PvP: Help/Tips needed

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    Veilchen

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    PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:59 pm

    Hi fellow DS gamers!

    First of all I have to apologize for my bad english. I am well aware that nine years of english in school were not enough to teach me this language tongue 

    With that said: Like the topic indicates, I would be very thankful if some of you could give me tips for PvP in general. Of course I have read a lot of guides on the internet (like the ones here) and watched some videos on youtube. Altough i haven´t checked the whole forum I think that my problems were not mentioned here before. If I am wrong, I apologize for wasting your time.

    After some training I am now decent at avoiding backstabs, I even pulled off some counter backstabs which I am quite proud of (I am not very good at this game silly ). But I am having a lot of trouble with people playing very defensive. I am too stupid to BS them, for some reason i can't do the unlock-run-past-shoulder-and-hit-BS thing. Even when I dodgeroll past my opponent when he tries to hit me.

    I know that this must be my fault, I am not blaming the game or something like that, but I can't figure out what I am doing wrong. Can anybody give me some tips about that?

    Another question: When do you actually try the run-past-shoulder thing (I am sure that there is a word for that, I just don´t know it^^). Everytime I go for it my opponent just smacks me in the face as soon as I am in range. Am I doing it too obvious?

    Thank´s to everyone who read my post and of course I am thankful for all tips!

    SL: 68
    Using: Uchigatana (Chaos +5) and this cool looking Ciaran set +5. For Pyromancy I go with Great Combustion and Fire Surge (don't have more attunement slots), Bloodshield +15
    Build: Should finally end up like this: http://mmdks.com/343d
    K/D-Ratio so far: 171 invasions, 28 failed, 137 deaths and 6 kills (please don't mention that I suck, I know that biggrin )

    Hope that helps

    PS: I really tried to read through most of the posts here, so if my exact problem has been answered elsewhere and I just haven't seen it, I am sorry (and I will feel like an idiot).


    Last edited by reim0027 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : minified url)
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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:03 pm

    Piviot bs, and yes, you're being too obvious, or you're trying it against veterans who arn't ever going to fall for it (the last time it happened to me was months ago)

    while i'm at it, +15 will deal more damage than chaos. 2 damage types = 2 defenses to punch.

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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:12 pm

    I'm not very good at locked BS, but I find unlocked pivots pretty easy if they're attacking and not staggering me, they're staggered, or attempting a parry.  I would watch the videos again for the timing very specifically if I were you.  As for your build:

    - Uchi +15 wil do more damage, because it isn't split damage.  You have all the dex scaling for that so you should take advantage.

    - Drop chaos storm and use tempest, which hurts just as much and uses 1 less slot.  The lava is pretty useful on GCFB but less so on chaos storm, which people have already done everything possible to escape.

    - You could rework the armor to get a bit more poise and retain ninja flipping

    - You're a bit frail in HP, but nothing awful.

    Buildwise you're fine, I think you need to start analyzing your poise against theirs and realizing when you can trade or not.  Your weapon isn't useless for criticals, but it's not amazing.  Kats are an r1 spam dps or hit-and-roll type weapon.  If you can stagger them in 2 hits and can hit them 1st, r1 spam is worth considering.  If you can't, the latter + parries/BS are all you have.  Don't get caught in a stunlock by trading with people you can't trade with.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:18 pm

    Thanks for your quick responses!

    And thanks for the work on my build Forum Pirate. Good that I am still able to adjust it happy . And I think that realizing when I can trade or not IS one big thing I have to work on, TheMelnTeam. I am usually to busy trying to avoid being backstabed, that takes up all my concentration so far^^

    But if Dark Souls taught me one thing then it is patience, so I am going to do another 100 invasions or so with the +15 uchigatana and the pyromancies you´ve suggested. And of course I will take another look at the youtube videos about backstabing.

    Thanks for your help again, I'll let you know how my PvP matches went!

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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:33 am

    Hello again!

    Things have slightly improved since last time, altough I am still struggling with backstabing people. At least I am not going for stupid trades any more, it seems like patience is the name of the game in most situations (your tips helped me a lot!).

    My statistic improved, but most of the time I was lucky with my invasions. It was either only one opponent or my enemie was not very used to PvP, so I don't think that I have achieved much lol .

    If it is not too annoying to answer my noob questions I would be grateful if you could tell me something about parrying. I was able to parry quite a lot, but it seems to me that most of the time I am just getting lucky. I just try to anticipate when my opponent might attack but not in the way I read it on the internet. Some guides talk about reading your opponents attacks which I am clearly not. Usually I am just like "maybe now?" and if I am able to parry, it just seems like pure luck. Is there any way to learn how to improve in this case or is it just a matter of time until you get better at it?

    And another question about facing multiple enemies. What I have seen so far you either try to lure someone out so you can take them on one at a time (which doesnt work for me because I am too bad to kill someone in a reasonable amount of time before others join the fun and either kill me or force me back again) or just going for the host (which usually ends up with me dying to a backstab). Any advice here?

    Thanks again for the tips you gave me so far! I would like to repay you for this, but I doubt that I can give you tips about Dark Souls^^
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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by wretchedsausage on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:04 am

    Parrying is very difficult to learn in PVP, and requires quote a lot of practice(at least in my experience). The best way to learn how is to get somebody to practice with you. get them to use various un-upgraded weapons, and you use a Target Shield or Buckler Shield, and practice the timing for each weapon type. whilst this will not make you learn how to parry all weapons, it will give you a good idea as to when to parry for a lot of weapons in each type. 






    By the way, your English is fantastic. I would never have known it was not your first language, so be proud of how good it is, instead of apologising. Your English skills are better than some of the native speaking people on these forums.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:05 pm

    wretchedsausage wrote:Parrying is very difficult to learn in PVP, and requires quote a lot of practice(at least in my experience). The best way to learn how is to get somebody to practice with you. get them to use various un-upgraded weapons, and you use a Target Shield or Buckler Shield, and practice the timing for each weapon type. whilst this will not make you learn how to parry all weapons, it will give you a good idea as to when to parry for a lot of weapons in each type. 

    By the way, your English is fantastic. I would never have known it was not your first language, so be proud of how good it is, instead of apologising. Your English skills are better than some of the native speaking people on these forums.

    First of all: thanks for your kind words about my english, much appreciated. You should have been my english teacher! biggrin 

    The "get somebody to practice with you" thing sounds like a good idea. It is just hard to find a partner if none of your friends are playing Dark Souls. Do you think it is possible to just ask for help in a forum? I find it hard to believe that anybody would be interested in trying to make a noob better at PvP. Sounds frustrating, even to me lol 

    If parrying would be just as easy as in PvE... Especially against fast weapons you pretty much have to pary like a million years before your enemie even starts his attack because of latency. But again, it's probably just me because I am fairly new to PvP in this game.

    Anyways, thanks for your reply! Amazing how much help i get here!


    Edit: Why is my text black???
    Edit 2: Found the problem...
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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:26 pm



    Yes you can ask here. It may or may not work, depending on when you ask.

    With faster weapons you often have to parry before you see the attack start, so its not possible to do it by sight, you must guess.



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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:55 pm

    I still suck @ parrying and when I actually do get the parry I'm too surprised to do the riposte


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:25 pm

    Just some tips from my perspective:
    - Drop the DWGR, it's mainly a crutch and can be done without.
    - Up your DEX to 45, swap Chaos Storm for Fire Tempest, and get Great Fireball.
    - Learn to do lure fireballs with fire surge. (use fire surge to bait them into strafing then throw an unlocked fireball at them.)
    - Start by using poise, but if you want to get better, use lower poise and work on toggle escaping.
    - Make the Uchi +15, and try the Iaito when you have a chance.
    - Swap Pricilla's Dagger for a Rapier or a Silver Tracer, swap to these when you land a parry. The damage you do with the riposte will increase by 50+%.
    - Bloodshield isn't really useful except for looks. You can use I-frames to roll through bleed and you can buy 99 blooming clumps for 50,000 souls.
    - Don't rush into technical moves, (reverse rolls, setup parries, ravioli steps, or weapon switches.)
    - Don't keep score on whether you win or lose. Score doesn't mean anything, when you can feel you grew in skill greatly, that's a much better satisfaction than a score.

    Also, I think this build will suit well, I kept the armor similar because I figured you liked it. I also reworked the build down 20 SL's and made it a viable SL99 dex/pyro.
    http://mmdks.com/37l1


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by St1cky1cky1775 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:15 pm

    Chaos is a very nice blade for SL120, but it's not the greatest for your level.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by dreamforger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:26 am

    I feel your pain, Veilchen.  I've only just started PvP in the last few days.  The first time I was really, really nervous.  I joined the forest hunters to get variation and frequent attempts. 

    My first invasion, I took three steps back, fell off the edge of my summon point and plummeted to my death doh .  I felt so ashamed.  I've so far had about twenty or so fights, and I've got one kill by myself - everything else has been won by another invader helping out, or me being killed.  It takes a lot of getting used to, it really does.  I'm terrible at it - I haven't had a successful parry yet, I sometimes get beaten in one or two hits, I've been outnumbered many times - but keep at it. 

    I'm used to playing PvE with a katana, but for some reason it just isn't working for me in PvP.  However, I switched to my scythe and and I just 'feel' more comfortable (and it does pack a punch).  As others have said, keep at it, don't count how many wins you have, just keep going.  I try to see it as practice, not winning, and it kind of helps me until I become more proficient.  Good luck.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Devokai on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:27 am

    My best advice for anyone new to pvp is be aware, but don't be scared. It's great that you've done some research on how to perform and avoid backstabs. But don't make it your priority to look for them everywhere. What wins you fights is knowing your range compared to theirs (spacing), Establishing any pattern they might have and not sticking to one yourself, and having access to a variety of weaponry will make your life so much easier as some weapons simply have a better time of it against some others. To a lesser extent observing their poise and being wary of when you could possibly land that stun combo will help, but it's not crucial.

    And as for your trouble against defensive players define defensive and I might be able to give you some tips. There's plenty of ways people can drag on a fight.
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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:29 am

    IDK but me thinks you're trying PvP too serious. See I was a Str weapons guys who got BS'd constantly. But I still managed to win. My first tip for PvP is to learning counter backstab. PvP is all around backstabs, since they do the most damage. If you learn counter backstab you can defend yourself against backstabs and even do backstabs if your opponent is stupid enough. 

    Next is roll backstab. This one is optional, imo. I never learned to do them, nor I did needed one in order to win. These are very good against Str weapons and very offensive players.

    Third would be parry. I never try to parry, unless it's a roll attack. Even it is, I never trust one because lag is a *****. Sometimes it'll fail. I say don't rely on parry. 

    Fourth would be toggle escape. This is a glitch but it's the only counter to stunlock. This is basic for surviving in PvP.

    Always have a back up spell. I recommend Great Combustion and Dark Bead. These are great for finish off. 

    Bows/Crossbows. These are great for luring backstabs and keeping pressure on the guy.

    Always have a back up spear. Spear is the most effectively PvP weapon. When I'm using Str weapons I swap to a Demon's Spear when HP gets low. The thing have saved me many times.


    Dagger or rapier back up. This is useful when your enemy has very low HP. A simple poke can end the fight.

    DWGR. It is better than the fast roll. Can save you from any spell. It has crazy framerates and very useful for roll backstab. 

    Shields and bows are the spear weakness. 

    Many of these tactics (counter, roll bs) can be found on youtube. I say don't take to seriously, try to find your favorite playstyle so you feel comfortable. Final tip should be always try to get your build as efficient as possible.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:50 pm

    First of all: sorry for my late answer, I have been on vacation Sun 
    This is going to be a very long post. Of course it is enough if you just read the part where I have quoted your post (or a part of it)!

    WOW! I read a lot about why the Dark Souls community is considered the best etc but those things have been said about other communities in the past as well (and most of the times there were plenty of s**theads who had nothing better to do than insult other people and arguing about whos wrong or right). But after this amazing amount of help I got here and the quality of your posts... I am speachless! Thank you!

    Unfortunately I was not able to test/learn/use what you guys have suggested recently because I just returned home but beside that, I will try to answer everyone of you. You deserve that for the time you have invested here!

    Forum Pirate wrote:Yes you can ask here. It may or may not work, depending on when you ask.

    With faster weapons you often have to parry before you see the attack start, so its not possible to do it by sight, you must guess.
    I haven't seen this video so far, thanks for that! So it is possible to parry slow weapons by sight? I am confused biggrin 

    jimmyc0341 wrote:I still suck @ parrying and when I actually do get the parry I'm too surprised to do the riposte
     I know exactly how you feel!

    SadPanda wrote:Just some tips from my perspective... (cut because of my very long post)
    Thanks a lot for that post! Must have taken you some time to write all that down.

    Yeah my pyromancies sucked I already switched them biggrin
    The lure fireballs thing is a little bit too much for me. Could you please explain that in detail?
    Uchi +15 = done!
    Bloodshield isn't really usefull? You have just destroyed my world sad ^^
    The score thing was meant to tell me when I am improving, but I guess I am not only improving when I start to win consistently. So yeah, you´re right. I will stop this!
    I can't say much about the build you have made for me because after all the changes people keep making with my original build, I think that I don't have any idea about a proper PvP build biggrin But thanks, I will try this out with another charackter (already sl 117 with this one sad )

    St1cky1cky1775 wrote:Chaos is a very nice blade for SL120, but it's not the greatest for your level.
    Although many people told me already, your post confirms what they are saying. Gives me more confidence that the +15 is right happy 

    dreamforger wrote:I feel your pain, Veilchen.  I've only just started PvP... (cut that because my post is already too long^^)
    I think we both are in the same boat (can you say this in english?^^). Are you playing on the PS3? If so, maybe we could practice with each other. Our skill level seems to be about the same happy 

    Devokai wrote:My best advice for anyone new to pvp is be aware, but don't be scared. It's great that... (cut as well)
    Wait, so I need a variety of weapons to be able to counter other weapons? I didn't know that and it scares me^^ I am not able to play properly with the uchigatana which I am kind of used to. I am afraid of what will happen if I try to PvP with an ultra greatsword for example biggrin 

    WyrmHero wrote:IDK but me thinks you're trying PvP too serious. See I was a... (cut cut cut happy )
    Thanks for your help! A question about the DWGR. SadPanda (awesome name btw!) told me that I should drop the ring, so what now? Should I keep it or switch it with something else? Yet again, I am confused biggrin 

    Sry for this very long post, I thought about splitting it up, but the result would be the same. Wall of text. I will put some information at the beginning to spare people the agony of reading through all of this^^

    Edit: Corrected some mistakes, tried to make this some kind of organized (didn't work sad )
    Edit 2: Corrected more mistakes and I am still sure that my english sucks. Some of my sentences seem weird...

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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:37 pm

    Devokai wrote:And as for your trouble against defensive players define defensive and I might be able to give you some tips. There's plenty of ways people can drag on a fight.
    (Decided to exclude this from my previous post)

    It is hard for me to define "my" defensive players because I don't have much experience in Dark Souls PvP. Nevertheless I will try to do so.

    Defensive players that I have faced so far just keep backpaddling in circles with their shields up and when I try to close the distance, they just R1 me or blow a great combustion in my face (same problem as I have mentioned about the pivot BS). I tried to keep close and kick them from time to time (don't know if that is good in this kind of situations?) but if they are just walking backwards my karate move isn't hitting them.

    I had this awkward fight where a guy with the silver knight armor and the lightning spear just kited me through whole anor londo (really I followed him from the second bonfire to the elevator at the start of anor londo with many circles in between; gosh that took some time sad ) and everytime i tried to attack I just got R1ned. After weeks, at least it felt like weeks, he killed me eventually just with this tactic. I felt so ashamed because I wasn't able to do anything. But he was nice, he even bowed after he beat me up^^ Of course I tried to dodge his attacks because I knew they were coming. People keep telling me that if my opponent is too obvious, I will have an easy win. Not true for me biggrin 

    And while I am talking about bows. This seems to be very dangerous. I always bow when I am confronting my enemie. This got me killed a lot biggrin
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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by White Knight Wulf on Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:41 pm

    It's up to u if u use the ring or not. Panda is right in that its a crutch but wyrm is right in that is great. There are better options then the DWGR. If you use it u get the max speed and I-frames but give up a ring slot when you could put havels on and have better armor and a good player can make the I-frames of the DWGR useless. Oh and wyrm haven't seen you in a while. How you been.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Devokai on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 pm

    Veilchen wrote:
    Devokai wrote:And as for your trouble against defensive players define defensive and I might be able to give you some tips. There's plenty of ways people can drag on a fight.
    (Decided to exclude this from my previous post)

    It is hard for me to define "my" defensive players because I don't have much experience in Dark Souls PvP. Nevertheless I will try to do so.

    Defensive players that I have faced so far just keep backpaddling in circles with their shields up and when I try to close the distance, they just R1 me or blow a great combustion in my face (same problem as I have mentioned about the pivot BS). I tried to keep close and kick them from time to time (don't know if that is good in this kind of situations?) but if they are just walking backwards my karate move isn't hitting them.

    I had this awkward fight where a guy with the silver knight armor and the lightning spear just kited me through whole anor londo (really I followed him from the second bonfire to the elevator at the start of anor londo with many circles in between; gosh that took some time sad ) and everytime i tried to attack I just got R1ned. After weeks, at least it felt like weeks, he killed me eventually just with this tactic. I felt so ashamed because I wasn't able to do anything. But he was nice, he even bowed after he beat me up^^ Of course I tried to dodge his attacks because I knew they were coming. People keep telling me that if my opponent is too obvious, I will have an easy win. Not true for me biggrin 

    And while I am talking about bows. This seems to be very dangerous. I always bow when I am confronting my enemie. This got me killed a lot biggrin

    Partly in response to being scared of using different weapons. What I was trying to say is that there are a variety of different weapons you could choose for different situations, especially since I know you use the uchi, it's a 5 weight, 14 str requirement dex weapon. There are so many choices you can have in your bag such as great scythe, gargoyle tail axe (great poise breaking for a dex weapon) the normal scythe, and if you have 1 more weight and 16 str there are other options for you. Chaos Blade, Life Hunt (a great weapon for teaching turtlers a lesson) Silverknight weapons and the Flamberge a bleed causing dex scaling greatsword.

    As for your problems with defensive players it seems like you're telling me you have problems with spear and rapier turtles. While some don't condone this I'd be limiting you if I didn't link you to a tutorial on dead angling. Also having a quick pyro spell like combustion or black flame is a valid tactic as well to beat their chip damage and wear their stamina down.

    Not an experienced user of this forum so I hope this doesn't post a big window. But here you go, I hope this helps you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wk7-Iy7-8A

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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by Veilchen on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:34 am

    Wolfof Phyrexia wrote:It's up to u if u use the ring or not. Panda is right in that its a crutch but wyrm is right in that is great. There are better options then the DWGR. If you use it u get the max speed and I-frames but give up a ring slot when you could put havels on and have better armor and a good player can make the I-frames of the DWGR useless. Oh and wyrm haven't seen you in a while. How you been.

    Because I am not a good player I'll stay with the DWGR^^ And ninja flipping looks fking awesome! biggrin 

    Devokai wrote:
    Partly in response to being scared of using different weapons. What I was trying to say is that there are a variety of different weapons you could choose for different situations, especially since I know you use the uchi, it's a 5 weight, 14 str requirement dex weapon. There are so many choices you can have in your bag such as great scythe, gargoyle tail axe (great poise breaking for a dex weapon) the normal scythe, and if you have 1 more weight and 16 str there are other options for you. Chaos Blade, Life Hunt (a great weapon for teaching turtlers a lesson) Silverknight weapons and the Flamberge a bleed causing dex scaling greatsword.

    As for your problems with defensive players it seems like you're telling me you have problems with spear and rapier turtles. While some don't condone this I'd be limiting you if I didn't link you to a tutorial on dead angling. Also having a quick pyro spell like combustion or black flame is a valid tactic as well to beat their chip damage and wear their stamina down. 

    Not an experienced user of this forum so I hope this doesn't post a big window. But here you go, I hope this helps you. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wk7-Iy7-8A

    I watched the video three times now and I still don't get the angle of the different weapons. It seems very random to me. I'll guess there is a lot of training needed before you can do this effectively.

    Also, the duel at the end of the video is amazing. You must have quite some nerves to attack while at about 1 HP. I would just run for my life biggrin .

    Thanks for the video!!
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    SadPanda
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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

    Post by SadPanda on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:00 pm

    Veilchen wrote:
    Wolfof Phyrexia wrote:It's up to u if u use the ring or not. Panda is right in that its a crutch but wyrm is right in that is great. There are better options then the DWGR. If you use it u get the max speed and I-frames but give up a ring slot when you could put havels on and have better armor and a good player can make the I-frames of the DWGR useless. Oh and wyrm haven't seen you in a while. How you been.

    Because I am not a good player I'll stay with the DWGR^^ And ninja flipping looks fking awesome! biggrin 

    Devokai wrote:
    Partly in response to being scared of using different weapons. What I was trying to say is that there are a variety of different weapons you could choose for different situations, especially since I know you use the uchi, it's a 5 weight, 14 str requirement dex weapon. There are so many choices you can have in your bag such as great scythe, gargoyle tail axe (great poise breaking for a dex weapon) the normal scythe, and if you have 1 more weight and 16 str there are other options for you. Chaos Blade, Life Hunt (a great weapon for teaching turtlers a lesson) Silverknight weapons and the Flamberge a bleed causing dex scaling greatsword.

    As for your problems with defensive players it seems like you're telling me you have problems with spear and rapier turtles. While some don't condone this I'd be limiting you if I didn't link you to a tutorial on dead angling. Also having a quick pyro spell like combustion or black flame is a valid tactic as well to beat their chip damage and wear their stamina down. 

    Not an experienced user of this forum so I hope this doesn't post a big window. But here you go, I hope this helps you. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wk7-Iy7-8A

    I watched the video three times now and I still don't get the angle of the different weapons. It seems very random to me. I'll guess there is a lot of training needed before you can do this effectively.

    Also, the duel at the end of the video is amazing. You must have quite some nerves to attack while at about 1 HP. I would just run for my life biggrin .

    Thanks for the video!!
    Dead angling is difficult when you begin, but it gets incredibly easy once you practice. Try using a weapon with a large sweep, like the Zweihander. After you master that, try something harder like a longsword or an axe.


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    Re: PvP: Help/Tips needed

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