Bad Form in PVP

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    Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:14 pm

    So I got into a debate with a Darkwraith over windows live after he invaded and I killed him.  He invaded my world, bowed and the second he bowed I switched to 2 handed, dashed as fast as I could toward him and started going to town.  I got about 1/4 of his hp and the fight continued for quite a while.  Of course I get a msg from him afterward about how it's unfair and cheating etc..  Really?  Unfair?  Cheating?
     
    Hacking hp and stats is unfair and cheating.  Beating on a Darkwraith who chose to bow to you instead of fight might be bad form but that's it.  And coming from a Darkwraith I found this ridiculously funny.  Who are the people throughout the entire game that backstab while others are fighting NPC's?  That randomly invade, regardless of skill level in random areas killing noobs and whoever else they run into?  O yea, Darkwraiths...  They are the friggin poster boys/girls of bad form.
     
    At least with a Forest Hunter 9/10 times you know it's coming.  You know the second you step into that Forest area that it's comin.  Most of the time there's 2-3 players waiting on it and counting on it and maybe even just sitting there farming them.  With Darkwraiths, yea, it's somewhat predictable, I know which areas are more active than others but I've been invaded every damn where.  Everywhere..  So a Darkwraith telling me that I'm "cheating" because I attacked him while he bowed does not exactly invoke feelings of sympathy or remorse from me. 

    What do you guys think?  I mean when anyone invades me, it's go time.  Dispense with the pleasantries and let's get down to business.  You invade my world, you come for my souls, I didn't ask you or invite you here, so you know what?  You bow to me and I'm stabbing you right in your Darkwraith face.  That's what you get. 
     
    Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I missed the unspoken code of honor that we all abide by where no one who is in the middle of gesturing can be attacked.  I'll tell you though, I've run into plenty and I MEAN PLENTY of people that must've missed that one too.  I love the one's who drop an item on the ground to bait another player out for the backstab, or the dragon slayer bow shot that puts them over the side of a cliff as they reach for said item?  We gonna call that bad form too? It doesn't seem very sportsmanlike to me. 

    Anyway, feel free to take whichever side you want.  I think you bow to an opponent at your own peril, if they stab you while you're doing it then it's your own fault.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:27 pm

    You're generalising. Dark wraiths are individuals, who make choices, just like you.

    Anyways, do what you want, but don't be surprised when people tell you off for doing things they don't like, whatever those things might be.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by SirArchmage on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:33 pm

    Depends. If you are in a common pvp spot, where it is obvious that both the host and invader want to fight, then you should not attack while bowing. Bowing is standard form that you want to fight. If it is a random invasion though, when you are just trying to get through the level......Feel free to slaughter that fool. Random invasions have no rules.

    And Darkwraiths aren't the only ones doing this. Forest hunters and Spirits of Vengeance(people know I have a special hate for Spirits of Vengeance) also do things like this. In fact, Darkwraiths are typically easier to fight then Spirits of Vengeance as Darkwraiths are almost always lower level then you. Probably with more skill, min-maxed stats and better weapons, but still lower level.

    Though usually I only bow when I am a far distance away, or they are bowing. People don't usually hit me while I am bowing oddly enough(probably because they respect the fact that I always host by myself and am usually cosplaying) but it has been done, and I have done it on accident a few times(I always drop a humanity for them if I do).

    But really Darkmoons are more likely to do this in my opinion. I have met quite a few that honestly believe that if you have acquired sin for them to invade you that you deserve to be the victim of every bad tactic they have. I have been backstabbed once while bowing from a Darkwraith, but have been backstabbed 3 times while bowing by Spirits of Vengeance.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by BrotherBob on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:36 pm

    First off, just to counter something you said about Darkwraiths being the "poster boys/girls of bad form": I usually find that Darkwraiths have the best manners despite the game's lore about them. Forest invaders and Darkmoons in Anor Londo usually just rush in and fight because they're usually up against gankers; so, no bowing there. Thus, apart from DragonBros (who are small in number), I'm quite sure that Darkwraiths generally have some of the best form of all invaders.

    So, to talk about your main point: No, you didn't do anything wrong. You played the game the way you wanted and the Darkwraith did the same. He did make the grievous mistake of bowing close to you (and probably not using the "Proper Bow"). When people bow, it means that they want an honour duel. Again, smart players will bow somewhat far away so that they can't be punished should the opponent not want the same. Personally, I bow to hosts, not because I particularly want an honour duel, but because I want to give the host a chance to bring out their A-game when they fight me. For me, bowing is a courtesy to one's opponent. My opponent's bow signals that they are ready. It is possible that the Darkwraith wanted an honour duel and was upset that you didn't give that to him. Perhaps, he bowed a courtesy to you so that you could ready yourself and was upset because his good intentions caused him to be attacked prematurely.

    Overall, there's nothing wrong with what you did in my eyes, but views differ among different cultures/sets of beliefs. A Japanese player once told me that he considered buffing, Giant's Armor, backstabbing, and not bowing to be unacceptable in an honour duel.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:48 pm

    SirArchmage wrote: Darkwraiths are almost always lower level then you. Probably with more skill, min-maxed stats and better weapons, but still lower level.

    wrong, unless you're inbetween pvp levels, and in a pvp area, they're no more likely to invade more than 10% up than dms are to invade more than 10%+10 sl's down. (not terribly likely, though it happens.)

    At least in my experience, dw's are just as likely to be slightly above my level as below.



    Also, its horribly unfair to judge any given invader by the actions of any other invader. I'm fairly considerate, I never attack when someone is bowing (though I'd be within my rights to do so) and I often offer advice to people I beat handily. I'm merciless in battle, but that doesn't mean I have to be a prick about it.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:51 pm

    Bashing Darkwraiths wasn't really the point of my post... although now that I read it again I can see why people are taking it that way.  My point was that if you engage in pvp and you decide you're going to bow then it is your fault that you take dmg during a gesture.  Not the other person's fault because they don't want to watch the "bow gesture" for the millionth time.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:54 pm

    Thats horrible logic. Its not my fualt I murdered her judge, I was just tired of hearing her talk.

    You are responsible for your actions. I don't much care what they are, but I'm going to call you out if you're attempting to use lame justifications to make it sound better, to yourself or others.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:55 pm

    You lost me...  sorry.  I don't know what your point is now and I think you've gone from commenting on the original post to just wanting to attack me personally because you disagree.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:00 pm

    A gesture is showing your opponent a weakness that he/she can exploit. Some perceive it as a formal beggining of a duel, just like in some martial arts. However, that is something reserved for duels, organised with the help of RSS and Dragon Eye.

    The invasions, forces the host to engage in PvP, without his consent and as such is not bound by any form of rules, or honor code. Regardless of the location, if you have been invaded and have no interest in engaging in the actual duel, but just clear the location, or just went sightseeing, you have every right to dispose of the invader as you see fit. If the invader showed you an opening by doing a gesture, it was his/hers own mistake and should be punished by an attack, if you feel like doing so. If the invader feels the need to do a gesture before starting a fight, yet is unable to secure his vicinity against potentional attack, the invader is entirely to blame for this.

    As an example. I got invaded in Anor Londo while questing with two phantoms. We cleared the entire area from the first elevator up to the Solaire's bonfire. Since I couldn't use the bonfire, I decided to do the whole location in one go, even though I had my last Estus Flask. I didn't ask the invader to invade me, nor did I had any interest in risking my progress in the area only because of some self made sense of honor this invader follows. As such, he got Hornet backstabbed while he was bowing and insta killed by me.

    "You, sir, have no manners."
    "Don't invade my world then. I did not summon you for a duel."
    "Invasions are a part of the game."
    "So is Hornet Ring. Goodbye."

    Dark Spirit Knight Kirk and King Jeremiah does not bow to the player when they invade them either.
    Nor does Lautrec and his little ganker troupe. big grin

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:01 pm

    Vicious wrote: Not the other person's fault because they don't want to watch the "bow gesture" for the millionth time.
    This is what I was commenting on.

    Wether you want to deal with it or not is irrelivant, and cannot be used as a justification to do whatever you want to anything you don't want to deal with.

    If you want to attack people who bow, fine, you're within the rules of the game, and thus your rights, to do so, but you cannot justify it with "because I don't want to deal with it."

    You are responsible for your actions, reguardless of your feelings at the time.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:04 pm

    Sentiel wrote:A gesture is showing your opponent a weakness that he/she can exploit. Some perceive it as a formal beggining of a duel, just like in some martial arts. However, that is something reserved for duels, organised with the help of RSS and Dragon Eye.

    The invasions, forces the host to engage in PvP, without his consent and as such is not bound by any form of rules, or honor code. Regardless of the location, if you have been invaded and have no interest in engaging in the actual duel, but just clear the location, or just went sightseeing, you have every right to dispose of the invader as you see fit. If the invader showed you an opening by doing a gesture, it was his/hers own mistake and should be punished by an attack, if you feel like doing so. If the invader feels the need to do a gesture before starting a fight, yet is unable to secure his vicinity against potentional attack, the invader is entirely to blame for this.

    As an example. I got invaded in Anor Londo while questing with two phantoms. We cleared the entire area from the first elevator up to the Solaire's bonfire. Since I couldn't use the bonfire, I decided to do the whole location in one go, even though I had my last Estus Flask. I didn't ask the invader to invade me, nor did I had any interest in risking my progress in the area only because of some self made sense of honor this invader follows. As such, he got Hornet backstabbed while he was bowing and insta killed by me.

    "You, sir, have no manners."
    "Don't invade my world then. I did not summon you for a duel."
    "Invasions are a part of the game."
    "So is Hornet Ring. Goodbye."

    Dark Spirit Knight Kirk and King Jeremiah does not bow to the player when they invade them either.
    Nor does Lautrec and his little ganker troupe. big grin

     
    Thanks for weighing in, you have been much more articulate and less inflammatory than I in making the point I was trying to address.  BTW I know it's a game, I'm not attacking anyone's character personally just because they play as a Darkwraith.  The comment was based on my own experience and 200+ hours of play, it just so happens that this is my experience with Darkwraiths.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:06 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Vicious wrote: Not the other person's fault because they don't want to watch the "bow gesture" for the millionth time.
    This is what I was commenting on.

    Wether you want to deal with it or not is irrelivant, and cannot be used as a justification to do whatever you want to anything you don't want to deal with.

    If you want to attack people who bow, fine, you're within the rules of the game, and thus your rights, to do so, but you cannot justify it with "because I don't want to deal with it."

    You are responsible for your actions, reguardless of your feelings at the time.

     I see, but this sounds like I'm committing a crime?  Or at fault for something?  I don't see how.  They invade me, uninvited, unwelcome.  I do what I have to do to get it over with because a straight up PVP duel is not what I'm looking for at that time.  That makes me wrong and makes my conduct unacceptable?  I just don't see that.

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by BrotherBob on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:13 pm

    I somewhat disagree with Sentiel. The fact that a player invades through the Red Eye Orb does not mean that the host did not expect the invasion and does not want to fight. Players in the Kiln often stay there and use the Dried Finger to quickly get invaders for duels. Gankers in the Forest and Anor Londo are not "forced to engage in PvP". They invest their time and stay there simply to engage in PvP and nothing more. My point is that the invader should not always bear the weight of being the bad guy when engaging in random invasions. Also, the host and phantoms should not hide behind that logic when they gank. On occasion, I have met such people who believe that I was the one in the wrong despite the fact that they were ganking and expecting invasions.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:14 pm

    I'm not saying its unacceptable, just shooting down that justification.

    its fine. I don't do it, but I don't judge people who do (though neither do i give them the opportunity to do it to me.) Its my choice, neither right nor wrong.

    Other people generally do not share my view however.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:15 pm

    I don't jump bowers. That's just me though. If I'm questing, then they get a arrow to the face, or a dark bead or something as soon as they're done.

    Sometimes, not always, but sometimes I'll completely back off while questing if they bow.

    I don't know why, I like the whole bowing thing, its just, classy imo.

    I also don't taunt unless they jump me.

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:17 pm

    BrotherBob wrote:I somewhat disagree with Sentiel. The fact that a player invades through the Red Eye Orb does not mean that the host did not expect the invasion and does not want to fight. Players in the Kiln often stay there and use the Dried Finger to quickly get invaders for duels. Gankers in the Forest and Anor Londo are not "forced to engage in PvP". They invest their time and stay there simply to engage in PvP and nothing more. My point is that the invader should not always bear the weight of being the bad guy when engaging in random invasions. Also, the host and phantoms should not hide behind that logic when they gank. On occasion, I have met such people who believe that I was the one in the wrong despite the fact that they were ganking and expecting invasions.

     I think the diff here is in the hosts intent.  If you are just trying to get through something and build a character then maybe you summon a couple phantoms to safe guard against what is viewed as a potential hazard of the environment.  Not necessarily looking to farm invaders 2v1 or 3v1 but just looking to fend them off and get through the area.

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by BrotherBob on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:21 pm

    Of course, I was just talking about those players who actually wait for invaders.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Latitoast on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:23 pm

    He's saying that you shouldn't try to come up with an excuse to justify what you did if someone doesn't like it.

    Personally I don't like it when people bowstab but I only bow during RSS invasions for this very reason.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:27 pm

    BrotherBob wrote:Of course, I was just talking about those players who actually wait for invaders.

     I have a char that I pvp in forest covenant with and it is pretty cheap when you run into 10 different teams of Ornstein and Smaugh look-a-likes.  Even in those cases though I don't bow, I wouldn't fault anyone for stabbing me if I did bow.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Rynn on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:34 pm

    If someone bows, and I don't want them bowing, I kick them.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:36 pm

    Latitoast wrote:He's saying that you shouldn't try to come up with an excuse to justify what you did if someone doesn't like it.

    Personally I don't like it when people bowstab but I only bow during RSS invasions for this very reason.

     True enough, I guess the reason doesn't matter, I don't feel that I did anything wrong that I need to find justification for but I got defensive, needlessly.

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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by BrotherBob on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:39 pm

    My point wasn't about bowing. It was an argument against Sentiel's point. I was saying that just because someone invades via the Red Eye Orb does not mean that they will exclusively encounter questers. They may easily encounter players who are waiting for duels. Effectively, I'm saying that people should be more open-minded about random invasions, and, in some cases, treat random invaders in the same way as RSS invaders.

    Also, I mentioned my distaste for players who like to gank (note here that i didn't say "quest") and say that the invaders are in the wrong and deserve to be ganked (I've gotten messages like that).

    EDIT: Sorry, I'm technically nit-picking at something unrelated to the original post, so let me get back on topic. If someone bows, it means that they are being courteous in the same way that a good waiter is courteous to a customer. So, in the same way that you would tip the waiter, I think that it is only right to let the invader finish the animation.


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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Vicious on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:46 pm

    Yea but it's a crap shoot, they don't know who they're invading. I agree with him in that in those cases all bets are off, anything goes.  Especially since a person can choose to randomly invade or they can choose to fight someone who is for sure looking for a fight.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Rynn on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:47 pm

    Saying someone shouldn't do something just because the other person is silly.
    If I don't like what my opponent is doing, I will react however I feel appropriate. Perhaps Vicious feels that response is to kill them, by backstabbing them.

    They won't bow again, and they can get over it.
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    Re: Bad Form in PVP

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:58 pm

    BrotherBob wrote:My point wasn't about bowing. It was an argument against Sentiel's point. I was saying that just because someone invades via the Red Eye Orb does not mean that they will exclusively encounter questers. They may easily encounter players who are waiting for duels. Effectively, I'm saying that people should be more open-minded about random invasions, and, in some cases, treat random invaders in the same way as RSS invaders.

    Also, I mentioned my distaste for players who like to gank (note here that i didn't say "quest") and say that the invaders are in the wrong and deserve to be ganked (I've gotten messages like that).
    confused 
    I was reffering to situations in which the host does not seek PvP for whatever reason.

    Of course that invaders encounter gankers, or players waiting for a duel. In such cases, the usage of gesture is up to every individual, but they still have only themselves to blame for a outcome they dislike.

    Especially thanks to running into gankers and other similar people, one should be cautious with their gesture usage. Use them only with enough space between them and their opponent. With a back facing a wall, or some indestructible object. Make sure the opponent does not hold a Catalyst. Search the surroundings for any phantoms that may be waiting for the gesture to attack. Perhaps waiting for the opponent to bow first.

    As such, if the invader is foolish and careless enough to use a gesture while there is a chance that the gesture can be punished, the said invader has only himself to blame for getting attacked in the gesture's animation. Not try to push his/hers self-made rules, or a code of honor upon the opponent he/she faced and demanding the other party to abide by these rules, or code. While these may be so widespread to be considered common, not everybody aceepts and uses them and one should be always prepared for running into such individual.

    If I get invaded, or invade, I don't bow. Why? So that I can eat a CSS in my face?
    I will bow after the fight as a thank you for a good fight. Or do any other gesture that will relay how I feel about what just happened. Of course, using RSS, or Dragon Eye is completely different story. I will always bow. However, I will use the Proper Bow, even though I dislike it, to minimize the opening the gesture creates. Not everybody using these online items desires a fair fight. If it gets me killed, I'll try to remember the persons name and don't summon him/her again.


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