Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

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    BrotherBob
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    Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:35 pm

    I've never played Demon's Souls, but have watched countless videos of playthroughs. I'm wondering what the lore-based reason for BP enemies is. Why do they appear as more powerful versions of regular enemies when your World Tendency becomes more black?


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:43 pm

    Thats precisely it- world tendency is darker, so the creatures in that world grow stronger. Presumably BPs are simply that next step of being powerful from tendency

    to be honest though, they really need a lore reason? just throw them in and make us cry silly


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:44 pm

    Because Scraping Spear and Baby's Nail.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:06 pm

    I've got a Skyrim mod that adds BP phantoms in Beta testing that I plan to share on the Skyrim Nexus once I've got everything up to par with what I'd like. Skyrim Nexus users tend to like some lore-based explanation that helps to explain the mod. While I keep testing, I'm trying to come up with some sort of an explanation.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Derpwraith on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:45 pm

    Black phantoms are humans possessed by the souls of demons.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:55 pm

    Derpwraith wrote:Black phantoms are humans possessed by the souls of demons.

    He means black phantom mobs derp


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Hue on Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:11 pm

    Maybe, like dark souls gravelords, phantoms so stronk that they invaded your world...?
    Then again i've never played DeS


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by twigsterxd on Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:55 pm

    Tendancy plays a HUGE part in everything. BP's, (whether human or npc), are stronger because your wt or ct is either pb or pw. BP = blk or blue phantoms in my explanation. If your world is pure white, the areas get easier. If it's pure blk, all enemies are tougher. Your ct helps you as a blk or blue phantom. PBCT makes you stronger as an invader, while pwct makes you stronger as a blue phantom. There really is no lore behind it. You take rydel in 3-1, with pwwt he appears as a blue phantom. In pbwt, he appears as a blk phantom in which you can kill for a weapon. There is no lore as to why he becomes a blk phantom, he just does. Maybe it's because after his death, he still can't leave the area.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:05 pm

    So, in other words: "open for speculation". That'll actually help, since I can be a bit more liberal with interpretation. I'm actually really interested by what was said by twigsterxd: NPCs might become BPs after death.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:15 pm

    A key part of Black Tendency is the repeated death and failure of the hero (us). To me it just always felt that, as the hope of the kingdom, our deaths are greeted by the increased strength of evil. As that increases it bolsters those looking to stop you. White tendency does the opposite. Basically everything is intertwined. The more you lose the more they gain


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:53 pm

    @skarecrow: That's pretty much how I would interpret it. The more chaotic and hopeless your world becomes, the more powerful the forces of evil. Combine that with what Derpwraith mentioned about possession by demons and I think that we've got a pretty good explanation.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:28 am

    Derpwraith wrote:Black phantoms are humans possessed by the souls of demons.

    Not entirely true.  In Demon's Souls, the definition of what makes a Demon is in the act of absorbing souls.  It's why the Maiden in Black, being a Demon herself, is the only being capable of infusing the player with the collected souls.  It's also hinted at by the Crestfallen Warrior in that should you absorb too many souls, you'll stop being a human and become a Demon yourself.  Absorbing souls to strengthen oneself is an inherently demonic act.  The more you absorb, the more like a Demon you become.

    All that to say, Black Phantoms are not possessed by souls of Demons.  Rather, they are something of a half-demon.  They've become powerful through the act of absorbing souls but are also now hungry for more power, AKA more souls.  This is at least the logic behind the players being Black Phantoms (when you kill a host in a successful invasion, the "returning home" message even calls you a Demon).  It's possible that this theory translates over to normal enemies as well, meaning that Black Phantom mobs are simply more demonic versions of normal enemies who prey on the weak to satisfy their hunger for souls.

    EDIT: The only strict example of possession by a Demon's soul is in the Old Monk fight, where regardless of your intentions in joining with others the Old Monk has specifically developed an understanding of and power over phantoms to the point where he can hijack your phantom and force you to do his bidding.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:10 am

    The lore behind Black Phantoms is they some evil-*** niggas who got so evil they turned into demons. Now they want yo souls. Mobs work the same way as NPC's/Players except they aren't humans.

    Black Phantoms straight-up demonic, too. None of that half-demon ****, nuh-uh.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Walter_White on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:44 am

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Derpwraith wrote:Black phantoms are humans possessed by the souls of demons.

    Not entirely true.  In Demon's Souls, the definition of what makes a Demon is in the act of absorbing souls.  It's why the Maiden in Black, being a Demon herself, is the only being capable of infusing the player with the collected souls.  It's also hinted at by the Crestfallen Warrior in that should you absorb too many souls, you'll stop being a human and become a Demon yourself.  Absorbing souls to strengthen oneself is an inherently demonic act.  The more you absorb, the more like a Demon you become.

    All that to say, Black Phantoms are not possessed by souls of Demons.  Rather, they are something of a half-demon.  They've become powerful through the act of absorbing souls but are also now hungry for more power, AKA more souls.  This is at least the logic behind the players being Black Phantoms (when you kill a host in a successful invasion, the "returning home" message even calls you a Demon).  It's possible that this theory translates over to normal enemies as well, meaning that Black Phantom mobs are simply more demonic versions of normal enemies who prey on the weak to satisfy their hunger for souls.

    EDIT:  The only strict example of possession by a Demon's soul is in the Old Monk fight, where regardless of your intentions in joining with others the Old Monk has specifically developed an understanding of and power over phantoms to the point where he can hijack your phantom and force you to do his bidding.

    ^this

    together with Saints comment - they are not half-demons, they are demons!

    Always thought that this is the main theme behind demons souls - you need those souls to travel through Boletaria. Even if you want to fullfill the quest from the monumental to protect humantiy and let her bring the old one to slumber again, you already are a demon hungry for more souls. The "good" ending is only a futile try to keep your humantiy, you also could walk over her dead body it changes nothing - you are lost in your hunger for more souls from day one.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Dogwelder on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:09 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:A key part of Black Tendency is the repeated death and failure of the hero (us). To me it just always felt that, as the hope of the kingdom, our deaths are greeted by the increased strength of evil. As that increases it bolsters those looking to stop you. White tendency does the opposite. Basically everything is intertwined. The more you lose the more they gain

    This is a really cool and fitting take on it. Nice one.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:12 pm

    Yeah, I think it explains that the area minions are spawned by the area bosses, this is why killing an area boss significantly whitens World Tendency. Everytime you die and lose souls that power is used to respawn enemies and buff them up in the case of NPC BP's. They'll even start brooding primordial Demons with your power.

    The Ending is quite the same for DaS as well though. Become a monumental to protect the world from another inevitable old one invasion = Relight the flame until it needs to be relit. Accept the Old One's power and become his HNIC drive the world into darkness = Do not light flame, drive world into darkness..


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Walter_White on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:06 am

    Undiscovery wrote:Become a monumental to protect the world from another inevitable old one invasion

    never saw any sign of that, what brings you to the idea, that you become a monumental? Have i really missed that after more than 20 playthoughs (i think i've done more)?

    I think it's the same theme as the BP theme - by consuming souls i become a demon. If i lose my souls another demon grows stronger. And i'm caught in this as the player, no matter what i do it will go on and i'm lost to a fate as a soul hungry demon


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Undiscovery on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:20 am

    Walter_White wrote:
    Undiscovery wrote:Become a monumental to protect the world from another inevitable old one invasion

    never saw any sign of that, what brings you to the idea, that you become a monumental? Have i really missed that after more than 20 playthoughs (i think i've done more)?

     It doesn't specifically say the player will, however you're doing the same mission as the monumental and he explains how he became a monumental with the rest of them by doing the same thing. 
    In-game dialogue;
    Monumental-"We contain'd the Old One inside this Nexus, and banned the soul arts. 
    Finally, we became Monumentals; half living sentinels of the fabric of reality. Alas, the othe Monumentals have perish'd, and only I remain. (Text: By the power of the Monumentals, the four sealed Archstones have been released.) Now it is your turn. You must lull the Old One back to Its slumber, and seal it away for all eternity. If not, the Deep Fog will absorb all that we know. Have you the strength to accept this mission?"


    By lulling the Old One back to sleep your embarking on the Monumentals Mission. Ineither case though they lack all consequence of emotion so are much like demons. They are arseholes that's for sure.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:21 pm

    Walter_White wrote:never saw any sign of that, what brings you to the idea, that you become a monumental?

    Really? In 20-something playthroughs how do you possibly miss this?

    EDIT: I don't know how to embed timestamped videos into the forums, so I had to just do a link straight face


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:52 pm

    Thanks, your posts are all giving me terrific ideas for what I'll write as lore for my mod. Now, if only I could work out the last little kink in it...


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:01 pm

    Well in demon's souls, the black phantoms are linked to the demons having a greater power over the land (your/good's decreased influence, due to your death) As the demons power increases, it's effect on the area increases- hence black phantom enemies spawn as a result.

    To me, it would be idea in your lore ideas to write in something about the demons of elder scrolls- the daedra or the daedric gods/princes having an increased influence over tamriel, causing black phantoms to appear.

    That okay?

     Not gonna lie this mod would sit far better in Oblivion than it will in skyrim silly


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:21 pm

    Unfortunately, I don't own Oblivion. sad 


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    :pharis: They slaughtered our men, our brothers, our sons... The dead cry out to us for justice. On their Souls, I swear to you: the gankers who took them from us, who have brought us such pain and sorrow... we will find them. They will come to the Forest. We will not rest until their blood flows into this very ground.
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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by BrotherBob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:03 am

    The file's up here. The lore I decided to go with is there. Thanks to all of you who took time to contribute. I invite you to check out the mod and try it out if you have Skyrim for PC. Any further suggestions to improve the lore explanation is appreciated.


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by VaDoom on Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:48 am

    Sometimes I get the message "The Demon was destroyed" when I kill a player's black phantom, and sometimes only "Black Phantom Slain".
    Is this a glitch or do "The Demon..." message appear under specific conditions? (something like the player is in NG+, or maybe he has chosen the "bad" ending? Or maybe a black phantom veteran that have already killed a lot of humans? Or he has black ct?)


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    Re: Lore Reason for Black Phantoms?

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:52 am

    I presume you get that message after using the stone you receive from the bad ending, and the blakc phantom is from using the stone from 3-1


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