Critical Hit damage

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    Sentiel
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    Critical Hit damage

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:52 am

    I have a question.

    After seeing this video.



    I believe that Rapier does more damage than DST and decided to do this test myself.

    The actual numbers:

    Video results:
    DST +5 - 1422
    Rapier +15 - 1408

    My results:
    DST +5 - 1447 (NG) / 1394 (NG+)
    Rapier +15 - 1491 (NG) / 1386 (NG+)

    The uploader and I used the same enemy. The sword&shield hollow in Parish.
    While he had 14/40, I had 16/40 in stats.

    My questions:

    1. Why are my results different from the video? Is it only because of two points in Str?

    2. The Rapier was clearly stronger on NG, while DTS was the stronger one on NG+. This makes no sense to me. Why does the damage between the weapons change on NG+?

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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:13 pm

    Rapier had a D in str and DST has E so i imagine the 2 would make a diff.
     
    2. I'm not too sure, because i'm not well versed on the critical calculations of the game. The only thing i can think of is that the rapier would lose more from the base damage in actually points(% loss would be the same on  both) from the NG+ defense increase and when the multiplier is brought in it's affected more. I'd bet if you went to +2 the gap would widen.


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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:18 pm

    That makes sense.

    Now, for the reason why this thread is in the PvP section.
    How does this affect PvP damage?

    I think that it was LunarFrog who said that DST does the most critical damage out of all Dex weapons, but I still get more from Rapier +15.
    Is this affected by the Str such in the above case, or perhaps by the armor the opponent uses?

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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Devokai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:14 pm

    Regardless of how defense and the multipliers effect crits in PvP. My general rule is, that if you have more than 20 str, rapier is the way to go without a doubt, below that you can use either or because in my opinion, the rapier is just as solid of a back up/spacing weapon as it is a crit weapon. Also shield pokes are such a valuable tool in some situations.
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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:16 pm

    Devokai wrote:Regardless of how defense and the multipliers effect crits in PvP. My general rule is, that if you have more than 20 str, rapier is the way to go without a doubt, below that you can use either or because in my opinion, the rapier is just as solid of a back up/spacing weapon as it is a crit weapon. Also shield pokes are such a valuable tool in some situations.
    That's the thing I dislike about DST.
    Outside of Criticals, the weapons is useless.
    It's R2s are a joke and while R1 spam can do some decent damage if you know how, Rapier is just way better. Plus there's Leo Ring.

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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:19 pm

    With 40/16, the rapier has a base of 324 and the dst has 253. I'd be interested in the critical calculation, how 253 goes to 1447 etc.

    For the dst has one thing over the rapier, the kick. I lost count the amount of times i forgot about the no kick and got parried.


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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Devokai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:30 pm

    Having a kick is only useful if you can capitalize on the stun and the only way that's happening is if you have an off hand katana or faster weapon or 45 dex combustion. Perhaps the R2 might catch them with toxic as they roll, but that's really not a viable practice imo.
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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:33 pm

    Kick into bs, or a fast attack is a good thing for sure.
    But that's why I use something that can kick with the Rapier, like Longsword, or Claymore.

    I kick people a lot, but I almost never intend to bs them afterwards. If I do, switching to Rapier is fast enough to kick with a weapon, switch and land a bs.

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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Devokai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:39 pm

    That's exactly the set up i run on my quality build, clay/rapier in both main hand slots.
    Such an all rounder team. PLenty of other 6 weight weps I use but claymore's not nicknamed ol' reliable for nothing.

    Also on the topic of kicks. I'd love for someone to do a video of stamina drain on the more popular shields for kicks (buckler/grasscrest/silver knight) just to give some of us a better understanding of when and when not to be aggressive after a successful kick attempt.
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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:43 pm

    Just messing around there in the parish, rapier+14 and DST+5 with 36/44, rapier=1474 and dst=1467.


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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:21 pm

    Kickstabbing from the front isn't possibly usually.  If they're circle-strafing you can get it.

    Quite a few weapons can follow up after a kick stagger though, even things like spears/striaght swords.  I'd rather take a swipe with a straight sword than rapier poke following a kick, unless you're geared towards a leo bonus or something and it applies on kicks...dunno.

    Unfortunately, almost no str weapons can follow up after a kick stun, excepting the hand axe most likely.  Everything else they have time to block or roll away.

    Rapier is a great weapon overall.  With elemental its criticals hurt and you can fit it on most builds.  I like the estoc just as much if not more due to the range, and my preference comes down to range vs weight usually.  Estoc crits are weaker but they still hurt, but the range is just what the situation calls for when turtling vs spear flippers or big weapons looking for hit stuns.

    Also on the topic of kicks. I'd love for someone to do a video of stamina drain on the more popular shields for kicks (buckler/grasscrest/silver knight) just to give some of us a better understanding of when and when not to be aggressive after a successful kick attempt.

    Me too.  I have some experience-based feel for it and go for kick stamina drain ---> attack quite frequently especially with hammers (which also break guard easily), but knowing exact break points could really turn someone from an above average fighter into a very dangerous one, since they'll know how many attacks their opponent can do and when they can/can't combo after a kick + block etc.  I win a lot of fights straight up already because I have a feel for this, but understanding it perfectly would be amazing.


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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:27 pm

    Myself, I prefer Rapier.
    While it's short, it is faster than Estoc and it's R2s have the range of SKS R1s, which is just amazing and do more damage than R1s of it's longer brothers. Not to mention having almost no recovery frames.

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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:39 am

    For me, the rapier has always outdone the DST (in PvP). But, the GC beats the rapier (sometimes the rapier + HR too).


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    Re: Critical Hit damage

    Post by Jansports on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:05 am

    I'm still personally somewhat Partial to the Bandit Knife for crits, like the DST it can kick and it has to upside of also being able to apply bleed pressure should that be something you end up needing. While I wont ever discredit the strength of a well used piercing sword (I've been filled with many a hole by velka's) Losing the kick is just so rough for me to deal with. It's always been a big part of my repitoire since almost every weapon can use it, it's very easy to become familiar with when/where to use it ((because it's always an option, excepting a few weapons))

    I Sort of run into the same issue when using curved swords, if the GT could kick it would be an absurd piece of work. I do think a lot of this also comes from my habit of leaning almost every dex build I can afford the ~7 points to get to 45 dex and keep a GC ready.

    More on topic! I think the damage difference is both from your Str being a tad higher AND also the way criticals are calculated. Obviously as defense goes up (Ng+ // better armor)) the base damage of the weapon (AR) is less a factor than the modifier (if any) present on the weapon. This is likely do to some where in the math for the calculation the higher defense targets negate (perhaps) a percentage of the AR rather than a flat amount, meaning the rapier gets "more" of it's AR negated than the DST does comparatively, and the higher crit modifier pushes the DST crits past the rapier, likely further and further away as defense values increase.

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