Pendant Theories

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by User on Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:50 pm

    You know, that woman in black and white is similar to the pardoner. She also holds a catalyst, which is white... similar to the ivory catalyst.

    As for what she has in her other hand... it looks like a wand. Now remember, that Witch Beatric was drawn to have both a catalyst and a wand as well.

    Not gwynevre. More so velka.
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:02 pm

    Beatrice's art book wand is still like a stick and her catalyst is a bigger stick. Hopefully I didn't say the picture was holding a catalyst....I meant talisman. I haven't seen any Beatrice talisman (which of course doesn't mean there isn't one). I'm no expert on Velka (read, know next to nothing) as she hasn't piqued my curiosity as of yet so.......

    Acidic....that could be Velka. If I've seen your hints correctly you think Velka would be Gwyndolin's mother so the resemblance would still be family between the two portraits but not the same individual. I have zero evidence against this. I still interpret it as 'dolin myself but for the sake of objective research Velka makes just as much sense.....even within my own thoughts. If it's Gwyndolin's room, why not have pictures of both women in the family? It's also just as logical for the family to have portraits done simultaneously so they are all represented at a specific point in time as it is to have portraits of the same person over time. I don't see any reason that can't be Velka. The only argument I could make I also can make the counter argument. Argument: Why would the Velka and Gwyndolin paintings be present in the room but we're missing pictures of Gwyn and the "realistic" portrait of Gwynevere? Counter argument: 'dolin don't like daddy much and I think he might prefer his idealized image to the realistic one.

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Yukon on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:38 pm

    This has probably already been brought up, but that painting isn't the only idealized image of gwyneverne we see in anor londo, I am not one to usually notice these things, so someone slap me on the wrist if I am repeating common knowledge.




    I agree that the general idea is that dolin made her illusion well-endowed to trick people into his plan, but what about the female adventurers that made it there. I guess he didn't take them into account? Something that kinda pulled my interest just reading this now. Anyway, repeating information probably.

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by User on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:48 pm

    When I said catalyst, I meant talisman. Sorry about that one. I usually see them as the same at tomes, magic usage and all. Although the functionality of both is different. Still.

    If it is not the goddess witch (seeing as how she has brown hair instead of black... The colour of Velka as said by the vow of silence... It could be of a descendant family member.

    I am still researching the aspects of it, and have most of the portraits in my notebook in this forum. My ideals lead towards the view of Witch Beatric. Her clothing is of similar flavour to pardoner, her purple outfit is of similar taste as Velka's miracles, being black and purple. She is able to walk the abyss, the domain of the primordial serpants. Dragons in which tie to the flame and Velka, as I have found in my search. It might be that the woman is not of Vella, but a descendant of her o a friend in which is the ancestral heritage to Beatric as being a witch. Here catalyst says that it was passed down, and it's design is similar to that of the demon catalyst. The demon catalyst being that of the roots of the bed of chaos with magma shard.

    Her hair is of similar taste, being brown and blond. Might be the tie to Beatric.
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:54 pm

    Nice addition Yukon....I'm not sure he did it to exclusively distract male adventurer's. Emotionally speaking he'd be a very damaged young man. Raised contrary to his biology would be stressful (even if he was the one who desired to be female). He would likely hold his sister, as a born female, in insanely high regard. Out of this desire he likely perceives all of her feminine traits as the ideal and probably actually sees them as "extreme" let's say. An anorexic looking into a mirror literally sees fat. Like that he probably compared his female traits to hers and may have literally seen her chest the way the illusion is made. Also, we do always forget to bring up the statue in existing art in the game. I've theorized that the city was renovated a lot after Gwyn's departure with Ornstein, Smough and Gwyndolin likely the biggest influences to the new architecture and art. The missing first born might be because there's no existing images and/or a continuation of the purge from record. The Gwynevere statue might be modeled after the illusion or the painting.

    Acidic, another interesting thought I can't argue against. I've tried to link Beatrice and Artorias so why not more Anor Londo connections for my favorite witch? I'm still tending to think that those two portraits are family so if it's a descendant of Velka with ties to Beatrice then it sounds like, by the time we're done, half the game will be one big family. Which could be of course.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by User on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:56 pm

    There is a reason to everything in dark souls. I am not saying it is true, but my logic sees that it can be so. I will post more about her some day, along with my other candidates of Velka and the witch of Izalith.
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:59 pm

    I hear you Acidic. I think every character (even those in item descriptions) were someone's "baby" so to speak when making the game. I think there's a fleshed out concept of everyone and that there's just little tidbits that made it to game.

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Yukon on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:05 pm

    Did anyone ever get around to testing if anything changed in anor londo after you turned it dark?

    I've never had a dark anor, so I am not sure if these things change at all? As for his mental state, skare that makes complete sense thanks for filling that in for me. I never thought of it that way.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:23 pm

    Anytime......however.....I'm likely looking waaaaaay too deeply into character's thought processes due to my psych background. I might have to suck it up and get to NG+++ because I haven't done an in depth look at differences in Dark and Light Londo. All three playthroughs I've killed Gwynevere before getting down to research mode.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by User on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:25 pm

    Dark Anor Londo shows no difference in many perspectives other than lighting and the Gwyn statue that guards Gwyndolin (which disappears). Howevenot checked the area with paintings in dark. I will check that on my playthrough with whiskey in Anor Londo.
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:34 pm

    I have a pretty good summary of dark londo paintings in Emergence's thread. I would say still look at them yourself. There's at least one I never got a good feel for. I thought it was stonehenge reminiscent before but then saw it looked way more like pillars. Not sure how I failed on my first look. Now I think it looks like the top of the tower in the Painted World but would need another looksee. I though I saw somewhere that you had a lot of pictures posted Acidic. If I saw that correctly do you have the paintings in Light Londo?

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Yukon on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:36 pm

    There is also another statue of her having large breasts in the O&S boss area, as well as an empty place next to gwyn that could have been the god of war or dolin I suppose.

    And what about the room with the 3 Silver knights? Why does it need so much protection, and why has it been so neglected? The bed is too small to have been one beloning to gwyn or in my opinion to Gwynevern. It seems more like a little boy/girls room or a guest room, but why does it need 3 guards? there is also several ceramic plates broken on the floor near the side with the chest that has 2 Demon titanite. Its like someone had a Greek birthday or they were very angry about something and throwing stuff around the room, even the pictures are taken out of wack. The other room is somewhat the same but its lacking the guards.

    In all the glory of anor londo, this room just seems really out of place, the wallpaper is peeling the images are askew, theres chairs pushed out of order plates smashed on the floor. and 3 silver knights taking a tea break? Whats so important about this room?

    Or maybe I killed the birthday boy?
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by ublug on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:55 pm

    Yukon wrote:There is also another statue of her having large breasts in the O&S boss area, as well as an empty place next to gwyn that could have been the god of war or dolin I suppose.
    My guess is that the last is a Gwyndolin statue, since it's pedestal is twice the height of the other two. This could also relate to Gwyndolin's serpent legs, and a possible inferiority complex because of his height, or rather lack of.
    If you shoot arrows at the 'empty' space above the pedestal, they will hit an invisible statue instead of in the wall behind. I have tried different light sources, magic, firebombs, poison mist, but no success in revealing the statue's outline.


    Last edited by ublug on Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:59 pm

    Lol......Agree 100% That room is odd as hell. Gwyn seems a little big for the room and I think I stated somewhere in my meanderings that Gwynevere might be bigger too since the O&S Statues are roughly 1:1 scale. Although she does have two so likely the one in the O&S room is closer to reality. Gwyndolin seems smaller that the rest so that's part of my "that's his room" theory. But to be honest, in combination with the other rooms in that area it's weird that they're all a little small. Like maybe they're servant's quarters or something. Maybe the protected room belongs to Ariamis? My other thought is the area we come to is Gwyndolin's playground. Have you seen how elaborate some of the playhouses kids have can get? This could be his former playhouse with little rooms he fits well in with other room made larger to accommodate visits from family, etc. Of course that suggests Gwyndolin is pulling the strings of Anor Londo due to the presence of O&S, silver knights, and the Blacksmith. All the who's who in Anor Londo converge here. This makes some sense if they all think that Gwynevere is still around......who know....who knows....


    Ublug with the win again. That's a great theory and awexome points. What about mist spells and camera work? Might reveal outlines

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:15 pm

    So my theory. I think that some of the items that you trade to Snuggly have a common relation. For example, if you drop humanity you get Ring of Sacrifice. If you equip the ring, you'll see an humanity symbol below the stamina bar (status effect). Not all items have a obvious relation, such as the moss clumps gives twinkly titanite (no idea how they are related). Another example is the Ring of the Sun Princess, which Snuggly trades it for 2 divine blessings (Gwynevere).

    So if we suppose the Pendant and the Souvenirs of Reprisal have a relation, we should start with Gwyndolin or Velka. skare noticed a some kind of Pendant in one of the paintings of Anor Londo (someone posted the picture) and we think that is young Gwyndolin.

    The three statues of the Goddess with the baby are near 3 important clues. One is the Darkmoon Seance Ring, which is related to Gwyndolin. The other has a Firekeeper Soul in front, and after reah dies a pendant. The last only has the bonfire and the Sunlight Altar near (nothing interesting for now) So the Pendant has the Sunlight Medal description that I don't know why they didn't patch it, so lets suppose it has a relation to it and to Gwyn's Firstborn. Reah appears to be praying to baby Gwynevere using her Pendant at the other statue (let's assume all maidens pray to Gwynevere). And the other statue has the DMSR (Gwyndolin). So it seems the Pendant is related to all Gwyn's children, and to the Goddess of the statues, which I think it is Velka (according to Acid's theory of Velka being Gwyn's wife). The Souvenir of Reprisal is related to Velka too. The only person that is related to Velka in the game is the Pardoner Oswald. You guys help me, I think I'm going hollow with this ****.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:50 pm

    One of these days you'll hear a pop



    ...and know that my head exploded from all 8')

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Siegleyn on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:03 pm

    For it's use I have no clue but I think the pendant is related to Gwynevere leaving Anor Londo.

    I was posting some ideas about Lautrec and Gwynevere in another forum:

    I don't know how people came to that conclusion but the wiki says:

    Daughter of Gwyn, who left Anor Londo with the other deities and is currently wife to the flame god Flann. Gwynevre is protrayed by an illusion in Anor Londo. She left Anor Londo along with other Gods of Anor Londo from Lordran, to possibly Carim.


    The people of Carim are similar to Thorolund, although they worship different Gods all together, with many once residing in Lordran before the Second Lighting of the Flame of Disparity, the First Flame. Their culture in general has Dark beings who wander Lordran in general, and have done many things for the act and beliefs of the Gods of Carim.


    So if Gwynevere became a god of Carim, maybe he got his mission from her.

    "with many once residing in Lordran before the Second Lighting of the Flame of Disparity"

    Flann?? Gwynevere is his wife, so Lautrec would most likely accept her as his goddess if he worships Flann.

    I don't even know if he's so nuts about Fina. He truly whorships her of course and believes in her beauty but that armor and ring were given to him for protection on his journey.
    Velka was probably involved too. As he is a tool of revenge or justice. And if she's Gwyneveres's mother then she probably joined forces with her and planned this coup to finish of Gwyndolin and/or his illusions.

    So, the question would be what caused her leaving? Some people say it was Seath but I think she was against the current situation of the gods, humans and undead.
    Maybe she had a fight with Gwyndolin. And the pendant was a gift from Gwyndolin during the childhood days (or maybe as a farewell gift?).
    Gwynevere then lost the pendant or threw it away (pretty vague everything I know) when she left Anor Londo.
    The maidens found the pendant and used it as a relict of Gwynevere since it was in her possession (They don't know that she left Anor Londo of course).


    Last edited by Siegleyn on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:17 pm

    @Sieg I dont know whats going on in that quote you had, Lautrecloves Fina not flann or fiana.

    Ok heres what Ive been able to connect going through the pendant -
    Pendant > painting > Gwyndolin > mutation > Seath > maidens > reah > petrus > lautrec > darkmoons > souveniar of reprisal >snuggly > pendant > asylum > player > pendant .


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Siegleyn on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:25 pm

    Maybe you read it again. I wasn't saying he loves Flann, I was making up a connection to Flann and Lautrec. Since he is Gwyenveres wife.

    This quote is taken from the Dark Souls wiki, where it says that people of Carim whorship gods who existed before the first Flame was lighted for the second time by Gwyn. The only name that pops up when I read that is Flann, god of fire.

    The people of Carim are similar to Thorolund, although they worship different Gods all together, with many once residing in Lordran before the Second Lighting of the Flame of Disparity, the First Flame. Their culture in general has Dark beings who wander Lordran in general, and have done many things for the act and beliefs of the Gods of Carim.

    People whonder where Gwynevere went, my theory is that she went to Carim where people started woreshipping her because she's Flann wife who seems a god that is already whorshipped by them.
    I mispelled Fina and wrote Fiana, I'm sorry.

    Sauce of the quotes are all here http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Lore


    Last edited by Siegleyn on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:29 pm

    Pop

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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:36 pm

    You do however say -
    So if Gwynevere became a god of Carim, maybe he got his mission from her.

    "with many once residing in Lordran before the Second Lighting of the Flame of Disparity"

    Flann?? Gwynevere is his wife, so Lautrec would most likely accept her as his goddess if he worships Flann.

    Lautrec got his mission from Fina not Gwynevere (though they may be the same person)
    Why would you say Lautrec worships Flann? There is no evidence pointing to that. And Lautrec is crazy about Fina, says so on his armour.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Siegleyn on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:03 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:You do however say -
    So if Gwynevere became a god of Carim, maybe he got his mission from her.

    "with many once residing in Lordran before the Second Lighting of the Flame of Disparity"

    Flann?? Gwynevere is his wife, so Lautrec would most likely accept her as his goddess if he worships Flann.

    Lautrec got his mission from Fina not Gwynevere (though they may be the same person)
    Why would you say Lautrec worships Flann? There is no evidence pointing to that. And Lautrec is crazy about Fina, says so on his armour.

    Yeah, I did. What's wrong with that. It is said that people of Carim whorship different gods.
    It doesn't have to be just one.
    But he truly only loves Fina, the game tells you that he went nuts (not literally) about her sometime befor the player drops in. I'm implying that he isn't a mindless psycho that kills because of her for whatever reason. He wears the armor because it's a gift given by her for his protection, probably because he is a devote Fina follower. For what does he need the protection? For his quest given by Gwynevere and/or Velka. To stay on topic; why would he listen Gwynevere who was most likely an enemy of Velka (even if she's probably the mother) too before she married Flann? Because Flann is the god who existed in Lordran woreshipped by the people of Carim.
    Why do I think that? He is the so called god of fire and how many others would fit into that statement?: -...although they worship different Gods all together, with many once residing in Lordran before the Second Lighting of the Flame of Disparity, the First Flame.

    So;
    - Pendant was in possession of Gwyndolin (maybe it was a gift of his sister when they were children).
    - Gwynevere married Flann and leaves Anor Londo. Why? Maybe because for the same reason Velka had (I'm not really familiar with her) or she wants the age of the first Flame to end. Maybe she fights Gwyndolin. If so, he refuses to wear her pendant any longer (if it was a gift from her). If not maybe it's a farewell gift (possible if in both situation;childhood gift from his sister or not)
    - She doesn't want it anymore and drops it.
    - Maidens find it or even witness it and use it as a relict of Gwynevere
    - Gwyndolin uses fake Gwynevere to maintain power and/or because she leaving him behind triggers something else in him.

    All this (except for the Lautrec part) could have happened long long ago.

    This stuff about Lautrec I quoted at the beginning was originally posted by me on another forum during a discussion about Lautrec and his motives. He's only secondary relevant to the pendant.
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:19 pm

    I think I see what your saying but if I am you're making some big assumptions. Like that Lautrec cared about Flann at all, or that Flann always lived in Carim, or that Lautrec was given a quest by Gwynevere when theres no evidence he was. He was given Fina's protection so he could do Fina's work, not Gwynevere/velka's. Just because someone lives in a country doesnt mean they have to worhsip and love all its gods. Lautrec worships and loves Fina, there no reason for him tol love Flann.
    To you list of points
    1. Agree
    2. She most likely left when Seath drove the gods from lordran. No evidence of an argument with Dolin.
    3. No evidence she ever had it.
    4. Reah does not drop the pendant. You only find it on her body after PPetrus kills her. thus it is almost 100% likely the pendant belongs to Petrus not reah. Therefore it is unlikely to be realted to the maidens.
    5. Mostly agree.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by Siegleyn on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:54 pm

    I know I am making VERY big assumptions.
    Oh, I think I should post why I think he is in Anor Londo. Many people think he kills the firekeepers to gain either humanity, kill them because they are female and he loves Fina so much (But he knows about Rhea and doesn't kill her). Or he's just badshit crazy.
    But I came up with my own ideas (it's a collection of posts I made on that forum. The theory changes in the later post leading to my final conclusion, the beginning is a bit controverse to my current theory. Don't mind me writing Fiona there again.... I just got her name wrong at that time too):

    ------ Post 1, me starting thinking!

    Lautrec

    When you release him he says he's going to do you a favor. Not now, but soon.
    This makes me think that he is trying to stop you from blindly following these deceiving gods.

    He's out to murder the Firekeepers, prevent the linking of fires. You also see a dead firekeeper in the same exact church you find him.
    Gwynevere gives you the task of linking them. It's her room where he dies right before when you find him. Who does he die to? Gwyndolin, the truth behind gwynevere who truly wants the fire linked.

    Lautrec also says after killing the Firekeeper: "This firekeeper has served me well, but enough with her. I have business to attend to...up above." Up above means Anor londo, where Gwynevere is.
    Like Yurt in DS he may be on a secret mission to end the age/power of fire.

    Or he is just badshit crazy; Like his armor shows what he stands for, gold covered in blood but with Fina's loving embrace displayed on it. He may also be just driven mad because he thought or thinks Fiona truly loves him. Maybe that's why he only kills females.
    ------

    ------ Post 2

    Lautrec says when you invade him: " Well, look at you. I thought you were wiser, but I thought wrong! Tis a terrible pity. Like a moth flittering towards a flame. You fellows? No? Don't you agree?" The flame stuck out to me as well as the I thought you wiser part.

    And: "So, here we go again! How many times will these lambs rush to slaughter? Well, let's get it over with."

    And he says: "I am free. Now I can get back to work…" "I have a rather, pressing matter to attend to up above. That Keeper has served me well, but… enough with her."

    What's his work? Killing the Keepers? How did the firekeeper serve him and why does he call her "unclean"?

    ( Dude replied me there later:

    What do you mean when you say who does he die to? The player kills him when you invade his world.
    )

    His Armor being in Anor Lando outside Gwynevere's room makes me think he was doing what the player is doing at one point but realized that he was being used by Gwyndolin. That theory doesn't really fit with my other one above.

    ------ Post 3, final conclusion


    I don't even think Lautrec is an undead even if he says so.Actually the player invades him, which means he's human. Why whould he want to kill you anyway if he isn't hollowed.(wtf is the Black Eye ). My guess is that he knows what's going on, and he's on a secret mission to prevent kindling the fire and kill all those who try including the player (NOTE: There I draw the connection to Velka and/or Gwynevere).
    That would explain the Black Eye Orb.
    He also doesn't take the Firekeeper Souls with him as far as I know. Or at least he doesn't consume them. Or he's undead and needs humanity like everyone else and the Firekeeper Souls, who are his target anyway, can serve his cause by killing them for humanity. But it really doesn't look like he's using it.

    Well, that's one of the three theories I have. The other one is the crazy theory including Fiona like you said and the other one is that he was deceived by the gods somehow.
    ------

    As far for Flann; the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
    He's the only other god not related to Gwyn or other gods mentioned in the lore. But by mentioning that the Carim woreship other gods and even older gods then Gwyn (or at least the fire-linked Gwyn vers.2) the only gods we can think of is him. Especially with his title. Maybe he created the First Flame and wouldn't even be affected by extinguishing it.
    And by the way, the only rulers are the followers of Gwyn. The remaining gods rule because Gwyn rules. The First Flame most likely created the first race during the age of Fog, the Gods but it doesn't mean they die or disappear when the flame extinguishes. The Humans would disappear too, wouldn't they? Since they are related to the Pygmy. Normal humans posess their own humanity, most likely a piece of the Pygmy. Dark Soul. Humans branded by the Darksign have to gather this humanity.
    So if someone says, extinguishing the Flame makes the gods disappear says also the humans disappear. But it actually takes away the power of the Lord Souls, including the Darksign.

    Lautrec kills only the Firekeepers and people who try to avenge them. So he's fighting the Fire and the people who want to maintain Gwyn's power, like he thinks the player does when you use the Black Eye Orb.

    It's not even necessary for my theory that Gwynevere and Flann actually live in Carim. It doesn't say he actually leaves there. Just that people woreship him. So Lautric can receive a quest from Gwynevere even if she's not living in Carim.


    Last edited by Siegleyn on Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:27 pm; edited 10 times in total


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    DoughGuy
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    Re: Pendant Theories

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:01 pm

    Ok as long as you recognise that you're making big assumptions Im happy. I just didnt want you to think there was evidence supporting your idea when there wasn't. I myself am not quite sure about Lautrec. He's blessed by a goddess of favour and protection yet goes around murdering people. The thing is all the gods want the age of fire to continue,because if it ends they lose their power. So unless Lautrec is working for Velka there is no reason for him to kill the firekeepers because they would be on his lords side.

    I dont think lautrecs plan is as big as the chosen undeads. i think he's working on a smaller scale, a pawn while you are a queen.


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    Re: Pendant Theories

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