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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:20 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Yeah considering the current discussion this is very relevant:

    Serious_Much wrote:

    LOVE IT! +1 lol! 
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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:33 pm

    lol, i should use that more often, I've got 2 rep out of that picture already XD


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:19 pm

    hey its andres wrote:
    @Serious, I know as a mod you have a responsibility to these forums, however, I think it is very relevant to the problem that a certain popular Dark Souls site (probably more popular than the wikis or forums) posts save editing instructions in a very blatant manner. I honestly didn't know what the "Mega mule" was when I first saw that and after clicking on it I learned how to mod the save files.
    I understand your concern.  However, it is a clear violation of rule 7.  If the rule its self is of concern, then I suggest you take it up with E or Fex.

    EDIT: and guys, be careful. I already had to edit a couple posts that went into some detail of how to mod/hack this game. You can discuss the morality of it, just not any details of how to do it. This includes programs, or hints of techniques. This topic may be running its course.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Derpwraith on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:48 pm

    mankind wrote:someone who has no time to make a build is not an experienced player! this is just a shame for every dks fan. i made hundrets of builds with the bb glitch and when it got removed i made it by playing the game. megamule is just a piece of crap! it opens the door to all that **** we have now! gamesave modders everywhere.

    People don't have all the time in the world to make a character, I only use Dark Souls Mega Mule because PvE got boring for me.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Cabjoy on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:45 am

    I haven't read the WHOLE post in detail but all I wanted to add is this.

    One of the things that people don't seem to realise, or that I never hear people mention, is that the game is practically designed to allow you to make your build in 1 playthrough.

    If you plan your build, down to the armour and weapons, it's actually not that difficult to find what you want, boycott the parts of the game you don't need, avoid the bosses you don't want to fight and run through the areas you don't want to deal with.

    There is a slab or two if you want to upgrade your main weapons both to +15 (2 or 3 with dlc, can't remember), and if you're using unique items twinkling titanite doesn't take long to get. That way you can still upgrade your armour almost to max and put in the effort if you really feel the urgent need to max it. Again, if unique you'll have it maxed with twinkling titanite.

    The game is designed to give you what you need without ridiculous amounts of grinding, but you just need to plan and be smart to save your time. You don't need to upgrade 4 armour sets and 10 weapons per character for it to be viable in PvP.
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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:19 am

    Chunks and slabs are the big bottleneck, particularly chunks if trying to make more than one weapon.

    Twinkling titanite and souls are comically easy to attain in NG+.  It's a shame the other upgrade materials aren't so accessible.  There are solid options using twinkling titanite for any of str, dex, int, and faith, if limited.

    Dex:  Silver knight weapons
    Str:  Black knight weapons, arguably giant's halberd, giant smith hammer
    Int:  Velka's
    Faith:  Crescent Axe (grant if you're crazy lol)

    Unfortunately, other than Velka's and the silver knight spear most of these have limitations compared to standard +15 options.

    Armor, on the other hand, is great with twinkling titanite.  Giant's, Black Iron, Silver Knight, Black Knight, and a host of light armors + medium alternatives (Favor, Brass) dot the armor options.

    If only you could buy chunks like you can twinkling titanite.  I don't see a reason why not really.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Jansports on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:09 am

    Sure there are builds you can finish in a single playthrough but that isn't always the case.

    I have a 50faith sl100 build. It's main source of damage is WoG. 3 casts isn't enough 6 would manage in a perfect world where my opponent is slow and can't dodge. I'd like 9 and 12 is nice and comfy. The issue is that with my immense 12/12 str/dex elemental weapons and divine/occult are my go to. After the elemental nerf and with the DLC bosses the way they are simply pounding through Artorious' huge health and defenses on Ng++ to get past him and to the white slab I need in the chasm is time consuming. that fight alone could take 20 minutes. And EACH BOSS gets like this when you don't have the advantage of a scaling stat+buff.

    Getting multiple copies of spells is a time consuming chore, and honestly I'd use a bunch of different builds if PvE wasn't such a total pain at times.

    Not even mentioning that on say a quality build or some such I could have 2 weapons A shield A bow/Xbow and 4 pieces of armor that need 9 chunks and a slab each. And I'm not even taking huge advantage of quality builds capacity to have weapon options I'm only filling a single loadout. lets say I need the Claymore composite bow balder shield and a halberd. Lucky for me a few of my swaps don't use regular titanite and the Demon spear and the chaos rapier I keep for crits didn't slow me down too bad.

    With 3 slabs per playthrough without farming/getting lucky that means I need to mostly complete Ng++ OR get to the end of Ng+ and Farm 2 extra. Again quite time consuming.

    So saying that there is "no reason" to "save time" by using things such as MM or the old BB glitch is absurd. And if you could, without use of these things, finish this build in under 20 hours I'd be beyond impressed. http://mmdks.com/3d9s
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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Cabjoy on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:33 am

    Wow good point, I don't use casters so it's an issue I rarely have. I guess that was just a consequence of the style of build I use regularly. Sorry for the lack of insight!
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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:36 am

    ^ It's possible, but you'd need to be very fast, IE capable of winning a playthrough sub-3 hours fast.  I'm not sure I could break 20 hours on that build...probably if I don't have to stop and do content for slabs for the armor.

    IMO slap on a crescent axe (boost it with twinkling titanite is easy), grab the pyro glove + power within, and go spanking on bosses.  484AR even with split damage will handle most of the content with power within.

    Still, the difficulty of making such a build without a mule would otherwise be a barrier to most using it, and From set up the game such that it would be difficult indeed to attain.  They didn't HAVE to make the game such that you needed NG+ for multiple spell copies; they could have let players carry over saves on their own system or even build PvP characters from scratch as desired to go against other PvP characters who've done the same.

    The problem with the mule from a competitive standpoint (ignoring the hacks entirely which are impossible in the literal sense via the game itself) is that in practice it forces people who don't have it to use it or they'll be less competitive.  Player A can put even 6 copies of WoG on his build, but player B without the mule would typically need almost a full work week to match that, and that's just for one build.  There's a real practical barrier there.

    I can make a PvP build for SL 100 in about 5 hours pretty reliably, by abusing twinkling titanite weapons/armor and reserving my slabs for two weapons...armor almost always made with twinkling.  Some of the best sets in the game (including the much-hated giants) use it, and some good style sets do also.  However, such a build would have at most 2 copies of a given 1/playthrough spell.  More than that and it starts to get very time consuming.  Chunks and slabs are the worst, especially chunks.  You get very few per playthrough without farming and/or spamming quit/restart.  Demon titanite can allow one additional weapon without a ton of special effort too, if you go to NG+.

    So two +15's, 1 boss, and a bunch of twinkling stuff to round it out.  After that, things get really slow.  4-6 WoGs on a non-mule would be downright oppressive to get in terms of time investment, even if you ignored DLC.  Basically, it's like advocating that EVERYONE uses the mule.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:03 am

    I currently have 10 fully working PvP builds. The last two had their weapons given to them by my friends. Yes, farming titanite is a time consuming chore, especially if you plan to use a lot of weapons, such as having a quality build. That said, you can obtain the required stufff in other ways. In my case, I for example wanted Gwyndolin's set, but I didn't want to kill Gwyndolin to be a Darkmoon. Going to NG+ because of one armor set is crazy, so I asked for a trade. It doesn't matter to me if the person I traded with used MM, BB, or went and killed Gwyndolin in his game and bought the armor for me. I wouldn't know if I wasn't told and it makes no difference on the armor itself.

    However saving time doesn't justify existence of MM. You can look on many speedrun vids and see that the game can be completed in a hour, or less. You can run past most, if not almost all enemies and only kill boses. Even without farming, the game provides you with enough Chunks and Slabs to make a few weapons by yourself. For the rest, ask in the community. That's why Lord of Ash and Demon Slayer have their stores open in here.

    The only issue is spells. If you wish to have multiple stacks of the same spell, you have to go to NG+, or further, no matter what. I really see no problem in this. As I said, the game can be speedrunned through relatively quickly and easy. Not to mention that having three, or more stacks of WoG and DB is super annoying to fight, so you should face some annoyance in obtaining these as well. It's a fair trade.

    As you surely know, there was something called the BB glitch, which allowed your new character to start with all the inventory from one of your already existing characters, without losing any items from any character. This didn't work on spells though. Even so, FROM decided to patch this issues as they deemed it too game breaking. It really reduced the number of twinks in early locations of the game. Then people come with MM, which is even worse, because it also includes spells and you obtain the items out of thin air. In case of BB glitch, you actually had to obtain the itmes at least once to multiply them, with MM you just get them for free with absolutely no time investment whatsoever. From what I was told, the save itself is also modded in that you got all bosses alive, but can warp anywhere, so you literally don't have to do anything PvE wise and can go into PvP instantly.

    FROM won't patch this imho, because they're busy with DkS II and because they already made many patches thanks to Resonance Rings on PS3, which must've been expensive for them. Also, this is an issue involving a third party software, so perhaps it's not in FROM hands to deal with, but in the hands of Sony instead.

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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:50 am

    I don't think From can realistically patch the mule.  If they have good code they could detect hacked data in online play (stuff like impossible HP values or stamina) but when it comes to the existence of a save file any change they would make would just require hackers to find a way to break that one safeguard and then you'd need yet another patch.  Sony/xbox would have to find a way to prevent these saves being loaded onto the console, or detect them.  There are more plausible ways of doing that that make hacking much more difficult, but I'm not sure either cares enough to make a serious push to stop the plague of online cheaters.

    1 hour runs of this game is the stuff of upper-echelon speed runners.  A more realistic time for a typical playthrough for a good speedrunner is 65-80 minutes.  That allows a skilled player to make some mistakes and still complete it in that timeframe.  However, that skips all titanite slabs, doesn't farm chunks at all, gets 1 or 0 spell types, and only develops one weapon.  For a nearly perfect player a sub 2 hour run to pick up necessary things is more likely a fair estimation, meaning any 4x WoG build pushes 8 hours.  However, there are probably only a few handfuls of people out there that can do that.  For an experienced player not as well versed in pure speedrunning, you'd expect something closer to 15-20 hours.

    I still prefer that over muling though.  Allowing one guy to put in several days worth of playing time less (factoring multiple builds) to get the same stuff is a big deal; it's not practical to expect that investment from most players when they can do non-4x spell copy builds in 5 hours or less.  Because of that, to truly compete with the mule without spending gobs of time, you'd need to cheat and mule yourself...especially since mule builds often spam crystal weapons it's even worse.
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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:29 pm

    From what I understand spells require actual hacking to get more/unlimited castings and karmic justice, etc. This is why people with karmic justice typically have ?weaponname? and ?protectorname? or are just huge d-bags.

    And to Reim I have noooooooooooooooooooooooo problem with that rule. It's brilliant. I'm just saying the fact that a popular site posted information about the mega mule encourages this kind of behavior, and I think that it is definitely worthy of discussion.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by cerealaire on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:36 pm

    everytime i see a mega drueler its always on a new account and apparently they have 99 and max upgrades of everything available i was cooping this guy gave me 99 twin humanity and 99 of gwyns soul why bother hacking is it because they have no skill or is it because their afraid to face dark souls originally


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by densetsushun on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:50 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:I don't think From can realistically patch the mule.  If they have good code they could detect hacked data in online play (stuff like impossible HP values or stamina) but when it comes to the existence of a save file any change they would make would just require hackers to find a way to break that one safeguard and then you'd need yet another patch.  Sony/xbox would have to find a way to prevent these saves being loaded onto the console, or detect them.  There are more plausible ways of doing that that make hacking much more difficult, but I'm not sure either cares enough to make a serious push to stop the plague of online cheaters.
    Since we're talking about a decrypted, modded savefile, Sony could easily push an update to XMB that does a pregame check on whether or not the savefile is encrypted or not. What the system does next could be anything from preventing gamelaunch, overwriting the save with a blank one, or prevent online play. This would effectively make savefile modding useless on an unmodified system.

    Another, less realistic option is to calculate every possible realistic form a savefile can take(through MD5/Hash, whatever checksum) and save a database of that data, then check the saves whenever the system is connected to PSN. This would make it tedious and cause for needlessly long loading times though, as the saves would have to check in with the servers and it would take time for the servers to check the saves against every realistically possible modification. This would also mean that glitched saves would be caught into the filter too.

    Point is, it is possible for Sony or Microsoft to check against modded or decrypted saves, the question is just whether or not the companies find the costs justifiable.

    Edit: I hope I'm not infringing on any rules with this post, I can assure that I'm not posting on how to mod or hack anything about the game, savefile or the system, I'm just using needlessly technical terms to explain how feasible it is to implement a check system against modded or decrypted saves.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:52 pm

    I think the only appeal to modding (we'll just say save editing = modding for the sake of the argument) is time. I know that some people can only put in a few hours a week due to work, school, family, etc. Despite all of this, some of these same people have played since the game first game out and managed to make numerous builds all without the help of modding. The problem is that they would like to pvp and maybe use a build that's a bit unorthodox, but builds like that take a long time to complete.

    Now let me make one thing clear, there is a fine line between modding to make a build, and modding to screw with people. The moment you start popping divine blessings and flipping around you've crossed the line. I actually had some people try to deny it "i do it cuz its faster then estus," or, "im actually on liek ng +8 so i have alot of them." No. Just...no.

    The main issue with modding is that for every 1 person that just wanted to make a quick build there's maybe 4-5 people who give themselves an unworldly advantage. I'd rather no one mod and have everyone be forced to play, then have lots of mods but be able to go through the game quickly. Hopefully DkSII will achieve no modding and quick build creating:
    "At the same time, the goal isn't to make Dark Souls 2 more difficult, just more rewarding," he continued. "What we meant by accessibility was streamlining a lot of the so-called tediousness that was in Dark Souls to make sure we can trim the fat and directly deliver the pure challenges and emotional aspects we want to communicate."

    Also, time=/=difficulty. I could run through the game in under 2 hours (even shorter for ng+), but it would take me a lot longer to make a build with 3 castings of WotG.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:31 pm

    Someone with a MM account, has no advantage over someone who is playing through the game the right way. At least at high levels, there is no difference. And people say "well at low levels the mules have OP gear." I have a SL 1 character in which i've earned all the end game gear, and guess how i got it? From playing through the game at SL 1. Even at low levels, the mule still has no advantage, besides how much hard work and time it takes for SL 1 playthroughs. 

    I understand what people are saying. But i destroy mules all the time. A non-muled account with an experienced player behind it, will always beat a muled account against a new guy. Period.

    Everyone can talk about ethics, and morals, and they'd never cheat, and that MM is cheating. Welcome to Dark Souls. Dark Souls has always been, and forever will be about doing whatever the f#&$ you want. When i first started playing, i'd flip sh&# when i'd start a new game and someone would invade me with crazy gear. Oh well.

    Only thing you can do is, when you kill a MM account, message them and say, "You have all the gear/items in the game and still can't win?" And that's all.

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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:37 pm

    hey its andres wrote:And to Reim I have noooooooooooooooooooooooo problem with that rule. It's brilliant. I'm just saying the fact that a popular site posted information about the mega mule encourages this kind of behavior, and I think that it is definitely worthy of discussion.

    The fact is though that site is only there for people to use if they want. It's for easy to do PvPing, that's the site's only purpose. Here is different, and we don't encourage it since we like to embrace more than just the PvP community here. That is evident with our extensive archives section, just for one example.

    I like to think this place as having a more moral approach to it. Accept people use it and allow discussion about the pros and cons, but don't encourage it as it can (and often does) lead directly the problems within the game such as griefing and modding/hacking.

    It's the same policy as we've had with every other glitch such as BB and dragonhead glitches or other hacks/mods. For the simple fact that it CAN cause harm to the online community is why we should be cautious in promoting it.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:48 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    hey its andres wrote:And to Reim I have noooooooooooooooooooooooo problem with that rule. It's brilliant. I'm just saying the fact that a popular site posted information about the mega mule encourages this kind of behavior, and I think that it is definitely worthy of discussion.

    The fact is though that site is only there for people to use if they want. It's for easy to do PvPing, that's the site's only purpose. Here is different, and we don't encourage it since we like to embrace more than just the PvP community here. That is evident with our extensive archives section, just for one example.

    I like to think this place as having a more moral approach to it. Accept people use it and allow discussion about the pros and cons, but don't encourage it as it can (and often does) lead directly the problems within the game such as griefing and modding/hacking.

    It's the same policy as we've had with every other glitch such as BB and dragonhead glitches or other hacks/mods. For the simple fact that it CAN cause harm to the online community is why we should be cautious in promoting it.

     

    It's just the fact that the planner, in which is one of the most posted things on this site, has the link right up top it. If someone wants the mule, they're gonna get the mule regardless of if they see it on the forum or not. Just like hacking, it's gonna happen regardless.

    But, i completely understand and respect the rules of the forum.

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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:20 pm

    It should be impossible to make a distinction between a mega mule player and a normal player. Should
    It's just that the whole prospect of save editing treads a very thin, and gray, line between normal pvp and hacking/modding. A lot of people will simply slip over to the other side and not come back.

    I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what I'm saying about "the website." I have a hunch that because of how much traffic the site gets from new and experienced players, a lot of players have found out how easy it is to save edit and therefore do it. Out of these players, the ones that (offense intended) suck at pvp are way more likely to do things such as infinite health, infinite stamina, karmic justice explosion, etc. What I'd like to discuss is whether or not you guys think that this indirectly led to the explosive amount of hackers in the game.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:26 pm

    hey its andres wrote:It should be impossible to make a distinction between a mega mule player and a normal player.

    The only way to tell that i've figured out, is by their trophies/achievements. If they're using a muled account, most people will have all of the weapon trophies (i.e: chaos, lightning, enchanted, occult etc.) but nothing else such as the trophies you get from ringing the bells.

    Most people pick their weapons, level up, and go straight to the burg and have a total of 2 trophies but are at SL 120.

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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:28 pm

    Yeah, that and the fact that they will do things like try to parry my whip twisted 


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:06 pm

    hey its andres wrote:Yeah, that and the fact that they will do things like try to parry my whip twisted 


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:42 pm

    Seriously, I fought a guy who had a parrying dagger, buckler, and hornet ring on. He tried to BS me, he had the ring of fog on, and when that didn't work he just kept trying to parry. I actually got the bleed from the notched whip. After he was about dead he rolled away and took out shotel...despite the fact that I had a notched whip in one hand and a pyro flam in the other. Needless to say I destroyed him lol! 


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:12 am

    Well considering hackers- yes it being cause a massive trend in hackers. However, this isn't to say it created them on ps3. But it's undeniable that mm very much opens the door to that problem and others and worsens it, as if gives people a platform to go off.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

    Post by Leet on Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:41 am

    Serious_Much wrote:Well considering hackers- yes it being cause a massive trend in hackers. However, this isn't to say it created them on ps3. But it's undeniable that mm very much opens the door to that problem and others and worsens it, as if gives people a platform to go off.


    In my opinion, it might just be a coincidence. I can't really go into detail but i can't find a page that explains having to do anything with Mega Mule and hacking. Just people complaining about it calling it a hack, which is it not.


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    Re: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU!

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