Anime General Discussion

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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Reaperfan on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:08 am

    Tolvo wrote:Well I've got to ask, in the East do they consider Western cartoons to be serious things?  
    As far as I know, they don't treat it any differently than anime. To them "anime" literally is just shorthand for "animation" so any imported cartoon is an "anime" to them as well. Basically "anime" and "cartoon" are interchangeable, and since "anime" is accepted over there then so are other cartoons. Only in the west do we use "anime" to refer to animated shows from a specific region.

    Though really the best I know about how well specific imported shows are actually received over there is that Bronies exist there too, so they at least like MLP:FiM straight face


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:09 am

    Tolvo wrote:Well I've got to ask, in the East do they consider Western cartoons to be serious things?
    Why would you ask Westerners that? silly

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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Reaperfan on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:11 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Well I've got to ask, in the East do they consider Western cartoons to be serious things?
    Why would you ask Westerners that? silly
    Because even if we don't know the whole story, maybe we know something and might be able to offer just a bit of insight as long as you take it with a grain of salt? winking

    EDIT: Been a good night all, thanks for the heavy dose of perspective Tolvo. But for now, I'm going to take advantage of that "one extra hour of sleep" thing we only get once a year. Reaperfan out!


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:21 am

    Now that he is gone and isn't here to disagree with me.

    All anime is dumb, people who like it are butts!
    If you disagree with me, no you're dumb!
    Nyeeeeaaaaa!

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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Marino. on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:24 am

    Dunno about other cartoons, but mlp is fairly succesful in Japan.
    They already air season 2 and they have a few mangas with 3-Page-Stories, Toys and Plushies and of course lots and lots of Porn
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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 am

    Also if it is any consolation, I drew some anime.





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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:09 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Everybody should just be a Sarge, like Sarge-Pillow or Sargepei up there.
    You should know their proper name is dakimakura. winking

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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:12 pm

    lol, sarge pillow. How ridiculous lol!

    I love the satirical blushing cheeks as well. One has to admit that the overt shyness, ability to get startled by anything and permanent blushing cheeks of female anime characters is kinda ridiculous. Then again I've only met one girl raised in east Asia and she also got startled by absolutely anything and was very shy so maybe that's just how it is silly


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:36 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Well I've got to ask, in the East do they consider Western cartoons to be serious things?

    EDIT: Also you guys totally should watch Cat Soup, it's just one episode which is on youtube in four parts. It's a very fascinating thing, created by a man that had lost his wife. He basically tried to tell everything about her life and how important she was to him in Cat Soup. He hand drew all of it personally, published it, wrote it himself. It is essentially a love letter to his dead wife.
    That sounds really boring, like grave of the fireflies.



    Also, Japanese culture puts really heavy emphasis on heritage (though less so in the last few generations) and concepts like duty/honor (up to and including ones role in society) so naturally many of their heros in media were born into the role (as in their history.) It also makes the heros "different" within a society that stresses conformity, even as they fight to preserve the society. The point is quite often that one can be both an individual and still find a place in and work towards a unified society.

    The crappy ones are self insert fantasies, but a great deal of anime is nothing like you describe. It would be like judging the majority of western cartoons by tom and jerry or western movies by batman.

    Ghost in the Shell SAC, Eureka 7, Cowboy beebop, outlaw star, howls moving castle, trinity blood, samurai shamploo, kikki's delivery service, the borrowers, wolfs rain. None of these match your description. Not entirely sure, but pretty sure I've mentioned all of these in this thread at some point.

    Further, Is not art the expression of an idea or concept? If it is, who is to say Naruto can't have just as much meaning as Cat Soup, and you simply fail to see it? You are not the one expressing the idea, so any judgement you might make on the "artistic validity" of anything is baseless.

    (You is a general term here, not singling you out. You seem to have an opinion somewhere between mine and western cultures)

    As an example, pretty much the only art I understand (as art) is martial art. How (and wether) someone fights can say so much about them, their beliefs, their personality, their emotional state, their feelings on their opponent. That is an art I understand. I'm never going to understand the point of grave of the fireflies. It is, in my view, a meanless and overzealous attempt to make me sad. That does not mean it is lacking in validity of any sort, just that I don't understand it. If people are so pretentious as to refuse to consider anything art, I'd rather not have them influencing media I enjoy.

    Last, even in things with similar plots, a great deal of a shows meaning comes in the form of character interactions. The "plot" is just a backdrop for the self discovery and challenged beliefs (and subsequent internal struggles.) Shows with "similar" plots can and do tell dramatically different stories on the small scale.





    TLDR: Culture influence, art interpretation, micro-macro.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:28 am

    I take it you haven't read a single other thing I posted in the thread Forum?  Well alright then, don't expect me to give your post much thought then either.

    EDIT: In case you missed it earlier, I said I think most anime is crap. And most movies, most TV shows, most games. I'm a cynic, I think most everything is crap. It isn't just anime I think is crap, some of those anime you've listed off to me as good examples, I already used as good examples of what people should draw attention to rather than the more cliche ones. My entire point was to focus more so on and spread word of the less regular ones, the ones that aren't so entrenched in anime culture that a person going in will have no understanding of anything going on. I have high expectations for everything, high standards for everything, because of that most things fall short. That also doesn't mean I don't enjoy dumb things. Hakigake Otokojuko which I enjoy is dumb as hell, Mad Bull 34 is probably one of the dumbest anime ever created but I still enjoy it. Please don't just assume my view is "Pretentious" when you know nothing about my views.
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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:02 pm

    I didn't. I specifically mentioned that with "you is a general term, I'm not singling you out. You seem to have an opinion somewhere between mine and western cultures." and I obviously know something of your views, because you've been expressing them, either that or you're lying.

    Also, you're looking in the wrong places. Part of the point of doing something animated is that they can do things that can't be done well/cheaply IRL. There is anime thats very "grounded," but it's a minority, because those are just done live action for the most part. Pretty much the same as in western culture, actually. No need for drawings or expensive CG if it's less of a pain to do it (better, because of facial expressions) with real people.

    This means, just as in any other media, its largest culture subgroup is centered on specific arctypes/genres (like fantasy,) and like all media cultures, it evolved to have all kinds of "inside" things that are tough to understand from the outside. That said, we're mostly talking amongst ourselves, and mostly posessing some understanding of anime culture, so there is little need for us to be recommending anime outside of typical conventions based on the fact that they're outside typical conventions alone, nor does being outside typical conventions make it entertaining.

    There have been 30 zillion shows superficially similarl to Yuyu hakashou. That does not detract from its quality. There have been very few shows (i'm aware of) similar to Rin. I still don't like it. The inverse is true with Cowboy beebop (i like/is different) and onepiece (cliche/don't like)

    If thats what you're asking for, we'll probably oblige, but thats not really the point of the thread, and definitely not something I run into IRL either. It's not my (or anyone elses) responsibility to educate people who dismiss a type of media out of hand, because they don't understand/are unwilling to learn the culture or find examples that are outside it.

    Some great shows use the same clichés , and simply apply them better, or in odd places (I'm pretty sure one could classify Eureka 7 as mahou shojou, a genre I detest as a whole, yet Eureka 7 is my favorite show ever, as an example.)

    In short, I disagree with your premise. One should draw attention to whatever they think the people they're talking to will enjoy. Within an anime culture, thats typically anime also within an anime culture. (and thus what gets the most attention.) That only needs to change if the specific person asking is looking for something different.




    Apparently I'm really long winded today.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:41 pm

    We were talking about Reaper's article which was meant to try and get people normally not interested in anime to give anime a shot. As such I was talking about ways to interest people in regards to variety and such. There is a lot of fantasy and cliche series, there are things in anime which are typical that aren't typical in western cartoons, or western tv, or films. But just like why maybe you don't want to watch a lot of movies of Mr Joe Shmoe have to rescue his Ex-Wife and estranged children from bad guy because he's the only man for the job, understand why people don't want to watch a bunch of anime about magical girl who is in school that has another life that is fantastical.

    That is also not to say that things are cliche can't be good or enjoyable, but when it gets to be too much it can get grading. And when you aren't ingrained in a culture if there are and subtle nuances you won't notice them. Maybe some magical girl shows are different, I can't tell the difference between any of them. Not to mention to a lot of people in the west the focus of shows just aren't what interest us, especially among adults. Adults normally aren't all that interested in teen drama, so they often won't watch movies targeted towards teenagers. Anime is often fantastical, but not everyone wants fantasy to that degree. I don't actually care too much for escapism personally, I instead focus on going for interesting stories or entertainment. So I never imagine myself as the character, or want to be in the world, I pay attention to mostly the writing and more objective aspects of a show. Visual fidelity, sound design, then going into the more subjective routes such as art style and writing. In regards to subjective aspects, art style is really general in anime with many things looking incredibly alike. There will be a very slight difference in line thickness, or maybe their eyes are slightly tinier. But they all just look so similar it is difficult for me to notice much of a difference. If it is going for hyper realism it is different, in fact I can visually enjoy them more if so. Or if they try to separate themselves from others, Shin Chan visually looks quite different from a lot of anime so it stands out. In western cartoons people are designed to look different, spongebob looks nothing like dexter, who looks nothing like scooby doo, who looks nothing like Pop-Eye, who looks nothing like Mickey Mouse. Instead I see a similar sized big eyes pink haired girl, then a girl with blue hair, then another with pink, and then one is blond. How do I tell the characters apart? Eye colors, hair colors, clothing, nothing about their faces though makes it easy. In something like Akira they went with some realism but people are a bit exagerated, however every single face is slightly different with bone structures. I can recognize people just by their faces, their voices are distinct, and I don't have to just go off of voices, clothing, or hair color.

    I might be more interested as well if they went full on fantasy beyond what we normally see. It tries to make things relate-able to humans, if you're dealing with another dimension its humans with some feature change. They have a different eye color, or skin, or maybe cat ears. If there is a show where many of the main characters are just blobs of gelatin that need to use mechanical devices to speak, and talk through historical events I'd go, "Alright this is creative and very different, I've got to give this a shot."

    Also I am sorry for being so condescending in my previous post to you forum, people have been treating me a bit poorly lately so I have at times reacted towards them in the same way, which is immature of me. And it has made me overly defensive.
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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:26 pm

    But anime =/= teen drama. Trying to get random 40y/o's into teen drama (eg YuYu hakashou) is most likely a colossal waste of time. Trying to get random 40y/o's into political conspiracy (eg trinity blood, Ghost in the Shell SAC) would be much easier. Both of these are littered with cliché elements, are fantasy/sci-fi (also fantastic) and wholeheartedly within anime culture, but the characters are visually distinct (the important ones more so,) the characters/world well defined, consist and believable. Pretty much the opposite of a self insert fantasy, and not especially appealing as worlds to live in instead of this one, so not big on escapism either. The alternate worlds are just necessary to tell the story.

    There are actually a great many art styles. That one is just everywhere, and done lazily. FLCL has pretty much the same style, as does eureka 7 and samurai champloo, but the characters in those are distinct because the artist put in some effort.

    I can say the same of western stuff though, for the most part what makes animated marvel/dc females visually distinct is clothing/hair, and there are a lot of movies there. Anime just gets more exposure. Thats an example of observation bias and stereotyping.

    I don't understand why regular people would want to watch anything about other regular people. Lack of empathy I guess, but those types of things are usually emotional appeals, and I'm not affected. There are thousands of similar things happening to people right now. Nothing special, terribly dull.

    I don't believe in the existence of objective parameters for determining the quality of media. It's all preference. Especially as we're dealing with art. Art+ objective seems like an oxymoron.

    No harm done. As usual, articulation is a problem for me, all I can do is fix it afterwards.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:46 pm

    You can objectively look at artwork, that Musashi Gundoh show is a great example.

    Look at her left arm.:

    Pistol on Sword combat.:

    What?:

    Watch the bullets vanish in his hands, then suddenly appear in the gun.:

    Walk Cycle.:

    "Running":

    In some cuts characters just lack pupils because they forgot to draw them, sometimes objects don't reach the bottom of the screen because in editing they didn't notice they didn't fully draw it.  There can be errors, graphical fidelity is similar to glitches.  You can see them and just recognize "This is wrong."  Sound quality again, I don't pay much attention to the music but if something is just way too loud for some reason, if I can pick up a sound that clearly isn't intended like someone in the studio saying something during recording that no one else noticed because it was too quiet, it is bothersome.

    And that is the issue I was mentioning, being everywhere.  I have difficulty finding the less generic ones I might enjoy, when I try to talk to people about anime to see if there is anything I might enjoy they almost always suggest the really typical stuff to me.  I don't get something with animation like Reign the Conqueror which is incredibly iconic and easy to recognize.  Instead I get suggested Dog Days, something that might be the most generic anime to ever exist.  If you haven't watched it, give it a chance and watch the first episode. See if you can get through it's most bland blandness, it's maddening. In regards to conveying emotions, feelings, ideas, I have no frame of reference, how can I tell that these characters are acting like nothing is going on in a situation?  Their face doesn't convey it, but there is a giant teardrop next to their head.  Does that mean in anime world that they are ready to cry?  Why in this realistic depiction show with people looking like real humans, did all her features go away becoming super simple as her head grew large and she yelled at people?  This sort of stuff can really turn people away, because we just end up with no clue what the hell is going on.  Perhaps it is like in a Western cartoon when someone is looking at someone attractive and they howl like a wolf while their eyes grow bigger, in anime it is often nose bleeding which I didn't understand even remotely until I actually looked it up and finally got what the hell was happening.  I've noticed among a few people from other countries I've talked to, when translated they can get a show like Venture Bros a bit more in ways.  When someone is disgusted they real back and twist their nose, or if someone is trying to be seductive they do so like a real human being.  A lot of cultural references just don't work cross culture, but a lot of human body language is pretty universal.  Hand gestures are not, but facial gestures are.  And in anime faces often aren't that detailed and they forgo facial gestures in detail for cultural signals.  

    Comics are generic looking as hell, superhero drawings and animations I just generally can't get into because they're just so bland and don't stick out to me.  Sometimes they do go with their own styles, other times everything looks nearly identical and that makes it difficult for me to pay any attention.  How many superheroes are men in their thirties or so with similar sized chins, haircuts, dark eyes, teeth, bothers the hell out of me. Comics sort of realize this in a way though since normally they are wearing their costumes so you don't see their faces as much as you see their masks.  

    Ghost in the Shell was a good example I used earlier, I said that is a good show to use to get people that aren't into anime to possibly bridge the gap.  I enjoy the hell out of that show.  

    And the reason that people enjoy seeing other people is often the idea of the situations being believable.  Twelve Angry men is a great example, it is something that could happen.  Likely it wouldn't, but it could.  It is about people trying to decide whether someone is really guilty, with people bringing their bias from multiple backgrounds, and how they can be convinced a minority might not have committed a murder.  It is a commentary on society and quite engaging to hear their reasoning, their investigative work(Which jurors aren't supposed to do and is the silly part).  Citizen Kane is interesting because it is a very possible situation in which a man just destroys himself with the entire story being a character piece, people can enjoy things based off of the interest of concepts rather than just seeing fantastic situations.  To some people that takes them out of it.  

    I should also mention, Ghost in the Shell isn't fantasy, it is pure Cyberpunk Science Fiction, one of the purest examples in anime.

    EDIT:  Reworking this, just realized I accidentally deleted key parts to sentences.

    EDIT 2: Should be fixed. Also enjoy the terrible anime that is Musashi Gundoh.
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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by hey its andres on Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:47 pm

    Steins; Gate was worth it
    "IT'S A MOTEL!"

    I recently watched the Black Rock Shooter OVA and it was pretty cool. Has anyone seen The Sunday Without God? I started it and now I'm halfway done. It kind of reminds me of Dark Souls...


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:54 pm

    and neither is trinity blood sci-fi, in any typical sense. The closest thing to science is the word nanomachine. Thats why I mentioned both genres.

    Western media does the same thing. Part of watching foregin media (or any media) is learning cultural cues. Even stuff thats localised really well tends to be heavy on cultural cues, its just typically subtle about it. Its the viewers job to do the homework necessary to understand it, if they don't already. The same is true of local media, its just that you probably already know everything necessary to understand it.

    Detailed facial expressions are difficult and time consuming, and shows run on a schedule. The result is typically "emotional shorthand," unless they've got a really big team or artists who will work 14 hours a day, for 4 or 5 days in a row. In shows that don't do that (cowboy beebop) the characters faces, while distinct, are usually fairly plain, using head/eye shape and hair to differentiate between characters.

    1 google search (exactly) brought up wikipedias list. Or just watch it with someone who understands it and have them explain. Good subs explain at the top of the screen.

    Its like videogames. If you just sit down and play, chances are you're missing most of what's happening. You have to learn the mechanics to get it all. No different here, except you've spent your entire life learning the 1 set, like only ever playing tetris before jumping to golden axe. If you don't want to, thats fine, but it's not a flaw in the media.

    Interesting concepts and fantasy are not mutually exclusive. I don't need fantasy to be entertained. But real life tends to offer very few concepts I find interesting. The Postman is interesting. The Stand is interesting. Whats eating gilbert grape/gran tourino/the boy in the striped pajamas are not interesting.

    I don't have a problem with live action things. I really like the boondock saints (the first one,) but thats not about regular people. Its about a pair off headcase vigilanties and their war on the mob(s).

    Believable is a relative concept. Suspended disbelief is an important skill for enjoying most media. One simply accepts that something is true, and goes from there. As an example, I can just accept that the Tardis and its powers are true for the world, so long as its abilities stay constant, even though no such thing could exist. I cannot accept that Dr who used a Cyberman from the wrong universe in an episode (by mistake, presumably) after it has been well established that they were all sent back and that there is no way through anymore, or that the sonic probe now doubles as a multipurpose scanner and sonar and can somehow hold a door open that weighs enough to crush a human, by interacting with the door as opposed to the mechanics. Its abilities were defined, so even though its not possible, I can accept it. They arbitrarily give it new powers and contradict older episodes in doing so, now its not believable.

    One has to be able to apply suspended disbelief even in "grounded" movies. Ever notice how every time anyone touches a gun it makes an obnoxious "being ****" sound? Every time that doesn't break it for you, that's suspended disbelief in action. Ever hear any car sound, in anything, ever? Ever notice that nobody ever runs properly, or that nearly every car has a perfectly smooth ride so long as the camera is inside (unless it's an action scene.)

    People do it all the time anyways. All it takes is some application.





    You mean Like how DKS mistakenly said "You Defeated" and when it got fixed to make sense people complained so much that it got changed back? Preference.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:21 pm

    It's not really going to put my hopes up to hear, "I have this anime to suggest to you, by the way here is an online manual on what the hell is going on in this." You ease someone into something, you don't just tell them to accept the more foreign concepts to them or throw them into something that requires a lot of in-knowledge. If I can make a Star Wars comparison, which I can do with everything in existence, for someone trying to get into the Expanded Universe I'd suggest they start with the X-Wing Series or Thrawn Trilogy. Both take place soon after the film, have clear villains, and aren't overly complicated. Things are explained in those stories about the world throughout them so someone new can get an understanding. There is no meta-knowledge needed. Throw someone into the Yuuzhan Vong war, "Why is the New Republic led by a Bothan? What's a bothan? Why is Leia not in the senate, there's a senate? People are invading, are these aliens normally in the series? Are bug explosives normal? Is killing Jedi supposed to be important? Why should I care about this important character dying, I don't know them? What is an X-Wing? Are the Hutts important?" Keep in mind this conversation is about the idea of trying to get people that normally aren't into anime into it, and ways to ease them in.

    Subtitled versions can give explanations, if you're even watching those. Normally I do not, I watch the English versions with voice acting typically unless I absolutely can't stand a voice actor, the only case I can think of that is with Detective Conan for Moiri. Other than that there often aren't suitable translator's note, and especially they don't help with visual aspect. "*Translator's Note: This character's nose is bleeding to represent that he was having sexual thoughts about another character."
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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:01 pm

    That's a very poor representation of a translator's note, as it represents a situation that isn't about dialogue (therefore having nothing to translate) and the reasoning of the action you stated is very easily understood without much context being necessary so threre'd be no need for extra elaboration.  But since you say you don't watch subs I'm assuming you actually don't have much basis to go off of for actual examples.

    Typically translator notes are used to explain something esoteric about the Japanese language, such as when there is a joke being told that is a pun or a misunderstanding in basic language is taking place between characters.  Since Japanese syllables can hold more than one meaning, as well as the fact that "Engrish" is sometimes used in Japanese dialogue, this is rather helpful for understanding why characters are suddenly confused or off kilter following the dialogue.  This is a common point in the "subs vs dubs" argument, as oftentimes these jokes will be changed or removed completely in the dub, making the entire scene feel awkward since the original context no longer, and cannot exist since it was based in the Japanese language.

    Other than that the only time I've seen translator notes recently has been when they use a show-specific term for the first time so that they can keep using it naturally without people being lost, like when the term "Yoma" is first said in Claymore.

    And to lighten the mood a bit:



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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:38 am

    In-exact parallel. Unlike Starwars, where previous entries provide context for newer material, there are no explicit instructions present, nor can there be unless its briefly in subs or a pause menu. (the pause menu isn't a bad idea, but it would be far from comprehensive) Either you infer from context, which takes experience, or you look it up.

    I'm not saying "throw someone face first into FLCL," which would take like 2 hours per episode to explain. I am saying that there is no reason not to recommend samurai shamploo, just so long as they understand that some things may need context they will have to go get to be understood properly.

    Many people are too lazy for it, but the bottom line is that getting into anime takes work. Even things localised well. With no knowledge of Japanese culture, it's very likely thas someone watch Ghost in the shell is going to miss that the incessant bowing of the American CIA agents is less "polite" or "deferential," and more "incredibly condescending." That's an important cue in that episode too. It might just go unnoticed instead of confusing someone, but then it might not and confuse the viewer late on. The culture barrier is always there, and there is no way around it. One must climb it if they hope to get the proper perspective.

    (For the record, thats the same reason I almost universally prefer subs. Much of the context and meaning is changed or lost in (verbal) translation where subs are generally more literal. Even with a very crude understanding of the japanese language, many things make sense in a literal translation that do not in the localised dubs.)

    If one is unwilling to put in the effort, I'd recommend they stick to local media. It's not just true of anime, but all foreign media.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:16 pm

    Believable is a relative concept. Suspended disbelief is an important skill for enjoying most media. One simply accepts that something is true, and goes from there. As an example, I can just accept that the Tardis and its powers are true for the world, so long as its abilities stay constant, even though no such thing could exist. I cannot accept that Dr who used a Cyberman from the wrong universe in an episode (by mistake, presumably) after it has been well established that they were all sent back and that there is no way through anymore, or that the sonic probe now doubles as a multipurpose scanner and sonar and can somehow hold a door open that weighs enough to crush a human, by interacting with the door as opposed to the mechanics. Its abilities were defined, so even though its not possible, I can accept it. They arbitrarily give it new powers and contradict older episodes in doing so, now its not believable.
    I'm glad you mentioned this, because I find it crucial in all media. Whether the show/movie is based on reality or not, having it break its own clearly defined rules really kills the immersion of the experience. When a show does it well, it can be very entertaining.

    Typically translator notes are used to explain something esoteric about the Japanese language, such as when there is a joke being told that is a pun or a misunderstanding in basic language is taking place between characters. Since Japanese syllables can hold more than one meaning, as well as the fact that "Engrish" is sometimes used in Japanese dialogue, this is rather helpful for understanding why characters are suddenly confused or off kilter following the dialogue.
    Dubs do their best to come up with their own jokes or puns instead when translated over to English, and they usually fall flat (which is still better than when they're flat AND totally irrelevant to the situation). I wonder how frequently their Japanese counterparts also fell flat haha. I get the feeling that some of the basic language/double meaning puns probably aren't that great in the original media, either, which would make a direct translation pretty wonky. That must be hard for the dubs.

    Often translator notes will explain a purely cultural reference, also. I find these pretty useful, as I do not have detailed knowledge of Japanese culture.

    Many people are too lazy for it, but the bottom line is that getting into anime takes work.
    Or a tolerance for not understanding everything right away. Watching it for over 10 years, I've picked up on most of the patterns. I don't recall looking up much, and early on some things were lost on me (though a lot can be reasonably inferred). The concept of "entry anime" is probably a valid one in that sense however; it's a lot easier to pick up things you're not familiar with if they don't overload you. In that context something like Slayers would be far easier to get into than shows that have far more cultural references. You still have anime ridiculousness, but also a familiar setting from a fantasy perspective and much of the Japanese-specific themes aren't brought to the forefront because the setting and character personalities would clash. It's definitely not something that would "take 2 hours per episode to explain", nor does it rely extensively on assumed context, and that difference is important.

    Your subs vs dubs point is interesting. There are shows I prefer one or the other...but subs are far more universally available. Sometimes, the voices seem off in English, but if the voice actors/actresses are good and the people working on it understand the show's intentions dubs can be a better choice. Still, most of the time subs do in fact capture the context better.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:45 pm

    imo that's rare though. I can think of 2 i prefer in english because I hate someones voice (i leave the japanese -english subs on anyways) and 2 where I wouldn't notice if the language switched with every scene. otherwise, I prefer sub.

    The "entry level" conncept isn't one I was arguing against, in case that wasn't clear. My point was that it's foreign media. Wether it be slayers, hentalia or naruto, some cultural cues will be there, and they will be important. If someone isn't willing to put in the time/effort to learn them, many things will not make sense or be missed. Knowlegde is one of the things to considered when recommending anime, but it cannot/should not be the determining factor in all but the most exaggerated cases. There is going to be time/effort involved in understanding any anime, so it's up to the viewer to be willing to put in that effort, and to know going in that the effort will be necessary.

    It's a one time thing though. Once you understand that "sama" is an honorific generally reserved for people of significantly higher station than is typical/ones own station, there is no need to learn it again. Once you understand that "big head" typically means anger/yelling in a comedy relief setting, you can understand the character interaction jokes involving such displays. It's not complicated, just different. Where they have "big head" we have "steam rising from ears."



    (btw tolvo, it's not a teardrop on the back of someones head, it's sweat. doing the giant drop allows the artists to show that a character is nervous without having to single them out and use facial expressions, meaning other thing can be going/focused on in that shot) That type of thing actually means there can be more things happening on screen, because the emotions of the characters can be conveyed with less dialogue and over greater distances, so they don't have to cut away from whatever is happening.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:45 pm

    Wow, those things have become so typical to me that I didn't even consider them. I think some of the (big head anger) are pretty obvious however, especially in context big grin. Same thing with nervous sweating or that typical little plus-sign like anger symbol (which I've seen in a western animation or two haha). Time and again, you see such things used the same way within one anime and between them, and unlike many of the character's choices (^_^) they're pretty logical visual connections to make.

    Anime DOES use teardrops also, but once again such context is pretty obvious, as is the severity of the character being upset (such things and how they're used set the mood pretty early in a show).

    It's a shame that explanations of suffixes like "sama" and typical references to siblings, typical references to someone close vs not (and characters react when such references are used unexpectedly to them), and so forth are rarely explained in translator's notes now. Back when I started watching, such was still more typical to be explained early on, and thus the "work" one would have to do to learn them was virtually nil.

    I still think if someone picks a few anime where the cues are relatively straightforward that it'll be easier for them to get into foreign media, and that's not unique to anime. Retention is always better when information is brought in gradually and within a framework that is at least partially known. The less it feels like work the better, because it is after all intended for entertainment. Even effort should ideally be enjoyable, if for the purposes of entertainment. That means that anime isn't for everyone, but neither are video games, TV shows, competitive sports, etc.


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Reaperfan on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:34 pm

    More things I did.  Back to a review this week because my next rant is proving to be rather tough to mentally formulate straight face


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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by hey its andres on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:00 am



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    Re: Anime General Discussion

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:17 am

    What we do every day pinky. Try to take over the world.


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