25
    Location : Ireland

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Extofogeese on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:27 am

    I had forgotten about the watchtower key, I suppose the only direction I can take with that in mind is that one of havels men stayed behind, which is always as debatable as it could be Havel himself. My main idea behind the post was to try flesh out the connections of his gear, to the watchtower and the great magic barrier in ash lake. I just feel there are too many connections, especially considering seaths minions, for it all to be coincidence. Anybody looking for Havel would be satisfied after finding him in the tower, and wouldn't happen across the occult plot.


    _________________
    -Why Be An Actor, When You Can Be A Character?-
    avatar
    Encore
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4317
    Reputation : 28
    Join date : 2013-05-12
    Age : 20
    Location : Bracing myself for the Winds of Change, being supported by the towering pillars of my friends.

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Encore on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:11 am

    Or... It can be a coincident.

    I personally can not really see how it makes sense.


    _________________
    It is all like the repeating drip of thickening oil...

    Song of Myself
    avatar
    Aendron

    Posts : 8
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-06-28
    Age : 27
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Aendron on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:59 am

    I find the idea that Havel would use magic kind of bizarre. Havel despised magic, and even went as far as to invent a way to render it utterly useless against users of the Faith. The only indication for any of this is that Havel might have been involved in an attack against Gwyn- as occult weapons hurt the Lords and not Dragons; Dragon's are weak to lightning. This, most likely due to his own feverish disdain for Seath and a newborn sense of betrayal after Seath was chosen over him to carry part of Gwyn's Lord soul. 

    The only discussion here that makes sense is to question whether or not the man in the Watchtower was Havel. Personally, I believe it is and that the armour is only available elsewhere for gameplay reasons.
    avatar
    Soul of Stray Demon
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2424
    Reputation : 39
    Join date : 2013-06-11
    Age : 21
    Location : Sitting next to Encore... "watching television"

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:30 am

    The watchtower key itself is kinda suspicious. 
    The basement of the watchtower forms a stone
    cell. There are rumors of a hero turned
    Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend.
    For his own good, of course.





    "For his own good, of course," could mean quite a few things. First, It could just be that Havel was locked up for Havel's own good. Second, It could mean that Havel was locked up, for the good of the friend. (His own, referring to the friend.) Third, that "of course" part makes it seem like that it could be a lie, and instead Havel was locked up for another reason entirely. 
    And I'm wondering, does anyone know the reason why Havel hates magic?

    avatar
    Latitoast
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4520
    Reputation : 40
    Join date : 2013-04-03
    Age : 20
    Location : Rolling in circles while reading manga

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Latitoast on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:39 pm

    I don't think GMB can tie into any of this in any way, shape, or form, because Reah can sell us MB, the reason it's there could be as simple as somebody died there.

    And like it's been said, there's too much stuff here that's unreasonable and questionable, like Hydras helping Havel, him knowing Illusion magic, etc.


    _________________
    Gamertag:Leon Kennedy85   LoL Summoner ID, Skype Username, Steam ID:Latitoast
    Current Covenants:Messengers of Velka, The Exiled of Ariamis, The Darkstalkers

    avatar
    GrinTwist
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4185
    Reputation : 98
    Join date : 2012-07-22
    Location : New Londo Ruins, Illinois: Living in Tart's torture chamber

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by GrinTwist on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:30 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:The watchtower key itself is kinda suspicious. 
    The basement of the watchtower forms a stone
    cell. There are rumors of a hero turned
    Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend.
    For his own good, of course.





    "For his own good, of course," could mean quite a few things. First, It could just be that Havel was locked up for Havel's own good. Second, It could mean that Havel was locked up, for the good of the friend. (His own, referring to the friend.) Third, that "of course" part makes it seem like that it could be a lie, and instead Havel was locked up for another reason entirely. 
    And I'm wondering, does anyone know the reason why Havel hates magic?

    Possibly for the good of his friend which may possibly be Gwyn.

    This ring was named after Havel the Rock, Lord Gwyn's old battlefield compatriot.
    Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load  ~Havel's Ring Description

    We see in the chests at Anor Londo that Havel was in fact in position of an occult mace. With occult weapons being feared by the gods because they could kill them. A lot of people have come to the conclusion that Havel was a revolutionary against the Gods and was probably one of the people in a plot orchestrated against the gods. Possibly because of his connections with Gwyn during the war Lord Gwyn decided to lock Havel away in the tower rather than kill him.

    His hatred for magic is likely because Seath has such a fascination with magic. If there is any other reason for him to hate magic, I don't believe it's specified in any item description.

    Also, I'd like to point out that Havel probably wasn't the only user of Great Magic Barrier he did have his own group of knights that used his same armor. It might be possible that this corpse we find at Ash Lake could be one of his knights, not Havel himself.


    _________________
    Boring life? Join a cult.
    avatar
    SirArchmage
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1146
    Reputation : 85
    Join date : 2013-04-24
    Age : 21
    Location : 537 Paper Street Soap Company

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by SirArchmage on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:04 pm

    I would also enjoy to point out that I am fairly certain that the "For his own good, of course" part was not in the Japanese version of the game.

    If that matters at all.


    _________________
    :sign: I don't kill you in the most effective of ways. I kill you in the funniest. :sign:
    "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
    -Ernest Hemmingway

    The Heretic was here twisted Mwa haha
    avatar
    Soul of Stray Demon
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2424
    Reputation : 39
    Join date : 2013-06-11
    Age : 21
    Location : Sitting next to Encore... "watching television"

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:52 pm

    SirArchmage wrote:I would also enjoy to point out that I am fairly certain that the "For his own good, of course" part was not in the Japanese version of the game.

    If that matters at all.

     Not really, because the possibility still exists anyway.

    avatar
    Aendron

    Posts : 8
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-06-28
    Age : 27
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Aendron on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:53 pm

    GrinTwist wrote:Possibly because of his connections with Gwyn during the war Lord Gwyn decided to lock Havel away in the tower rather than kill him.

    How do you even kill an undead? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of being an undead? Sieglinde of Catarina even says how she's killed her father at least once in the past so beyond being painful, what good would it do to kill Havel? 

    Putting him in a confined space to rot and slowly go mad until could be seen as an act of kindness, but frankly it seems like a conscious act of torment to me. I suppouse there are better ways to torture people if you really want to but the inactivity, to spend hundreds of years going over your failure in your mind seems like a pretty good way even still.
    avatar
    Extofogeese

    Posts : 13
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-07-28
    Age : 25
    Location : Ireland

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Extofogeese on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:48 am

    My theory has been shredded away with astonishing speed ha I just like to believe that there is more to a character as awesome as Havel. I'll probably take a stab at reading between the lines concerning him again but I'll definitely take more time to consider my thesis next time. happy


    _________________
    -Why Be An Actor, When You Can Be A Character?-
    avatar
    TheMeInTeam
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1010
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2012-11-05
    Age : 34
    Location : 1337 Accuracy Way

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:20 pm

    Havel's ring description said his followers wore it, not him.  Also, his gear + club are found in Anor Londo.

    My takeaway from that is that Havel's location isn't known and that it's his follower in the tower, who needs the ring to move decently in that getup.

    Havel having involvement in ash lake seems a bit of a reach to me, but with what we're given Havel could have had any number of possible endings from being executed in AL, to making it to Ashe Lake, to going somewhere else entirely and still being alive.


    _________________
    There is no "I" in team.  There is no "we" either.  There is a me.
    Dolan would like you to turn around and pick up that item on the ground.
    avatar
    Soul of Stray Demon
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2424
    Reputation : 39
    Join date : 2013-06-11
    Age : 21
    Location : Sitting next to Encore... "watching television"

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:54 pm

    Even more so, that opens up the chance that the person in the tower was actually put there by Havel. That's a whole new alley of possibility opened up right there.

    avatar
    cerealaire
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 314
    Reputation : 2
    Join date : 2013-05-20
    Location : my house

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by cerealaire on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:26 pm

    his followers or follower must be fans with him,cant you smell what the rock is cooking thats probably why


    _________________
    Praise the Sun PRAISE THE CEREAL AND MILK

    misfit_hk

    Posts : 11
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-07-20

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by misfit_hk on Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:36 am

    odd speculation, but is it possible that havel placed his armor in anor londo hoping seath wpuldnt recognize him and went to the dukes archieves, hence the crystal knight you face? just a thought because im confused about him
    avatar
    cerealaire
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 314
    Reputation : 2
    Join date : 2013-05-20
    Location : my house

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by cerealaire on Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:45 am

    if you go to the wikispaces npcs go to havel i think thats all the information you need


    _________________
    Praise the Sun PRAISE THE CEREAL AND MILK

    Thxodore
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 86
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2013-07-14

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Thxodore on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:34 pm

    Whoa, whoa.

    The ring says that his followers wore it, but DOES NOT exclude him from wearing it, either. People wear items of clothing/jewelry that usually are copies of what the object of their adoration is.

    And his weapon, the Dragon tooth, is said to be a legendary.
    "Created from an everlasting dragon tooth. Legendary great hammer of Havel the Rock."
    Why would a follower have Havel's great hammer? It specifically says that the hammer is his.
    I believe because of these facts that it is indeed Havel inside the tower.
    avatar
    Soul of Stray Demon
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2424
    Reputation : 39
    Join date : 2013-06-11
    Age : 21
    Location : Sitting next to Encore... "watching television"

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:34 pm

    That creates a big problem then, why are there two copies of the dragon tooth?


    Thxodore
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 86
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2013-07-14

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Thxodore on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:40 pm

    I believe the set in Anor Londo is just for gameplay purposes. Imagine how OP it would be if you could get Havel's armor when you killed him? With the Master Key, you could get it in 5 minutes.
    avatar
    Seth Winternight
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 210
    Reputation : 6
    Join date : 2012-07-30
    Location : Panic Room

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Seth Winternight on Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:05 am

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:That creates a big problem then, why are there two copies of the dragon tooth?
    'Cause simply put, there's more than one tooth in a dragon's mouth. Mostly likely, the second one you find in AL is one of the other's crafted from the same dragon... Or even a different dragon altogether, considering they hunted many of them.

    Thxodore
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 86
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2013-07-14

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Thxodore on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:42 pm

    Don't get me wrong, that is entirely plausible. But then why, if there are a lot of weapons made out of Dragon teeth, did a soldier of Havel have Havel's legendary hammer? It seems pretty clear that it is a singularly legendary weapon based on the item description, don't you think?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Path of Havel the rock

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:45 pm