Make the Hosts Toast

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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:46 pm

    You really can't trust anybody you don't know in this game.  You just can't.  You can make educated guesses based on the situation (and with experience, they'll usually be correct), but just because the host and phantom make it SEEM like a "FC", doesn't mean it isn't actually "BS the invader when he turns away".

    I have it happen all the time in the forest, but burg/township/etc all do it also.  Most recent time I was dueling the host when the FH stood by...then backstabbed me when I started winning (pretty impressive for him actually, I heard him and almost caught him in stunlock).  I ran across the bridge, dropped down, rolled back to evade hosts plunge attack.  3x zwei hit stunlock barely did half of the host's health (!), but then the idiot FH plunging attacked towards me...which ordinarily would be a good move but since the host was there also he one-shotted us both since we were both hurt, ending his collaberation big grin.  I apparently invaded some SL 200+ trying to "surprise" gank, as if anybody would be surprised by it anymore.  I like these situations better than traditional ganks though because the "observer" is often far enough that he can't save his buddy, as opposed to jumping me on spawn.

    I'll happily kill a host, but never when there's a red standing there ready to fight me.  If you attack the red, it might be a gank, but if you attack the host it will DEFINITELY turn into a gank even if it WAS a FC, unless you can 1-shot the host (maybe power within + hornet + rapier or something, dunno).  Fighting the host after is fine regardless of whether it's FC or not IMO.  Like many say, everyone has the humanity so it's not that big of a deal for him to reverse hollowing and spend 10 seconds or less clearing the place out again if I win.


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:12 pm

    I think a lot of people misunderstand. If you are hosting a FC then you don't have it in a high traffic area just because people will come along and "ruin" your fun. That being said, it gets annoying to invade in the same FC several times in a row. I'm not saying anything bad about FC; it is just cheap to farm souls under the guise of a FC. If it is a realy FC then the host wouldn't mind dueling because he would have tons of humanity and want to play as well.

    Actually Walter, I play more to have fun, which is why I don't necessarily care about winning. I honestly just wondered if anyone else felt the same. Look Skyward


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:40 pm

    I play courtesy by ear, which includes deciding based on my opponents actions if i'm dueling or simply bashing their face in.
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:06 pm

    Totally, I'm not saying I do this when I see two people playing fairly, just when they play unfairly or it's apparent that the host is new to the game and is doing this to get out of a fight. It is interesting to see how different people see things differently though. 
     
    I think my feelings towards this come from being ganked so much that I realized that most hosts and phantoms will just turn on you the moment they decide they don't want you anymore. The concept of being used bothers me, so I make sure that they see this: You Died


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Walter_White on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:11 pm

    hey its andres wrote:If it is a realy FC then the host wouldn't mind dueling because he would have tons of humanity and want to play as well.
    hey its andres wrote:Now I just pretend to duel then kill the host as quickly as possible.
    hey its andres wrote:I'm sure most of these people will play fairly....Normally if you do kill the phantom then these hosts will summon someone else, and they won't fight you at all. That's a good time to BS them though. biggrin
    hey its andres wrote:Totally, I'm not saying I do this when I see two people playing fairly, just when they play unfairly

    opportunistic, or only confused?

    i am confused - do you sneek up behind a host who summons you one combatant after the other and bs him, or do you bow before him to make clear you now gonna fight him?
    Is the sneek up behind a host and bs him your definition of a fair fight?
    Is summoning one combatant after the other for you unfair in your eyes so you got your justification for pretenting to duel and bs the host, when he isn't expecting you?

    hey its andres wrote:
    Actually Walter, I play more to have fun, which is why I don't necessarily care about winning.
    hey its andres wrote:....so I make sure that they see this: You Died

    again confused....in fact putting together your quotes is sufficient, they need no more annotations, only a little bit sarcasm


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:38 pm

    Stop fighting, if you're not happy about how someone plays the game, go outside and write it on a note. 

    Don't give me any of that "We are debating" bull crap either, I know a fight when I see one.

    If you two honestly need to bitterly argue over what is the right thing to do when invading someone's fight club or soul farming scam then do it in PMs. 

    This thread was about how he should act if he ever invaded a world where the host summoned opponents for him, if he wants humanity, and wants to kill hosts like a proper invader, he is going to kill the host. If he does it in dirty ways who cares? It's the host's fault for thinking that the phantom was here to stay, even if it was in the burg. Which honestly is not a clean place full of dandy skill based duels. It's a place where ex-forest hunters invade/drop RSS so they can use their hornet ring gank spank tactics in 1v1s and die-hard invaders go to find a little action, even if they must resort to the place, Some people enjoy it, so im not bashing on them, but I don't like it there. 

    There is no definition of dark souls honour, a moral can be different for everyone. Wanna know what I consider an honourable fight?

    No Lagswitching.
    No Hacking. 
    No Ganking.

    That's all, everything else is acceptable to me, of course I restrict myself from spamming magicks or backstabbing but that's just my personal fighting code.

    Everyone is different, if you're not happy about someone's moral and honour code, then just
    Wilkinson3424 wrote:go outside and write it on a note.
    Not here.

    tongue


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:57 pm

    @Walter_White

    Damn dude, if you weren't so condescending, the wisdom in which you're speaking would be heard MUCH more clearly.

    @Wilkinson

    Not bad advice, but it'll never work lol.
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:12 pm

    XD regardless of a fight I shall admit defeat at that hands of an enemy. Prostration Consistency and clarity are important and I have failed to enforce either so I shall clarify things consistently. 

    Sun Walter_White is the greatest hero of them all! Sun
     

    So now I give to you what I am trying to say:
    Wilkinson actually said most of it. My main problem is not with gankers, but with the awkward situation when I have a host that does not want to duel me at all. I don't mind a duel or two, but after a while I'd like to fight the host then go about my business. So I'd like to know what most people do in this situation. Again, sorry for not being clear about what I'm trying to say blushing 

    Let it be known that I have no problem with Fight Clubs. Especially if I participate in forum FCs lol!  They should probably not be in high traffic areas like the Burg or Township, but that's another issue entirely, and more of a problem for the FC than invaders.


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:28 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    hey its andres wrote:......Hm, well maybe I'm just being a douche.....

    I don't think so.

    Even with whats been said I wouldn't sit there for 5-10 minutes or anything.  I'd just go kill him too and move on.  Maybe B/C out, don't think it matters really.

    And frankly, I'm not sure how it all turned into this.

    I'm in the middle of my DMB build, and when she's done, there will be no mercy...for anyone...anywhere. F/C or no F/C. I'm going straight for the host, I'm not bowing, and her tactics will be super-cheap.

    Lift 
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:33 pm

    DM characters are fun to be aggressive with because I always justify it as punishing the guilty. devil 

    It's kind of ironic because, in general, I find nicer DW than I do DM blades although with that ^ mentality I guess it makes sense. 

    POLICE BRUTALITY


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:02 pm


    "The Guilty Pay The Price"

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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:07 pm

    ^I do that to Gankers in the forest all the time lol!


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:21 pm

    You also get a +2 from me for:

    -Stating your case in a logical and inquisitive fashion.

    -Not trolling back.

    -Not creating a rant thread.

    -Questioning your own logic.

    -Responding calmly and thoughtfully in the face of opposition.

    -Just being cool. cool 
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:40 pm

    Hooray! Thank you big hug It's just a lot easier to admit you're wrong then to carry out a pointless argument. 


    So Animaal, if you invade a host that doesn't want to fight what do you do?


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:48 pm

    Give them this message:

     
    The Eye The Eye
    You Died 

    Then I'll prolly offer to help or something.Shrug ...

    ...maybe not though.devil

    ***edit***

    I only invade with my DMB sooooo...ya.....Lift 
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Walter_White on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:04 am

    Wilkinson3424 wrote:
    Don't give me any of that "We are debating" bull crap either, I know a fight when I see one.

    Never stated, that this is NOT a fight - i invaded this thread and wanted to see blood. After the first phantom was down with a cheap trick from me i went to BS the host to death Well What is it 

    @ andres and animaal: i smell subtle irony....nevertheless sorry for beeing an uncool douche, i raged about the (new) attitude of no rules, everything goes. There where times when the people decided to not play by the unwritten rules.
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Online#Online%20Play-PvP%20Etiquette%20and%20Respectful%20Playing
    You never could trust everybody, but now you can't trust anybody because everbody states, that there are no rules. You see all the paranoia in this thread - everybody waits for the BS out of nothing when finding some guys who seems to duel - even Burg was cool once. Now the Forest is everywhere....

    But no one dares to say, that they don't like some ways of playing, because the no rules / fight to win guys at once jump at him and gank him.



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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:12 am

    I heed by the golden rule.

    If it's an invasion, anything goes and expect exactly that from your opponent as well.
    If it's a summoned duel, you can expect some sort of "rules" among the fighters, but don't rely on them.

    The amount of times I got attacked while doing a gesture, or a buff as been reduced to 0 thanks to this.

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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by sure-magicians on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:29 am

    @Walter: I don't like some ways of playing, and play by my own rules, which are pretty simple; 
    I don't heal and don't fish and don't care for buffs, just wanna have fun.
    If that makes me a target for the 'no rules/fight to win guys' so be it.
    I like a bit of rules to be honest, even in a game that has none...


    When I started playing online for the first time I used to block everyone that annoyed me with how they played, but after a while I found that it was my inability to deal with that playstyle that annoyed me.

    And instead of seeing it as a loss I began to see it as learning to adapt to whatever playstyle my opponent had, and from then on it only got better.
    I still lost a lot but I also began to enjoy the game more, and I slowly got better in countering the things I hated before.


    What really enlightened me is when my son started playing the game, he is 10, he uses every tactic and advantage the game offers him to win.
    I watched him invade, even just now, and he racks up indictments like crazy, he heals, runs into mobs, taunts, fishes the whole nine yards, whatever it takes to win.
    Best part is when he gets hatemail, he can't stop laughing after I translate it, although certain words do not need translation...

    Learning to deal with a playstyle like he has is part of the game for me, I don't enjoy dodging dark magic but the only way to learn is to do it.
    If I get tired of it I play with my friends, who, for the most part, play with similar mindsets as my own.

    I don't play to win, but for fun, and personally I get the most enjoyment out of winning if I follow my own ruleset, regardless of how my opponent fights or acts.
    There are so many ways to play the game, people have fun in different ways, and it is a game after all...

    If I encounter a playstyle I do not enjoy, and lose to it, I just shrug it off and move on to the next fight.
    If I encounter 10 in a row, I relocate or see if any of my friends are playing so I can fight them...


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Walter_White on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:56 am

    i don't mind playstyles or using magic / chain bs - etc. we trained together to fight this tactics.
    i mind the social engineering / tricking the other to trust you and then BS, or wathever.

    remember my message about my drunk run some days ago with my sl 55 - it ended after 10 invasions and i killed two 3v1 squads (doing the phantoms one by one with the help of environment and then force the host to duel me), two 2v1 squads (same as the 3v1) two honorable duelists and some poor and lonley quester, i fought after they cleared the area. Used only 2 humantiy to heal in the 3v1 fights, never went straight for the host and only done one BS by accident.
    Even though the honorable duelists bowed to me i use llyod on them, to make sure they don't estus - 6 month ago i would've trusted them.

    The run ends with a duelist. We made the secret "hey i'm capable and willing to do a nice duel" sign Wave
    Bow and had an epic duel ending with my death. He wrote me a "gg - close 28hp left" message and i thanked him for killing me at last. That was the best fight of the night!

    you can win if you play by some rules - no need to do fancy stuff


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:59 pm

    i don't mind playstyles or using magic / chain bs - etc. we trained together to fight this tactics.
    i mind the social engineering / tricking the other to trust you and then BS, or wathever.



    You get the full spectrum of personalities online though.  I've invaded wearing nothing or in odd clothing with nothing but fists and run in circles near people punching.  I was frankly amazed how many people will put their weapons away and start swinging fisticuffs, complete with chainstabbing by both parties for a couple points of damage a piece...this in the forest!

    I was actually expecting to stall them, harass with poison knives, jump the chasm, and generally just be a pain, but when they go and turn it into a fun little minigame I can't resist.

    Kicking a hacker off the edge with another invader while wearing nothing but a sack feels amazing though.

    Even though the honorable duelists bowed to me i use llyod on them, to make sure they don't estus - 6 month ago i would've trusted them.



    Not like it matters.  People still have humanity, divine blessings, etc in droves.  I don't even bother with lloyd's unless I can hit a host with it while fighting a ganker; if it's 1v1 I'd rather BS an estus than a DB or mushroom.

    Fighting gankers head on and beating them is fun, but I'm starting to prefer trolling them.

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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:56 pm

    Last night, I was finally able to pvp for about 3-4 hours straight, and would like to share my experiences and how its relevant.

    I hosted in the forest at sl 48 and I'm on my third NG cycle.  This is the build I used: Yojimbo

    I played almost all night with a friend I Skype with.

    DISCLAIMER
    *My first forest  host had 3 DMB miracles, so I've been at it awhile.  I fully understand the forest mentality and have published several threads about it in other forums in what seems like a time long forgotten.

    As you can see, my build is far from being over powered.  Also, keep in mind I was in a Skype chat, and that would make ganking insanely easy imo.





    1) I killed the sorcerer and waited for my buddy's soul sign.  When I got invaded while waiting, almost every catbro expected me to venture out to the  Eastern Armor, or go to the bandit.

    However instead, I would make prism stone happy faces on the ground and spam the "hello" wood carving or the silver pendant.

    If this were me in real life, I would be sitting on the stairs chugging top-shelf estus and rolling up some green blossom.

    I had to resort to poison arrows a couple times because they went afk due to my lack of interest in the pursuit...it was kinda sad.





    2)  Not all, but A LOT of catbros realized what  I was doing and gave me all sorts of "Joy" gestures and "bows".  A couple catbros straight up walked to the stairs and stood and waited.  However, it seemed that they rarely got paired with a partner that understood what was happening, or had a decent level of pvp experience.

    However, my friend and I did manage to have some AWESOME 2 vs 2 fights.






    3)  Of course I was invaded by a couple, "I'm gonna be naked and dance" bros.  While I appreciated the sentiment of fun, punching the trees for 30-60 seconds while I stood there ready to fight simply ended with a couple beads to the head.  I felt kinda bad, but after bowing, backing off, and bowing again, enough is enough.





    4)  Some invaders were clearly upset by my lack of interest in ganking.  A couple catbros ignored my friend and went straight for me.  After several attempts at getting a bs on me with PW, my buddy would eventually get the backstab and end it.

    I showed as much courtesy to these upset catbros as humanly possible.  If they were alone, I dodged...end of story.  I apologize to these catbros for not being a ganker. I know it sounds strange, but I'm being sincere.




    5)  My friend has really come a long way, and I'm really proud of him.  However, there were a couple of things said/talked about, and here's how I handled it.

    Buddy: "I need a flask"
    Me:  "Who's gonna flask him?!?!  Those are reserved for in between fights, use a humanity"

    Buddy: "This jerk is just  backstabbing me"
    Me: "You are letting him, pivot (circle) the other way, and get used to it"

    Buddy: "He's running away...I'll...."
    Me: "Yep, and now you have to fight the ents and him by yourself.  Its your fault, I'm not flasking you."

    Buddy: "HE HEALED!"
    Me: "Yep"




    Now, why would I bring all of this up?

    To say, "This is how you play in the forest?"...no.

    To say, "Real players don't gank!"...?...no.

    To anyone still reading, my PSN is: Mr_Animaaal.  If you invade me in the forest, you can rest assured that you will NOT be ganked.  I will not heal with my estus mid-fight (I will use humanity).  And IF ANY phantom with me backstabs you bowing, I WILL black crystal them out and leave you 1 humanity.

    This is how I play.  I play this way because I like the amount of control it gives me, and because 2 vs 2 in a true "teammate" type of environment is what interests me.  Personally I got tired of 1 vs 1 during the Kiln's popularity.  Its not that I don't enjoy single duels, its just not my preference.

    I know it seems like I might have to go through a hassle to achieve my goal, but when it comes to fruition, its like a wet dream...I love it.

    Through this type of hosting, my buddy was able to experience some of the most epic 2 vs 2 fights this game can offer, and from what I can tell, is starting to become as addicted to the 2 vs 2 as I am.

    I wouldn't have it any other way, but I'll never say, "I'm right and you're wrong".  The only possible fact I can state in this regard is, "I'm happy and having a blast! I hope you are too."
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:35 pm

    Animaaal wrote:I wouldn't have it any other way, but I'll never say, "I'm right and you're wrong".  The only possible fact I can state in this regard is, "I'm happy and having a blast! I hope you are too."
    In the end this is what it comes down to, for all playstyles. Some people use dirty tricks, some people have rules, and some people live in a different world and do all sorts of nonsense. The point is that sometimes people take this game a bit too seriously. Not in regard to winning, but in regard to the actual preferences of other players! 

    For example, I don't gank, but I love ganking because it's a huge challenge. Plus, when another blue invades, sometimes a red as well, the 2v2 fights are, as you stated, a "wet dream" of pleasure. It's amazing!

    However, I do know tons of people who hate the forest's mentality and prefer simple dueling and FCs, and I will agree that it is a let down when you invade people who have a the opposite mentality or your own, but it's just a game and as long as people aren't hacking then you just have to deal with it. 
    Praise the Sun Sun Above all, remember to have fun! Sun Praise the Sun 


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:49 pm

    ^Well said. Bow 
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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Phoenix Rising on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:08 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    If this were me in real life, I would be sitting on the stairs chugging top-shelf estus and rolling up some green blossom.
     

    thumbs up


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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Lasombra2nd on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:08 pm

    I just hate the guys who, when you invade their world, they're waiting right behind you on the spawn point and grease you before you can really even react.

    I realize the danger inherent in invading, but it just seems cheap to me.


    _________________
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    Xbox LIVE GT:  Lasombra II
    Current avatar:  SL109  He's a frackin' Darkwraith Ninja.  A Ninja.

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    Re: Make the Hosts Toast

    Post by Sponsored content


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