Toggle escaping(please explain)

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    jimmyc0341
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    Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:46 pm

    So I've watched a ton of DkS vidsfrom some of my favorite PvPers and they all mention toggle escaping which I've heard about but really never understood how to do it, when to do it, and basically what it is. Can any of you DkS vets please explain to me how to execute it and when to execute it?


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:49 pm

    You do a toggle escape when you're stunlocked into a combo by something you can't get out of like a great sword, curved greatsword, or ultra greatsword.  It allows you to roll out of the combo when you normally wouldn't be able to.  As for how you do it, I dunno.  Never felt like it was worth my effort to learn it.

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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:52 pm

    it would be nice to learn howto though. I figured it was for escaping being stunlocked but nobody really went in depth on how to do it. I don't know if you're supposed to item switch, weapon switch while in the process of being stunlocked. I seriously have no clue


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:54 pm

    When you push (most commonly) left on the directional pad, you "toggle" to your other weapon/shield/etc.

    This action interrupts the stunlock and allows you to either parry (if you've toggled to a shield or barehand) or roll away.

    The swapping to a different piece of equipment has either I-frames or hyperarmor (not sure which) and this is what allows said actions.

    However, if timed incorrectly, you'll simply switch to a different weapon and continue to get pummeled.
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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:58 pm

    Animaaal wrote:When you push (most commonly) left on the directional pad, you "toggle" to your other weapon/shield/etc.

    This action interrupts the stunlock and allows you to either parry (if you've toggled to a shield or barehand) or roll away.

    The swapping to a different piece of equipment has either I-frames or hyperarmor (not sure which) and this is what allows said actions.

    However, if timed incorrectly, you'll  simply switch to a different weapon and continue to get pummeled.

     So basically the timing has to be absolutely perfect for it to work?So it's hit or miss.Have you tried it before Animaaal?


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:46 pm

    -No, the timing doesn't have to be perfect.

    -Yes it can be hit or miss.

    -Yes I do it, you might have too by accident lol.

    This video at 1:39 is an example of how it looks.  You said you've watched a ton a vids, but I can't find a video explanation of the science behind it either, nor do I know how to explain it that way.

    I have 2 builds with 7-9 poise and rely on it, or at least SHOULD rely on it considering...but I'm admittedly rusty.  I'm just saying a poise heavy build will obviously rely on toggle escaping a lot less if at all.

    @ 1:39...you'll also see the delay, in other words the "escape" happens before the "toggle", or at least on screen.




    Again, as far as Dark Souls Science video explaining the specifics, I apologize I didn't see one, but didn't look very long either.  There might very well be one.

    Hope this helps, happy

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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:04 pm

    I should also add that this has to be done BEFORE you get hit, saying "interrupts stunlock" was poor wording on my behalf.

    And I took perfect timing literally, I assume there's a window.
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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by FinPeku on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:48 pm

    Toggle escape works because the weapon toggle animation has higher priority than the stun animation. You get stunned, but if your timing is correct you will change weapon instead of being stunned. However, some stun animations have higher priority than the weapon toggle animation, meaning some attacks can't be toggle escaped. For example: Zweihander R2, Great Club 2h roll attack. Most attacks can be toggle escaped though and I highly recommend practicing it. 

    EWGF's video with toggle escape (starting around 6:00), watch all his vids if you haven't:
    Spoiler:




     


    Last edited by FinPeku on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Emergence on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:50 pm

    I make pretty liberal use of it on my 0 poise mage. To be honest, it's use is pretty habitual now as a carry over from Demon's. Saved me from push lock dual kats many a time.


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:53 pm

    @Fin

    Such a better explanation and video +1.
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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Leet on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:35 pm

    I've been practicing toggle escapes for a while now.A lot of times after i get stunned and i toggle, i'll just switch weapons and get stunned again.

    I was just looking around for a better explanation. Glad someone was thinking the same thing.

    I also use right on the d pad, instead of the left. Which i don't think it matters?

    I didn't realize you toggle AS you're hit. I've been toggling after i'm stunned. Maybe that's why i fail at it.

    I get so caught up in trying to toggle escape by the time i actually get out of the stunlock (IF i get out of it) i'm all bujumbled when it's all said and done and have to regain my footing.

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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:31 pm

    TooLeet wrote:I've been practicing toggle escapes for a while now.A lot of times after i get stunned and i toggle, i'll just switch weapons and get stunned again.
    Are you mashing the D-pad or something? Just tap left or right once, you'll swap as soon as you get hit.

    TooLeet wrote:I also use right on the d pad, instead of the left. Which i don't think it matters?
    Correct. The only difference it makes is which weapon you swap out. Which might matter if you want to swap into a parry or something.

    TooLeet wrote:I didn't realize you toggle AS you're hit. I've been toggling after i'm stunned. Maybe that's why i fail at it.
    Typically you toggle after you get hit, then wait until you get hit again.

    The way this works is that if you swap your weapon JUST as you get hit, then for some reason the swap animation overwrites the stun animation. Since the swap animation is much faster than most weapons' hitstuns, you escape the stunlock.

    Normally this would be really hard, since you have to time the weapon swap JUST as you get hit by the attack, but thanks to input buffering, that isn't the case. The way traditional swap escape works by inputting the weapon swap while you're in the middle of hitstun. The input buffers until the end of the hitstun animation. When you get hit again, the stun animation ends (to be replaced by another stun animation) and at this point the buffered swap input is executed at the exact timing needed to do a swap escape. Because you buffer the input until you get hit, you actually still get hit by (at least) two attacks from the stunlock.

    However, you don't need to be in a hitstun animation for this to work. You can do this while in any animation, so long as you get knocked out of the animation. For example, you can input a weapon swap while in the middle of an attack, and when the attack animation ends, you'll swap your weapon. If you get hit while attacking and you are stunned, then you'll immediately cancel the hitstun into a weapn swap.


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:15 pm

    FinPeku wrote:Toggle escape works because the weapon toggle animation has higher priority than the stun animation. You get stunned, but if your timing is correct you will change weapon instead of being stunned. However, some stun animations have higher priority than the weapon toggle animation, meaning some attacks can't be toggle escaped. For example: Zweihander R2, Great Club 2h roll attack. Most attacks can be toggle escaped though and I highly recommend practicing it. 

    EWGF's video with toggle escape (starting around 6:00), watch all his vids if you haven't:
    Spoiler:




     


     Yes I've seen that video but I don't think I listened clearly enough. As for the other vids from PvPers they always mention it but never really go into detail. EWGF's vids are really good and they actually do go in depth. So are Str. weapons harder to toggle escape from then?


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:17 pm

    undefined wrote:However, you don't need to be in a hitstun animation for this to work.  You can do this while in any animation, so long as you get knocked out of the animation.  For example, you can input a weapon swap while in the middle of an attack, and when the attack animation ends, you'll swap your weapon.  If you get hit while attacking and you are stunned, then you'll immediately cancel the hitstun into a weapn swap.
    So could this be used for WoTG's stun as well?


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by FinPeku on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:53 pm

    jimmyc0341 wrote: So are Str. weapons harder to toggle escape from then?

    No, not really. Those two attacks I mentioned are just exceptions. 


    jimmyc0341 wrote:So could this be used for WoTG's stun as well?

    You can toggle escape WoG, yes.


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Leet on Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:17 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    TooLeet wrote:I've been practicing toggle escapes for a while now.A lot of times after i get stunned and i toggle, i'll just switch weapons and get stunned again.
    Are you mashing the D-pad or something?  Just tap left or right once, you'll swap as soon as you get hit.

    Not mashing. I just didn't know the timing of it.

    I didn't know the whole point of it was to override the stun animation.

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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Leet on Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:19 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Typically you toggle after you get hit, then wait until you get hit again.

    The way this works is that if you swap your weapon JUST as you get hit, then for some reason the swap animation overwrites the stun animation.  Since the swap animation is much faster than most weapons' hitstuns, you escape the stunlock.
     
    Which one is it?

    You said typically you toggle after you get hit and then you said toggle as you get hit.

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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:58 pm

    either. He already explained how input buffering (you hitting toggle during the stun is automatically delayed until the stun ends) means as long as you press toggle at some point, you'll probably be able to escape the stun on the next hit.


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Leet on Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:44 pm

    Word.

    Makes sense.

    It's pretty much like riding a bike once you understand it, which i did not before this thread.

    I could get away with it but i didn't know exactly how i was doing it.

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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:36 am

    TooLeet wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:Typically you toggle after you get hit, then wait until you get hit again.

    The way this works is that if you swap your weapon JUST as you get hit, then for some reason the swap animation overwrites the stun animation.  Since the swap animation is much faster than most weapons' hitstuns, you escape the stunlock.
     
    Which one is it?

    You said typically you toggle after you get hit and then you said toggle as you get hit.

    You have to toggle as you get hit. If you're in a stunlock, you press left or right on the d-pad after the first hit. This causes your character to toggle just as the second hit lands.


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by ublug on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:34 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:However, you don't need to be in a hitstun animation for this to work.  You can do this while in any animation, so long as you get knocked out of the animation.  For example, you can input a weapon swap while in the middle of an attack, and when the attack animation ends, you'll swap your weapon.  If you get hit while attacking and you are stunned, then you'll immediately cancel the hitstun into a weapn swap.
    This swap method feels so broken though. I have two characters who are only built for exploiting this, one have two rapiers in the right hand, the other have two dark hands in the left. I usually cache the swap when I know I can't poise through the trade, and it will often reward me with a trade and a punish (or escape). The reason for two equal weapons in the same hand is for it to go unnoticed against most players, especially when I toggle escape a whiff.
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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:51 am

    ublug wrote:This swap method feels so broken though.
    It is.


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:30 pm

    ublug wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:However, you don't need to be in a hitstun animation for this to work.  You can do this while in any animation, so long as you get knocked out of the animation.  For example, you can input a weapon swap while in the middle of an attack, and when the attack animation ends, you'll swap your weapon.  If you get hit while attacking and you are stunned, then you'll immediately cancel the hitstun into a weapn swap.
    This swap method feels so broken though. I have two characters who are only built for exploiting this, one have two rapiers in the right hand, the other have two dark hands in the left. I usually cache the swap when I know I can't poise through the trade, and it will often reward me with a trade and a punish (or escape). The reason for two equal weapons in the same hand is for it to go unnoticed against most players, especially when I toggle escape a whiff.

    Anybody who knows how a toggle escape looks can tell you did it because you move a certain way (not to mention the timing of the escape is consistent after the hit stun).  You are paying a very real price to be able to do this; namely your secondary slots being identical.  Instead of packing a shotel or a weapon that can do more than poke/punish, you instead have identical weapons.

    Still, the ability to mostly ignore hitstun and BS is obnoxious :p.  I'd probably start tickstabbing or going for staggerstabs pretty quickly vs a player I know is toggling out a lot, since IMO it's the best answer.
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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:14 pm

    I'm still a little confused on the timing cuz some people say toggle before you get hit, other people say after you get hit and other people say either or doesn't matter. I will try it anyways and practice since that's all I really can do to get it down pat. I haven't been playing DkS as long as you guys/girls and you all are already familiar with toggle escaping and I've only just recently heard about it. I appreciate all the feedback and glad you guys/girls were willing to explain it to me. Thank you


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    Re: Toggle escaping(please explain)

    Post by Leet on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:16 pm

    jimmyc0341 wrote:I'm still a little confused on the timing cuz some people say toggle before you get hit, other people say after you get hit and other people say either or doesn't matter. I will try it anyways and practice since that's all I really can do to get it down pat. I haven't been playing DkS as long as you guys/girls and you all are already familiar with toggle escaping and I've only just recently heard about it. I appreciate all the feedback and glad you guys/girls were willing to explain it to me. Thank you


    Saturday-Saint wrote:You have to toggle as you get hit.  If you're in a stunlock, you press left or right on the d-pad after the first hit.  This causes your character to toggle just as the second hit lands.


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