Bad Form in PVP

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    TheMeInTeam
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:28 pm

    gesture is showing your opponent a weakness that he/she can exploit. Some perceive it as a formal beggining of a duel, just like in some martial arts. However, that is something reserved for duels, organised with the help of RSS and Dragon Eye.

    Gestures are something done because you feel like them.  However, one must accept the risks of using them before their target is dead happy.  I've invaded people and had great fights with them, invaded them later and they bowed.  I was willing to take the risk to acknowledge the fun previous fight, but would not have begrudged them attacking me during it (of course, I also wasn't close enough for that happy).

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by BrotherBob on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:37 pm

    Sorry, I still don't think that I was clear enough. My argument was not that invaders should be able to indiscriminately use gestures. I actually agree with many of the points that were put forth, such as that an invader (and hosts) should always be careful and gesture with some sense of caution.

    Sentiel wrote:The invasions, forces the host to engage in PvP, without his consent and as such is not bound by any form of rules, or honor code. Regardless of the location, if you have been invaded and have no interest in engaging in the actual duel, but just clear the location, or just went sightseeing, you have every right to dispose of the invader as you see fit.

    I simply wanted to point out random invasions should not always be seen as inconveniences for the host, and that random invasions of questers' worlds is different than random invasions of a prospective-PvPer's world. In situations where a random invader invades a player who wants to duel, there often is a "form of rules, or honor code". Of course, you've clarified this, so this post is rather moot. But, I just wanted to clarify what I was saying, so there wouldn't be any mis-communication.

    EDIT: I've just thought of something else. The use of the RSS doesn't guarantee an honour duel. Especially if placed in the Forest, the RSS can give a ganker quite an advantage because they know where you will spawn and use this to your detriment. I've even seen instances in the Kiln (which I still hold to be one of the better PvP areas). One of my favourite instances of this occurred about a month ago. I invaded at the Kiln as an SL25. I ended up in the world of an ~SL700. We bowed and he took two swings and I died. I invaded again, this time he bowed but didn't attack. An RSS invader appeared and I ran off to the side to allow them to fight. The host didn't bow, and started attacking immediately. This happened a couple more times, where the host summoned Red Phantoms and "dishonourably" killed them. He eventually turned to me, bowed, and turned his back to me. I didn't understand at the time, but he wanted me to kill him. Since I clearly was not understanding that, he equipped a Symbol of Avarice and eventually killed himself. I think that this paints a rather ironic picture: the host was courteous to me (a random invader) but was not to RSS invaders.


    Last edited by BrotherBob on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Gaxe on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:45 pm

    It's rude, but not really cheating or anything, sometimes I'll do that when I'm not in the best mood. In all honesty though I believe you should bow back if your opponent bows, it's just more friendly to do so and everyone leaves happy.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:47 pm

    When I'm a Darkwraith, I don't bow, typically. But, I do let them bow. Sure, attacking someone who is bowing is legit, but it only makes you look like a jerk. If you act like a jackwagon, then expect people to tell you that.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:03 pm

    reim0027 wrote:When I'm a Darkwraith, I don't bow, typically.  But, I do let them bow.  Sure, attacking someone who is bowing is legit, but it only makes you look like a jerk.  If you act like a jackwagon, then expect people to tell you that.

    I love darkwraithing, but bows are things I only give when I've truly enjoyed the experience, most typically after winning a tough duel (I'd bow after losing a close but exciting match also, but corpses have trouble doing that).  I think it's much better as a post-match gesture than a pre-match pretense, both because it carries less risk and somewhat ironically, still carries more actual meaning IMO.

    I have no problems with darkwraiths swatting people who bow to them if they invade (or backstabbing), but I don't like doing it.  If I wanted an easy advantage I'd gank.  That's not as fun for me.  I like invading up, killing people 2x my level, beating gankers, etc.  IMO DS benefits from the existence of gankers; far too many people aren't cut out for true 1v1 PvP and aren't willing to invest the time to make it so.  There are ways to nearly guarantee true 1v1 PvP, such as picking unusual locations and using RSS in them with people you know, but that's only a small part of the souls experience.

    My 1st PvP area, and still by far my favorite, is the much-maligned forest big grin.  You can get everything there, and you get it with virtually no expectation coming in.  Host gifts, 3 man ganks, naked punching matches at random, bow only duels, people swapping to the same weapon you have, giantdads, themed ganks with ridiculous builds (both "tryhard" and just sillyness like 2x smough with dual punching gloves), there's just so much variety, and if in FH the ability to set up the otherwise extremely rare 2v2 opportunity...and the invaders actually can't damage each other!

    Unfortunately, it makes it hard to get hate mail.  I really can't believe I don't get more hate mail for staggerstabbing people and killing them outright.  Of all the things so many people consider "cheap", I've literally never been called out for staggerstabbing someone with a hammer.  Surely SOMEONE dislikes that tactic :p?
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Sneezer on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:49 pm

    Slit their throats before they slip a knife between your ribs.

    I usually roll my eyes at invader invaders who bow, and I'll usually give hosts I invade love taps with whatever gets the message across if they decide to be silly and bow.

    If they insult you because you act in a way they perceive to be immoral, you either ignore them, go on about what invading is, or tell them a simple phrase; "welcome to Dark Souls."


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Pilgrim34 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:55 am

    Viciou wrote:
    or the dragon slayer bow shot that puts them over the side of a cliff as they reach for said item?  We gonna call that bad form too? It doesn't seem very sportsmanlike to me. 

     This is an example of exceptional trolling, not bad form. You can't complain at all if somebody snipes you off a ledge with a greatbow!


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Automancer on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:58 am

    I never bow during random invasions or duels anymore. Recently after i got back in to DkS, i got a japanese player constantly bowing at me even though i didn't return it. Why? Because i already knew what he was going for and i happened to be right. Mid-fight when i got the guy near 10% of his HP, he started BS fishing with the hornet. But what alerted me was his/her armor setup. MoM>Havel chest>Hollow leggings.

    I know not many will do that but majority that stack poise like that, are usually aiming for one thing.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:11 am

    Poise is excellent in general though because it dictates the battle to a degree.  There's more to poise than just fishing, thout it can and is used for that.

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by crbngville2 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:48 am

    Sentiel wrote:A gesture is showing your opponent a weakness that he/she can exploit. Some perceive it as a formal beggining of a duel, just like in some martial arts. However, that is something reserved for duels, organised with the help of RSS and Dragon Eye.

    The invasions, forces the host to engage in PvP, without his consent and as such is not bound by any form of rules, or honor code. Regardless of the location, if you have been invaded and have no interest in engaging in the actual duel, but just clear the location, or just went sightseeing, you have every right to dispose of the invader as you see fit. If the invader showed you an opening by doing a gesture, it was his/hers own mistake and should be punished by an attack, if you feel like doing so. If the invader feels the need to do a gesture before starting a fight, yet is unable to secure his vicinity against potentional attack, the invader is entirely to blame for this.

    As an example. I got invaded in Anor Londo while questing with two phantoms. We cleared the entire area from the first elevator up to the Solaire's bonfire. Since I couldn't use the bonfire, I decided to do the whole location in one go, even though I had my last Estus Flask. I didn't ask the invader to invade me, nor did I had any interest in risking my progress in the area only because of some self made sense of honor this invader follows. As such, he got Hornet backstabbed while he was bowing and insta killed by me.

    "You, sir, have no manners."
    "Don't invade my world then. I did not summon you for a duel."
    "Invasions are a part of the game."
    "So is Hornet Ring. Goodbye."

    Dark Spirit Knight Kirk and King Jeremiah does not bow to the player when they invade them either.
    Nor does Lautrec and his little ganker troupe. big grin

    ^this^ +1 to Sent


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:51 am

    crbngville2 wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:Wall of text.jpg

    ^this^ +1 to Sent
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