Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

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    SadPanda
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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by SadPanda on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:49 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:If they kill you in 1 hit with a bs, its entirely your fualt. Judging lag is a skill and you can account for all but the worst lag to shut down the attempt.

    Functionally, its the same as being parried to be killed in 1 hit, and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.

     But do you have infinite casts with GMW?
    But can the hornet ring be kited until it runs out?
    But does GMW work against Great Magic Barrier?
    But is the hornet ring affected by Vow of Silence?

    '"Judging lag is a skill""
    What?
    Hack
    There is no limit and the ring only effects parries
    No comment
    What? It is a ring not a spell!

    How to use lag and counter it is a skill.
    You did not just encourage hacking.
    Look Skyward 


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:56 pm

    judging lag is a skill though. Lag is variable, but judging it is a skill and its doable, the lag rate in most (of my) matches is fairly consistent, so once i've got a feel fot it I'm in little danger of being surprised by something lag related.


    I find if much less an issue in 1v1.  I mostly PvP invading the forest though, and that's a big issue there.  Sometimes they have to be a LOT closer for that BS than others, and it's not like you can test the reaction time between say a kick and shield recoil or something when you have 2 people bearing down on you.

    As for "not sacrificing anything", that's 100% bogus.  If you run hornet for anything but the extremely rare fast swap riposte, you're giving up one of the following:

    - Poise that allows a trade advantage
    - Several hundred HP
    - Roll speed tier
    - Much more spell damage
    - Extra attunement slot (rarely used)
    - Better stamina recovery

    Not only are you giving one of those up, but you're giving it up for something that might or might not benefit you, depending on whether you land a parry or BS.  Depending on weapon, the damage added might not even match that of other options.  Poise, roll speed, and stamina recovery are all factors in how two weapons match up, directly deciding whether you have more options or fewer.

    What good is a hornet ring if you eat 1 hit and take another 2-3 on stunlock?  If you had wolf on, maybe you didn't take 3 hits, instead taking 1 and then stunning or BSing them...but now you can't even THREATEN poise-stab, because you don't have enough poise and they know it, making you more predictable.

    The opportunity cost of using options should never be forgotten in games like this.  People give up something very real to go for those 1 shot BS, and unless you are getting front-stabbed from all the lag you CAN avoid BS...at least in 1v1.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:00 pm

    You think I actually would encourage hacking? You said infinite cast and told I gave the answer people do but I don't hack. Never say I encourage that.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:23 pm

    Backstabs are too easy.

    There's a reason a lot of people refer to the combat as "Backstab Souls".
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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:37 am

    That's called 'really bad lag' stiff. I've been stunlocked by the claymore while the guy was 50 feet away and facing the opposite direction. everything feels cheap at that level of lag, and really there's just nothing you can do against it, wether its a bs or not.


    For the second time in a week (shocking!) I agree with animal. Personally, I'd just cut the hitbox by 30%. Even with moderate lag, front stabs are gone and in good conditions they actually have to be behind you on your screen (and this isn't even considering the potential of servers to reduce lag)


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:06 pm

    Servers will reduce lag, but it also changes the hit detection and that's huge.  The reason people hate BS in lag is the client-side warping and the ability for hard-animations to ignore other things.  It's a case where the "client side" gets force-updated on you in a bad way.  If you can get a feel for the delay you can sense your peril, but if you can't you can easily eat a backstab before you can evaluate latency (most common vs ganks where you don't have time to feel your opponent out).

    Servers *drastically* alter this equation.  I say this from very strong experience going from Gears of War 2 to Gears of War 3 (before Judgment ruined the series lol).  GoW was peer-to-peer and 3 had servers; the latter is still the best competitive shooter I can think of.  People actually complained that the previously nigh-useless-in-lag starting rifle, the lancer, was overpowered in GoW 3!  Why?  Because people weren't getting client side insta-gib shotgun blasts on people while the lancer fire didn't count anymore.  A lot of people thought it did significantly more damage, when in reality the game was just counting its shots, even as people closed in, more consistently.  Previously a weapon that had shots not count up close very often suddenly had shots count consistently...and an active-reloaded lancer can down someone in a reasonably short period of time (always could).

    What happens in dark souls?  Client side backstab almost insta-gibs people, and people don't like it.  However, on servers where that guy appears is much closer to precisely where he really is; the evaluations on getting BS'd will be consistent match to match (you're connecting to the same server after all, and it's probably a reasonably good connection).

    This alone is going to have a *drastic* impact on the viability and frequency of backstabs.  I promise that.  Whatever else From does, servers are that big of a deal.  Client side detection + "padding" latency with fake delays to make the game more "fair" is bad news.  They could literally just make that one change and PvP would be a new game.

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