Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Aendron on Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:10 am

    I'm new to the forums, a lurker since long, so humour my opinion for a moment. For those of you wondering where the information is coming from - seeing no sources provided - there are some videos from the SDCC demo (As seen here) as well as some second hand analysis (For instance by Seraphim17) that suggest that Toggle Escaping is completely out from their experience with the game engine. Other reveals from these experiences include nonexistent poise (Although the E3 videos showed a character tanking hits so it might just be for the demo) stats and a much slower pace of gameplay which will most likely change the pace and viable tactics for PvP as well. There's also some information about backstabs and parries that might interest some of you. 

    Before I get into my opinions, and like I said you'll have to humour me since this is my first post, I'd just like to comment on how surprised I am that people seem so vitriolic over toggle escaping. Now, I have no gripe with people who are annoyed with fishers, or any player who learn one "advanced" tactic and then exploit it ad nauseum over the course of a fight (like reverse roll backstab fishers for instance) but are these really negatives of the engine? 

    Toggle Escaping served as a means to compensate for the broken stun locking system that quite frankly engaged full on auto pilot after the first poise break with some of the typical stunlock weapons, like the murakumo or the zweihander. Yes, I'm aware that you're able to roll out of most stun locks, but the fact that you're not able to escape all of them meant that toggle escaping actually offered unintentional balancing. It's even incredibly easy to exploit people who relied on the toggle-parry method by just fighting unlocked and using dead angles as you're able to change your attack's trajectory almost an entire second into the attack animations for most of these weapons. Unless you're just spamming R1, at which point you deserve to get spanked anyway. doh 

    As a person using 0 poise, toggle escaping was a means to stay competitive and aggressive and I'm sad to see it go. That said, there's no indication that it will even be necessary this time around. Since the jury is still out on poise, and the gameplayer is generally slower this time around there's some merit in suggesting that instant death stun locks might not be a thing anymore. With the better part of a year left to go it's anyone's guess how representative this demo is of the final product. 

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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:17 am

    I'd remove infinite stunlock, but getting stunlocked for 2-3 hits seems very reasonable to me. It won't kill you unless the weapon is buffed, you have low Vit, or it's landed into a bs (bs being on a completely unrelated topic though). Excluding usage of Dead Angles, getting a hit with a weapon that can do 2-3 hit stunlock is usually pretty difficult and if you get hit and subsequently stunlocked, it's your own damn fault and you should eat that damage, instead of escaping it with an exploit and thus averting the punishment that your mistake deserves.

    People are like "Meh who cares the guy has a Zwei, I can Toggle out of it and bs the dungpie out of him anyway" and then they play like suicide bombers. No regard to their safety and defence, because why should they, if they can just Toggle out of everything. This makes weapons that rely on stunlocking, like Hammer class absolutely useless.

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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Aendron on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:39 am

    I'm not sure I agree with you. Moves that can stunlock for 2-3 hits are typically in the greatsword class, and they're fast enough that I wouldn't count them as a risk-reward weapon as some of the strength weapons can be. 

    Like I said, there are ways to counter a toggle escape, and not just with the Ultra Greatswords. If getting stunlocked is your own fault, then getting punished for spamming R1 is also your own fault - especially since it actually takes a degree of skill to toggle and time a parry; more so than stun locking an opponent does. As for toggle-bs, there are ways around that as well. Maybe this is a greater issue on the PS3 than it is on xbox, as I've never had these experiences you have. I have seen people toggle, but not nearly as often in the fashion you describe. 

    Also, hammer class weapons are good for more things than just stunlocking. Depending on which you use, they can be good for trading blows (Leo Ring), bleed build up, stamina consumption, dead angling -- you might even say that you have a whole array of strategies available to you beyond just stunlocking enemies for 900+ damage.
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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:57 am

    last I checked the greatsword class can't stunlock for crap anymore unless you use a running attack into a 2h r1 (or the flamberge r2) and that's the end of the combo right there... anyway, parrying is supposed to be the counter to r1 spam, i.e you parry the first hit or tank/dodge a hit then parry, none of this "oops I got hit in the face with a huge sword, time for a free critical", toggle escape just ends up rewarding players when they screw up, as the natural thing to do when you've landed a stun is to continue swinging even if only for one more hit, thus due to the toggle the other player is perfectly set up for a parry or free to step around and backstab the stun user.

    I do agree with you on hammers though, stun isn't their only attribute, they hit hard and are fast, for str weapons. plus their really light so the make good back up weapons.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Aendron on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:21 am

    Well, I'm not about to say you're wrong, as I've only anecdotal evidence to go on, but greatswords have been able to stun lock just nicely for 2-3 hits (including the first hit) whenever I use them or whenever I get hit by one and forget to toggle in a panic and just mash to roll away.

    Also, it's easy to get hit on accident or when misjudging the distance and you accidentally get stunned. Being able to quickly duck out of that can make a fight really exciting and unpredictable. I can appreciate that it's annoying to get backstabbed, but just because there's a tryhard approach to toggle escaping doesn't mean that toggling - or what it allows - is all bad. If you think so, you might as well throw backstabs, magic, pyromancies and just regular rolling under the same bus as they can all be abused to ridiculous effects. 

    Besides, it's not that hard to poise stack in this game. People who only want backstabs or parries can just use poise to tank the first hit if they're so inclined. Frankly, toggle parries and toggle backstabs are not that bad, and they've never been an issue for me. I've seen some players try one or the other, and I welcome the challenge and the need to mix up my tactics.
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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm

    Actually greatswords still have infinity stunlock. At least I can confirm it on Claymore and MLGS. Their 2H R1s got nerfed, but 1H R1s still have it. Other than that I know only of Reinforced Club, perhaps Murakumo (not sure as it usually kills people too fast) and UGSs to have infinity stunlock. Given the damage of weapons like DGA, DGH and DGM, I believe it would be safe to reduce stunlock of these weapons to max 2 hits (which still does more than 1000 damage). With removal of Dead Angles and Toggle Escape, these weapons would be still deadly, but they wouldn't be a one way trip to the bonfire once you're hit and they would also not be able to ignore shields, thus they would have to worry about getting parried, instead of just ignoring this threat by simply unlocking and turning around.

    Also, as EWGF's test showed, stunlock capabilities are dependant on upgrade path and upgrade level. Like in the case of Man-serpent Sword, which can do a three-hit combo on +15, but two-hit combo on any other upgrade path. While +15 does the most damage and can be buffed, it also requires the most stat investments to fully utilize and as such is fair to have the ability to stunlock longer. Lastly. All these weapons, hammers, greatswords, UGSs, they are all slow and we all have access to huge invincibility frames at any time thanks to rolls, which enable us to escape and evade these weapons.

    That's why I think that removal of infinite stunlock would make the removal of both Dead Angles and Toggle Escape a viable option.

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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Phoenix Rising on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:51 pm

    Yeah they removed toggle escapes, but it appears they also made greatswords extremely slow. No stunlocks means no reason to toggle. Sounds good to me.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:36 pm

    Small hammers.
    1h greatswords
    mura
    zweih/greatsword (none of the others do it)


    All others (that I remember atm at least) only combo a couple times, if at all, before the opponent can escape.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:40 pm

    I can definitely agree on non-infinite stunlock,  it gets old when people toggle on the first hit, so 2-3 hit stuns with large weapons would be preferable... if toggle escape is removed heck we haven't even seen a weapon large than a greatsword in use yet, who knows how the mechanics have changed... hell I should leave this section alone unless something is 100% confirmed, there's just not enough to go on.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:13 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Small hammers.
    1h greatswords
    mura
    zweih/greatsword (none of the others do it)


    All others (that I remember atm at least) only combo a couple times, if at all, before the opponent can escape.

    Not all small hammers do it.  Even on ones I've seen people claim do people have rolled away without toggling.  It happens way too much for people to be carrying 2 copies of a weapon and/or shield just to toggle, and even then it's distinctive.  I saw none of that, just people rolling out of reinforced club and mace after a few hits.

    The only ones I've seen do it consistently are Zwei/Greatsword (there's a youtube video proving these 2 have faster swing speeds than the others) and Mura (been on the wrong end of this one a few times too).  I haven't tried to stunlock off 1h greatswords very much so that might work too.  It also might work on 1h hammer swings, but it doesn't on 2h r1's for the mace or reinforced club...though you get enough hits + BS that it usually doesn't matter.

    IMO however toggling out of a high-damage combo isn't really better than toggling out of an infinite lock; often these both result in death without the toggle.  I won't miss it, even though I use it now.
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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:45 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:I was merely telling them that their arguments are flawed
    Whenever I see Forum Pirate post, this is what he's doing. You haven't changed over this past year, my friend.

    Forum Pirate wrote:All others (that I remember atm at least) only combo a couple times, if at all, before the opponent can escape.
    Considering that, in my experience, most str weapons kill in a few hits, it's safe to say that they stunlocked me to death, since they stunned me, I was locked, and thus died before I could escape. 

    Now to actually post about this thread... I don't think it'll make much of a difference. PvP will be a WHOLE new thing, as well as most PvE. I'm looking forward to the newer type of feel in the dodging/blocking/magic aspect of this game. Blocking takes more stamina. There are less i-frames. And magic/sorcery requires stamina these days. I honestly doubt PvP will be nearly as fast paced, and thus easier to balance.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:59 pm

    JoeBroski09 wrote:Considering that, in my experience, most str weapons kill in a few hits, it's safe to say that they stunlocked me to death, since they stunned me, I was locked, and thus died before I could escape. 

    This should be what strength weapons do, especially considering their weight and stamina costs. I would rather everyone try to stunlock than everyone dance around with katanas and rapiers. If you get caught in an r1 spam it's your own fault Shrug . Some strength weapons are ridiculously slow, great axes for example, and yet people will complain when they get stunlocked to death.

    Not saying you were complaining Joe.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:41 pm

    hey its andres wrote:
    JoeBroski09 wrote:Considering that, in my experience, most str weapons kill in a few hits, it's safe to say that they stunlocked me to death, since they stunned me, I was locked, and thus died before I could escape. 

    This should be what strength weapons do, especially considering their weight and stamina costs. I would rather everyone try to stunlock than everyone dance around with katanas and rapiers. If you get caught in an r1 spam it's your own fault Shrug . Some strength weapons are ridiculously slow, great axes for example, and yet people will complain when they get stunlocked to death.

    Not saying you were complaining Joe.
    Yeah. I feel that this is what dark souls 2 will be all about. Or at least more viable. In DkS2, there are less i-frames, and less i-frames means less dodging, because spamming circle won't help anymore. Considering blocking and sorcerers and pretty much everything else requires more stamina, then big weapons will be much more liable. 



     Dark Souls 2 will most likely be more about keeping safe distance than being aggressive, fast, and dodging. This begs the question "will that mean ranged will be OP?" and that is no. Just reliable in PvP. Especially since archery will involve movement.


    Last edited by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:22 pm

    Also note that bows are almost as slow as strength weapons.

    I hope that DkSII is a bit "slower" (I'm using that term lightly). Sometimes pvp in DkS is ridiculous when It's just a guy in light armor flipping around.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:04 pm

    hey its andres wrote:Also note that bows are almost as slow as strength weapons.

     In the current Dark Souls or in Dark Souls 2?


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:06 pm

    most str weapons won't stun for 2 or 3 hits even, and can be rolled out of at hit 1 if the player is quick (or spamms dodge.)

    the str based ugs are all like that, the axes are all like that, the great hammers don't even pretend to stunlock.

    The msgs is really the only str weapon that will stunlock essentially forever (and only in 1 hand,) and according to meln the small hammers only get a few hits in before the opponent breaks free. That is the vast minority of str weapons that stunlock, in any capacity.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:10 pm

    .. but you just said that most strength weapons combo at least a few times.

     Now you're saying that almost all strength weapons don't combo at all. Next it'll be that strength weapons don't really hit anything. They just tickle to death.


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:18 pm

    no, i said "only combo a couple times, if at all."


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:20 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:no, i said "only combo a couple times, if at all."
    Did you go into Dark Souls and test to see which ones stunlock? Or did you look up a youtube video of each strength weapon's ability to combo? If you did not to any of those things, then how do you know for a fact that your second post, the revision, is so true, when, originally, you seemed unsure?


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    Re: Dark Souls II to not have toggle escape?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:23 pm

    I have tried most of them (though not all) but the ones I've tried will not in most cases.

    I err on the side of caution however, as I have not tested the ability of every strength weapon to stun lock (for any number of hits.)


    Most will hitstun bs, but thats tough to toggle out of anyways.


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