Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

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    Lmaousine
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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:18 pm

    People, critical attacks are called critical attacks for a reason, they do a lot of damage to punish someone for making a mistake.

    A ring that further boosts critical attacks is unfair, especially when said ring boosts backstabs.

    I seriously cannot comprehend the reasons why anyone would want the hornet ring back.

    The thing with weapons that were meant for criticals is that they suck with their standard attacks, that's a good thing, because it makes those weapons balanced, I don't have to worry about dying as long as I don't expose my back.

    Now on to the weapon with powerful attacks, those weapons have a low critical modifiers for a reason, but when you add the hornet ring, you're adding 30% to a weapon that has powerful normal attacks. You are removing the restrictions to a weapon that wasn't meant for backstabbing.

    There is nothing fun or balanced about being one-shotted because you made one mistake, If I make the smallest of mistakes, I should be penalized with extra damage, not get one-shotted or nearly get one shotted


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:37 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:I seriously cannot comprehend the reasons why anyone would want the hornet ring back.
    Different animations.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:37 pm

    Hornet ring does absolutely nothing without critical attacks, compared to other rings which can literally always contribute to efficacy.

    There are ways to all but guarantee that you don't take criticals.  What good is the hornet ring then?  Criticals are only the issue that they are due to the client-side correctional warping.  On servers backstabs would be comically less frequent.  DS2 is going to use servers.

    I don't see the difference between dying or nearly dying to one critical, versus dying to a stunlock, or to magic in 1 hit.  The game has numerous avenues for massive damage; nerfing one designed around punishing risky attacks isn't a good idea IMO, aside from maybe correcting the angle (IE making BS slightly harder) and fixing the effects lag comp has on it.

     
    Not so much. The BOC is cheap not because it kills you if you make 1 mistake, but because of the level of absolute perfection needed to avoid making that mistake.



    Requiring perfection is not cheap, but it's also not why BoC is fake difficulty.  BoC is fake difficulty because it is trial and error gameplay.  You need knowledge of two things that you can not see at the same time (pits and enemy attacks), and on top of that, the pits are hidden until you're sufficiently close to them that you can't escape an enemy attack knocking you into one...so you are even denied the opportunity to observe the terrain and then react to attacks while doing so because the terrain changes in a way you can't possibly know on a 1st attempt, or likely your first several.

    Then, once you know how to beat BoC (take out right side with anything, shoot left side with a bow, xbow, or throwing knives) it becomes one of the easier fights in the game, with very little skill required to clear it.  Not only is this memory game fake difficulty, but it completely breaks from the rest of the gameplay that makes DS great.  DS2 really needs not to have a fake difficulty fight.  I know they were going for something like the dragon god fight, and I hope their next "puzzle boss" is more similar to the fair demon's souls version than "herp there was a pit there k die".  BoC is like invisible coin blocks in SNES mario hacks and nothing more.  Once you know where they are, the fight is a joke.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:48 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:I seriously cannot comprehend the reasons why anyone would want the hornet ring back.
    Different animations.
    The ring is not op. It was nerfed for being too op and it has zero effect on critical attacks it increases damage 30% and changes the animation for parrys and backstabs. Also I like things to be unbalanced a bit. It makes the game more creative than bland if it was balanced.



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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:05 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:I seriously cannot comprehend the reasons why anyone would want the hornet ring back.
    Different animations.

     *Why anyone would want a ring that boosts critical attacks


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:11 pm

    It is fun to use and makes it harder to fight in PvP. A challenge were that one mistake kills you. Always on guard with more focus as you fight the wielder. The great feeling that the tank who stunlock lock fell to a riposte by the light weight build, easier to live in PvE were a parry can save or kill you.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:19 pm

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:It is fun to use and makes it harder to fight in PvP. A challenge were that one mistake kills you. Always on guard with more focus as you fight the wielder. The great feeling that the tank who stunlock lock fell to a riposte by the light weight build, easier to live in PvE were a parry can save or kill you.

     That's not a challenge, I don't see a challenge where making one mistake gets you killed.

    I don't see the challenge in one-shotting someone when they are about to kill you fairly.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:29 pm

    You assume that a bs isn't fair. It is the very definition of fair. Everyone can do it and has equal access to it, thus it is fair.

    Then clearly you have a warped definition of challenge. Automatic failure for a mistake isn't a challenge in on its own, but put into the context of dks it is most certainly a big aspect of the challenge. Know what happens if you screw up and the gaping dragon lands on you? you die. That adds to the challenge of the gaping dragon (though its fairly easy to avoid that situation, not unlike the bs, actually)

    There are numerous other examples of this (the black knight on the other side of the drake bridge in ng, depending on the build the quelaag explosion will do it, the iron golem can do it super smoug can do it to lighter builds, bp knights/mushrooms/bonewheels can do it, the londo archers can do it.) need I go on? 

    If you have a problem with 1 hit kills, you are not only playing the wrong series, you're playing games by the wrong company. From is notorious for games where 1 hit kills are not only possible, but likely punishments for stupid mistakes.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:30 pm

    That is why I like this game. The punishments for mistakes are very real and it keeps me focused and always thinking about what I am doing. This game doesn't play fair it plays dirty and I find it a good thing in games these days. I love to pushed to my limits in battle and this game does that.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:47 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:You assume that a bs isn't fair. It is the very definition of fair. Everyone can do it and has equal access to it, thus it is fair.

    Then clearly you have a warped definition of challenge. Automatic failure for a mistake isn't a challenge in on its own, but put into the context of dks it is most certainly a big aspect of the challenge. Know what happens if you screw up and the gaping dragon lands on you? you die. That adds to the challenge of the gaping dragon (though its fairly easy to avoid that situation, not unlike the bs, actually)

    There are numerous other examples of this (the black knight on the other side of the drake bridge in ng, depending on the build the quelaag explosion will do it, the iron golem can do it super smoug can do it to lighter builds, bp knights/mushrooms/bonewheels can do it, the londo archers can do it.) need I go on? 

    If you have a problem with 1 hit kills, you are not only playing the wrong series, you're playing games by the wrong company. From is notorious for games where 1 hit kills are not only possible, but likely punishments for stupid mistakes.
    A bs is a perfectly fair way of punishing your opponents mistakes, what I'm arguing is that the hornet ring makes the backstab more powerful that it needs be.

    We're not talking about PvE, that's different, I don't have a problem with bosses one shotting me, they're bosses, not other players

    It's the one hit kills in PvP that are a problem for me, nearly anyone with a powerful weapon can one-shot the average build with one move.

    The hornet ring trivializes the challange of killing other players, it's not fair that I'm kicking someone's *** and then they run into my back and one-shot me.

    Maybe if the netcode was better, maybe if the hornet ring only worked for ripostes, maybe if the hornet ring only had 10% more damage, then I wouldn't be complaining about being hornet stabbed.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:54 pm

    Lmaousine wrote: We're not talking about PvE, that's different, I don't have a problem with bosses one shotting me, they're bosses, not other players

    It's the one hit kills in PvP that are a problem for me, nearly anyone with a powerful weapon can one-shot the average build with one move.

    The hornet ring trivializes the challange of killing other players, it's not fair that I'm kicking someone's *** and then they run into my back and one-shot me.

    Maybe if the netcode was better, maybe if the hornet ring only worked for ripostes, maybe if the hornet ring only had 10% more damage, then I wouldn't be complaining about being hornet stabbed.

    Those are your opinions and mine is that 1-hit kills are not a real issue in PvP if you know how to counter them and use your build to it's best. But I got nothing for your other opinion. I never felt that but if they run up to bs you then that is your fault.

    If the hornet ring worked like that no one would use it. It went from 50% to 30% that is a good nerf.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:04 pm

    If they kill you in 1 hit with a bs, its entirely your fualt. Judging lag is a skill and you can account for all but the worst lag to shut down the attempt.

    Functionally, its the same as being parried to be killed in 1 hit, and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:07 pm

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote: We're not talking about PvE, that's different, I don't have a problem with bosses one shotting me, they're bosses, not other players

    It's the one hit kills in PvP that are a problem for me, nearly anyone with a powerful weapon can one-shot the average build with one move.

    The hornet ring trivializes the challange of killing other players, it's not fair that I'm kicking someone's *** and then they run into my back and one-shot me.

    Maybe if the netcode was better, maybe if the hornet ring only worked for ripostes, maybe if the hornet ring only had 10% more damage, then I wouldn't be complaining about being hornet stabbed.

    If the hornet ring worked like that no one would use it.


     And then PvP was balanced


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:10 pm

    I'm just going to say, I much prefer the Hornet Ring than the Fatal Weapons from DeS. You know, Fatal Weapons were literally weapons that got extra critical damage. Currently, the only way for that is the Hornet Ring. I much prefer that you have to take up a precious ring spot than to just put fatal on your weapon then grab DWGR + Wolf Ring.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:11 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:  And then PvP was balanced
    And then I stop playing the games. I hate balance like that.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:13 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:If they kill you in 1 hit with a bs, its entirely your fualt. Judging lag is a skill and you can account for all but the worst lag to shut down the attempt.

    Functionally, its the same as being parried to be killed in 1 hit, and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.

     But do you have infinite casts with GMW?
    But can the hornet ring be kited until it runs out?
    But does GMW work against Great Magic Barrier?
    But is the hornet ring affected by Vow of Silence?

    '"Judging lag is a skill""
    What?


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:16 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:If they kill you in 1 hit with a bs, its entirely your fualt. Judging lag is a skill and you can account for all but the worst lag to shut down the attempt.

    Functionally, its the same as being parried to be killed in 1 hit, and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.

     But do you have infinite casts with GMW?
    But can the hornet ring be kited until it runs out?
    But does GMW work against Great Magic Barrier?
    But is the hornet ring affected by Vow of Silence?

    '"Judging lag is a skill""
    What?
    Hack
    There is no limit and the ring only effects parries
    No comment
    What? It is a ring not a spell!

    How to use lag and counter it is a skill.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:24 pm

    My memory is bad. Very bad indeed. And as such I don't remember exactly how Fatal weapons worked. I think they raised Critical damage, but lowered any other damage.
    If we would have to see a return of Fatal weapons, as long as there isn't Hornet Ring as well, I won't complain. Having both of these is a bit too much.

    Making a Fatal Rapier and a Sharp Rapier and switch between them is like having Wolf Ring and Hornet Ring and switch between them. There are people that do it, no doubt and I applaud their quick fingers.

    However if I were to pick one, I'd go with Hornet Ring over Fatal weapons. Unless you're one of those quick fingered people, you're likely to have the Hornet Ring on you the entire fight, while you can easily swap the Fatal weapon to normal one with one press of the D-Pad. Especially since DkS II is to have three weapons per hand, this would make it even so easier than with just two. This way, people have to sacrifice a valuable ring slot, which seems a fair price to pay for that extra 30% Critical damage.

    Overall, I'd prefer none. No Fatal weapons and no Hornet Ring. I think they're not needed. Perhaps their lack would easy on the amount of BS fishers as well, but that's just a speculation and we have yet to see how will Criticals work in DkS II PvP.

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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:31 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:If they kill you in 1 hit with a bs, its entirely your fualt. Judging lag is a skill and you can account for all but the worst lag to shut down the attempt.

    Functionally, its the same as being parried to be killed in 1 hit, and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.

     But do you have infinite casts with GMW?
    But can the hornet ring be kited until it runs out?
    But does GMW work against Great Magic Barrier?
    But is the hornet ring affected by Vow of Silence?

    '"Judging lag is a skill""
    What?
    So you defend against the potential 1 hit kill bs by refusing to engage and playing defensively.

    Do that to the bs fisher with the hornet ring and guess what happens. They lose, for the same reasons. They're relying on a "critical moment" (no pun intended) to decide the outcome of the fight. Deny them that moment and you win.

    All of the same kiting tactics can be used against any weapon shorter than the demons spear anyways.

    Also, no you don't have infinite casts of gmw, on the same note you have an extra ring slot to make it easier to fast roll (ie bs you) and get more health.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:02 pm

    Lag is variable and is not skill.

    It is also not a problem unique to BS, it's also extremely unlikely to matter in DS II most of the time..


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:03 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:Lag is variable and is not skill.

    It is also not a problem unique to BS, it's also extremely unlikely to matter in DS II most of the time..
    Hopefully...


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:11 pm

    judging lag is a skill though. Lag is variable, but judging it is a skill and its doable, the lag rate in most (of my) matches is fairly consistent, so once i've got a feel fot it I'm in little danger of being surprised by something lag related.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by StiffNipples on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:17 pm

    As someone that (when on PS3) regularly gets backstabbed from the edge of lock on range I will just say that I am really, really, really looking forwward to servers.

    I don't have a huge issue with the Hornet Ring on PC, as the connections I get are usually pretty good, the players are usually into having a good fight and not just going straight for the backstab, and I can generally judge and avoid backstabs when they do.
    HOWEVER, on PS3, against predominantly Japan, where the connection is horrible, and every players strategy is 'skillfully backstab fish', the Hornet Ring is the bane of my existance (literally).

    75% of matches I get backstabbed from about Dark Anor Londo lock on distance, the other 25% I get backstabbed from almost outside the Forests lock on distance. There is no way to avoid it, it's bullsh*t and feels cheap. And it's almost always a one hit kill, because buff + Hornet Ring + Rapier or Greatclub is death.

    Now I know that's mostly to do with lag, but there's also the part where I die in one hit just for having connected to someone through a potato.


    My issue with the Hornet Ring is that you get a large boost in damage for just sacrificing a ring slot, which you can easily build around when you've got 100 levels to play with.
    I don't have a problem with Glass Cannons one shotting me, because they've made a worthy tradeoff, they one shot me, or I one shot them. It's fair, and it's balanced. Having the ability to one shot someone through easy exploitation of a mechanic whislt still having 1500hp yourself isn't fair as there is no tradeoff (like I said earlier, imo -1 ring slot isn't tradeoff enough for the extra damage).



    But do you have infinite casts with GMW?
    Hack

    What? Seriously?

    But can the hornet ring be kited until it runs out?
    There is no limit and the ring only effects parries

    Huh.

    But does GMW work against Great Magic Barrier?
    No comment

    But is the hornet ring affected by Vow of Silence?
    What? It is a ring not a spell!


    Soris I think you completely missed the point on this.

    Lmaousine was arguing against the point that Pirate made which is:

    and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.

    What Pirate is saying is that instead of losing a ring slot you would be better off buffing as you get the same (if not more) damage from buffing your weapon with GMW.

    And what Lmaousine is saying is that the Hornet Ring is better than buffing because it's a permanent boost to critical attack damage (that is it's not limited to 3 60sec casts), and it can't be made null by Kiting (as it's not a buff and doesn't wear off), or by using GMB (as it's just a physical dmage boost, not magic based, so it can't be made null by GMB), or by using Vow of Silence (as it's not a spell so it can't be made null by disallowing casting).


    FWIW I agree with Lmaousine on this one, to me a ring slot that gives a permanent boost to damage gained from critical attacks is a better option than putting 10 points into Intel (plus Att + End for catalyst) to use a temporary buff that can be avoided or made null and only has limited casts.

    Sure if you're already using buffs then it (the Hornet Ring) is not really worth it as you've already got the extra 200ish damage, (although damage boost is a damage boost in both cases) but not everyone uses buffs.

    Also, imo, the extra damage from buffs is balanced, as you have to spend upwards of 15 points to use them, you have to sacrifice a weapon slot for a catalyst to cast them, you have to take the time to cast them, and then you have to use them within their time limit, and they can be countered with three different miracles, whereas the Hornet Ring has no like counter to it's damage (maybe, at a stretch, Iron Flesh could be considered a counter), doesn't wear off, and doesn't directly cost stat points or weapons slots. Really it only costs that one ring slot, and maybe extra points into End/Vit (and that's only assuming you swap it for Havels/FaP).


    Personally, I hope it's not in DaS2. It's easier to balance weapons by giving them individual crit bonuses for their crit attacks than it is to balance a ring like that.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:56 am

    TL;DR

    No. I don't want fatals or anything else to do with backstab damage.

    I wish, that you could do the "hollow thieves throat slit" and your opponent would slowly bleed out like toxic or something. The only way you could stop it would be to eat a red blossom...I mean...those things are almost useless.

    This followed by a wake up, or at least a delayed "stand up" animation (so you could buff or something) would be fine with me.
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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:57 pm

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:If they kill you in 1 hit with a bs, its entirely your fualt. Judging lag is a skill and you can account for all but the worst lag to shut down the attempt.

    Functionally, its the same as being parried to be killed in 1 hit, and I just explained and will for the 4th time now, if I put gmw on my weapon, it adds just as much or more damage than the hornet ring for many weapons, and frees the ring slot.

     But do you have infinite casts with GMW?
    But can the hornet ring be kited until it runs out?
    But does GMW work against Great Magic Barrier?
    But is the hornet ring affected by Vow of Silence?

    '"Judging lag is a skill""
    What?
    Hack
    There is no limit and the ring only effects parries
    No comment
    What? It is a ring not a spell!

    How to use lag and counter it is a skill.
    You did not just encourage hacking.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

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