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    Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

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    Lmaousine
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    Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:42 pm

    I don't wanna see any ring equivalents to the Hornet Ring, it took a lot away from the PvP experience, what was so great about being one shotted by someone who fishes for backstabs with a Zwei/Great Club?

    Nothing that's what, what I wanna see in DkS 2 is weapons that were meant for backstabbing, they do crap damage with normal attacks, but when you land a riposte or backstab, massive damage, and with backstabs being nerfed, I can see a balanced critical attack system.

    If you disagree with me, then you probably like taking Zweis/Great Clubs to the spine, or maybe you like shoving said weapons up peoples spines while using a hornet ring because you have sub par skill.

    Nah I'm just messing with you, but be prepared to post a counterargument if you disagree with my opinion.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:02 pm

    *ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:26 pm

    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    The problem with the hornet ring is that anyone can deal massive damage with weapons that weren't designed for backstabbing. Such as a Zwei or Great club, you can easily hit over 1000 with the right weapon if you have the hornet ring.
     
    Sure I can use a dagger, but with the hornet ring, I can have a weapon that deals high damage with normal attacks and even higher damage with backstabs.

    Daggers are rendered useless by the hornet ring, if it didn't exist, more people would have to use daggers to get high damage with backstabs.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Encore on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:28 pm



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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:30 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t21482-the-almighty-dagger


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:44 pm

    Never mess with a dagger it will be a death call.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:46 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t21482-the-almighty-dagger
    CMW?
    As in crystal magic weapon?


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:48 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t21482-the-almighty-dagger
    CMW?
    As in crystal magic weapon?
    That was really early, I was hosting SL 120 in the Forest with an unbuffed +15 Dagger.

    Win:Loss ratio; about 9:1.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:49 pm

    And the zweih at 27/40 will bs for 900+ without the hornet ring, enough to kill most builds with the 2 hits. The hornet ring is actually most useful for such large weapons off a hitstun, because the 450 of a hit+ the 1300 of a hring bs is 1750 damage, meaning he kills most builds in 1-2hit combo instead of 2 individual moves. This actually means the player has to be good enough to land a blow with his slow weapon in the first place, and even a weak buff like great magic weapon could easilr replace the hornet ring for essentially the same damage output, and a free ring slot.

    In short, people running the hornet ring with a unbuffed large club are wasting a ring slot when they could be using havels ring to cut end and put points into faith or int for utility or pyromancy.

    The hornet ring is best suited for weapons like the rapier, that deal exceptionally low damage per hit, but are much easier to hit with, so that 1 bs they land for 1300 means they only have to hit 4 more times instead of having to hit 13 times to win, and the low weight of such weapons means that its easy to both save end points and use the hornet ring.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:13 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t21482-the-almighty-dagger
    CMW?
    As in crystal magic weapon?
    That was really early, I was hosting SL 120 in the Forest with an unbuffed +15 Dagger.

    Win:Loss ratio; about 9:1.
    One guy can do well with a dagger, meanwhile about 100 people with a hornet ring can do the same amount of damage with backstabs and ripostes as you can without using a hornet ring

    That's the issue we're talking about here, I don't care if you're super good with a dagger, there way more people who win just as much as you do because of one ring, with weapons that weren't meant for critical attacks.

    I want to see more people using daggers for critical attacks, if I get backstabbed with a weapon that has a low critical modifier, then I take extra damage, not get one-shot or nearly get one-shot. I don't want to nearly kill someone, then have them one-shot me because of some ring.

    If I take a lot of damage from a backstab, it should be because someone used a dagger and took the opportunity to punish me for leaving my back open, not someone that pushes right with a Great Club and gets behind me to hornet stab me.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:16 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t21482-the-almighty-dagger
    CMW?
    As in crystal magic weapon?
    That was really early, I was hosting SL 120 in the Forest with an unbuffed +15 Dagger.

    Win:Loss ratio; about 9:1.
    One guy can do well with a dagger, meanwhile about 100 people with a hornet ring can do the same amount of damage with backstabs and ripostes as you can without using a hornet ring

    That's the issue we're talking about here, I don't care if you're super good with a dagger, there way more people who win just as much as you do because of one ring, with weapons that weren't meant for critical attacks.

    I want to see more people using daggers for critical attacks, if I get backstabbed with a weapon that has a low critical modifier, then I take extra damage, not get one-shot or nearly get one-shot. I don't want to nearly kill someone, then have them one-shot me because of some ring.

    If I take a lot of damage from a backstab, it should be because someone used a dagger and took the opportunity to punish me for leaving my back open, not someone that pushes right with a Great Club and gets behind me to hornet stab me.
    The only reason 99% of people use their daggers is for backstabbing...


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:28 pm

    No point in using daggers for backstabbing if you use the hornet ring with a weapon with a high AR

    You're basically giving all of your weapons 130% critical modifiers.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:32 pm

    I think you're forgetting that Hornet DOES NOT effect the critical modifier, it simply adds 30% damage.

    In other words, if it does about the same amount with Hornet Ring, then it's going to be even without the ring.

    If a Claymore does 1200 with Hornet Ring, and a Rapier does 1300 with Hornet, without Hornet Rapier would do 1000 and Clay would do around 900.

    If it effected the critical modifier, Rapier would do around 1700 damage, not 1300.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Lmaousine on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:39 pm

    Well that doesn't matter, the hornet ring has unbalanced pvp to the point where I just play offline and go online for Fight Clubs/Streams

    Here's hoping that From Redeems themselves by not having a hornet ring equivalent in DkS2.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:50 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Lmaousine wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:*ahem*
    You mean like the Daggers we currently have?

     Like anyone uses daggers when the hornet ring exists.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t21482-the-almighty-dagger
    CMW?
    As in crystal magic weapon?
    That was really early, I was hosting SL 120 in the Forest with an unbuffed +15 Dagger.

    Win:Loss ratio; about 9:1.

    I want to see more people using daggers for critical attacks, if I get backstabbed with a weapon that has a low critical modifier, then I take extra damage, not get one-shot or nearly get one-shot. I don't want to nearly kill someone, then have them one-shot me because of some ring.

    If I take a lot of damage from a backstab, it should be because someone used a dagger and took the opportunity to punish me for leaving my back open, not someone that pushes right with a Great Club and gets behind me to hornet stab me.
    "I don't want to be winning and then lose because I made a stupid mistake and exposed my back to the single most obvious and easily defeated tactic in exsistance"

    If you get straff bsd, not only did you expose your back, but you did it to the supreme noob tactic.

    Even taking a more realistic stance, when a dagger stabs half inch thick metal armor, or even basic chain?
    (which armored even the "vulnerable" neck, btw.) Nothing.
    Know what happens when you replace the dagger with an overhead swing from a 12 pound hunk of wood? It crushes your helmet, and your skull, and your spine.  
    For the record, in the time it takes my zweih to swing once for450, a buffed dagger could deal 1200 damage to me without bsing me, and with like 16 dex.

    and that's not to mention that it was zust explained that a large club with gmw will deal just as much bs damage, and gain more versatility in the form of magic and equip weight by going without the ring. Even if gmw only adds 15o damage that totals 300 extra for a bs potting ,it at 1300 anayways, but now you have to dodge hsm


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by SadPanda on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:50 pm

    Lmaousine wrote:Well that doesn't matter, the hornet ring has unbalanced pvp to the point where I just play offline and go online for Fight Clubs/Streams

    Here's hoping that From Redeems themselves by not having a hornet ring equivalent in DkS2.
    Alright, seriously? It seems like you only post topics about PvP and how bad it is. Nothing's overpowered. If they fish for backstabs, strafe back and oppiste their direction. If they spam magic, roll and hope not to get hit. This really ins't that hard to comprehend.

    "Fatal weapons", yeah like the 10 something weapons we have now with shown critical modifiers. Not to mention the 20 something others that have hidden modifiers. Demon's Greataxe hornet backstab, roughly 1500 damage. Hornet ring rapier backstab, roughly 1250. That's a 250 damage difference for 20 weight units and a faster, longer weapon.

    Plus, daggers without backstabs are deadly in and of themselves.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:58 pm

    Nothing is unbalanced in this game. We are the unbalanced ones here. Not our weapons just how we use them. The hornet ring is not bad but something I think we all need in the games.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:03 pm

    That's not a valid distinction. What makes an item/weapon overpowered it the use it can be put to and that it is so strong in this use that it demands everybody else use it or be killed by it (guess why americans don't get to play with meytwo or arceus and cawblade is banned.)

    The hornet ring is a far cry form meeting that description.

    I agree that the ring is fine as is, but your premise is flawed.


    Are we upset that I called you out op? Your entitled to your opinion, but if such an opinion is not based on anything more than your feelings /preferences instead of quantifying how it will benefit the games balance then you can't very well expect to be taken seriously. I've just explained that the hornet ring on a large weapon for bsing is a waste of resources better put elsewhere and that the same damage can be achieved without it, this nerfing the ring would be a huge blow to weapons like the rapier and not actually do anything about great club 1 hit kill bs's


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:09 pm

    I kind of agree with everyone, but at the same time I don't.


    Imo the Hornet Ring is not needed in the game. Those weapon that need more damage from a critical hit already have higher critical modifiers and honestly backstabs and ripostes do so much damage already that a ring to buff their damage is really unnecessary.


    Now maybe this is because I PvP'd against Japan (from Aus) for a good year but I f**king hate the Hornet ring. It turns unavoidable lag stabs into insta death, and with this games netcode that happens far, far too much.

    Backstabs shouldn't be a one hit kill at SL100 with 1500+ hp, no matter what mistake you make, be it a jumping attack or being too predictable, no one mistake deserves to be a one hit kill (that's the very definition of cheap, take BoC for example, 1 mistake and you're in a pit, there's a reason everyone calls it Bed of Bullsh*t). 
    Take into account how easy it is to get backstabbed and then chain stabbed or roll stabbed or lag stabbed or any other stabbed and it's just unneeded. Sure it's ok in PvE, but in PvP it's OP, and the fact that it's only downside is it take up a ring slot isn't enough to balance it.

    Backstabs themselves are overpowered imo, and the Hornet Ring serves no purpose other than to make them more overpowered.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Ephexis on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:02 pm

    StiffNipples wrote:I kind of agree with everyone, but at the same time I don't.


    Imo the Hornet Ring is not needed in the game. Those weapon that need more damage from a critical hit already have higher critical modifiers and honestly backstabs and ripostes do so much damage already that a ring to buff their damage is really unnecessary.


    Now maybe this is because I PvP'd against Japan (from Aus) for a good year but I f**king hate the Hornet ring. It turns unavoidable lag stabs into insta death, and with this games netcode that happens far, far too much.

    Backstabs shouldn't be a one hit kill at SL100 with 1500+ hp, no matter what mistake you make, be it a jumping attack or being too predictable, no one mistake deserves to be a one hit kill (that's the very definition of cheap, take BoC for example, 1 mistake and you're in a pit, there's a reason everyone calls it Bed of Bullsh*t). 
    Take into account how easy it is to get backstabbed and then chain stabbed or roll stabbed or lag stabbed or any other stabbed and it's just unneeded. Sure it's ok in PvE, but in PvP it's OP, and the fact that it's only downside is it take up a ring slot isn't enough to balance it.

    Backstabs themselves are overpowered imo, and the Hornet Ring serves no purpose other than to make them more overpowered.

     i agree with all of this^Hurrah

    BSs are entirely to powerful as they are, a ring that boosts the dmg from crit attacks is completely unneeded imo


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:17 am

    StiffNipples wrote:Backstabs shouldn't be a one hit kill at SL100 with 1500+ hp, no matter what mistake you make, be it a jumping attack or being too predictable, no one mistake deserves to be a one hit kill (that's the very definition of cheap, take BoC for example, 1 mistake and you're in a pit, there's a reason everyone calls it Bed of Bullsh*t). 
    Take into account how easy it is to get backstabbed and then chain stabbed or roll stabbed or lag stabbed or any other stabbed and it's just unneeded. Sure it's ok in PvE, but in PvP it's OP, and the fact that it's only downside is it take up a ring slot isn't enough to balance it.

    Backstabs themselves are overpowered imo, and the Hornet Ring serves no purpose other than to make them more overpowered.
    Not so much. The BOC is cheap not because it kills you if you make 1 mistake, but because of the level of absolute perfection needed to avoid making that mistake.

    Its fairly easy to avoid getting bs'd, granted its also easy bs anyone who gives you the slightest opening.

    I also disagree that nobody deserves to be killed in 1 hit. For the record, if you have 1500 hp and 300+defense (read: everybody) a hornet ring bs from a crystal dgm (688 ar) will still only deal like 1400 damage, meaning it won't kill you. That's a tangent though.

    Anyways, any and all of the things that can kill in 1 hit are obvious (as in easy to spot) and none of them require much skill or planning to avoid and punish (with your own high damage attack.) They are the very definition of fair, because everyone has access to them or a counter to them, and these counters can be either skill or equipment based, meaning even low skill players can not only kill in 1 hit, but defeat advanced attampts to kill in one hit. One cannot get more fair than that.

    The bottom line of the soul series combat though, is that it has a high damage/health ratio, and always has. The fights tend to be short and any one mistake is often fatal. That's how it works fighting everything in the game, I fail to see why this should change because you're fighting another person. You don't have to like it, but the ability to kill and be killed in 1 hit is as much a part of the soul series as the dodge roll.

    Finally, I disagree that bs's are overpowered. I think their power is just fine, it rewards taking calculated risks and wrecks wreckless play that is so common is 3'rd person hack/slash games. And I just explained how the hornet ring on large weapons is a waste of space.

    the problem is the relative ease of use. Compared to glass cannons or parries, bsing does almost the same damage and is much easier to pull of. That is the problem, and what I would address (with a 30% reduction in hitbox personally )

    Thus the biggest benefit of the hornet ring goes to weapons like the dagger and rapier that can struggle to break 200 damage in a hit. That extra 30% shifts them from neading to land 6 hits after a bs to kill (when a single hostile spell or stuncombo will kill them) to only needing to land three, and I cannot tell you how valuable that is to such weapons.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:29 am

    WHY DO WE STILL HAVE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE HORNET RING?
    The Hornet Ring is not exactly OP, they nerfed it already, what do you want more? Nerf it till it does only +10% damage?
    If you get backstabbed, it's only because you were careless, also Daggers not only deal high critical damage, but they are also light meaning that Daggers still have a use since they are not heavy like axes or greatswords.
    In my opinion the Hornet Ring is also balanced because you need to sacrifice a ring slot for it so you need to have light armor aka you can stunlock them to hell.
    Seriously guys, stop making comments that the Hornet Ring is OP, it is actually balanced, we just need to take good care of our backs, OK?

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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:48 am

    As a Rapier user, my BS usually does around 800-900, which is more than half of my opponents HP even without Hornet. That's a BIG punishment for the person's mistake, but he still has a chance to adapt and defeat me. If he repeats the mistake, he's dead. Also, as Forum Pirate said, the weapons normal attacks are very weak in comparison to whatever it is usually facing.

    FROM nerfed Hornet Ring so that it is very less likely to OHKO BS the standard 1500 HP builds. And it works. Even if I get Hornet BSed with Large Club, I survive it. Barely, but I do and I can turn the fight around as long as I live.

    However there are weapons that almost need Hornet Ring. My quality build, using mostly Longsword has to have a backup DST for Criticals, because a BS with 28/40 +15 Longsword does roughly 450-500, which isalmost the same as the weapons 2H R2. The only use this has is Counter BS, but doing a BS punish is laughable. Str tanks, usually only get around 350 per BS, which is pathetic! Hornet Ring saves the day for this weapon. It adds exactly enough to make its Criticals deadly again, so people can't just shrug it off.

    Even so, my final opinion is that I don't know if Hornet Ring is OP, or not. It is what it is and does its role perfectly. However, I believe that it is not needed. The damage Criticals do now is just fine IMO.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:56 am

    well isn't that the point? great combustions damage is just fine normally, but if I'm wiling to give up gear slots that could get me armor or health or poise I can make it great. Its not necessary, but then playing the game at all isn't "necessary."

    Same with hornets ring on the crit weapons (because again, its a waste of space for large weapons) I punish hard, but if I give up some poise or hp I can punish really hard, making the rest of the fight much easier for my build that is completely incapable of the stun combos of every other melee weapon.


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    Re: Fatal Weapons in DkS2?

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:07 am

    To be honest the Hornet ring isn't op and should come back in DkS2. People only feel its OP when people only BS and use bigger weapons. Pirate and a couple others already explained the numbers and such so i find it realitvely easy to see how really meaningless it is on bigger builds. But i have used a rapier as well and if i don't use a Hornet ring you might as well give up or put on DWGR/havels for a better roll cuz its going to be a long fight. It can also be used on other weapons that don't do much damage for a BS vs a normal attack. If the hornet ring needs ANY nerf its that it can only be used on weapons meant for crits such as rapiers/daggers and that it doesn't work on anything else and then have its power be back at 50%.


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