Is dead angling an exploit?

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:46 pm

    Yeah it's an exploit as broken as BS, messed up magic and parries. The lag and the not quite appropriate blocking mechanics together cause this, and while some weapons should dead angle like greate scythe and shotel are acceptable, when I see guys with ultra gs or small swords abusing the lag and failures of blocking to dead angle my eyebrows raise a tad


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:28 am

    I agree about scythe's and the shotel. Although one time I got invaded by a guy with nothing put a great scythe and a pyro glove. He put on PW and a red tearstone activated and he one shotted me through the shield. I'm not complaining, but I would hate to see this become common on katanas and greatswords with their thrusts.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:17 am

    "Man dude, please just listen.  There's no need for that language.  I mean we ARE pretty freakin awesome, our fan base loves us and we're good at what we do.  We have a fantastic relationship with that fan base and think we've catered to a lot of their wants and expectations while keeping our artistic integrity....aaand come to think of it, we have considered waiting for SCE and Demon's Souls 2.  We would appreciate it if you'd just calm down a little and let us do our thing.  We DO appreciate our relationship, and hope you understand where we're coming from."

    said FROMSOFTWARE.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:49 am

    This conversation between Rynn and Fex is getting quite a bit too serious, no?
    I like to enjoy a good catfight between two girls. Popcorn
    But it seems that you fundamentaly agree and just keep on nitpicking over one word.

    Also, here.
    Spoiler:

    To add some oil to the off topic.
    You actually can pancake people. Not sure with how many weapons you can doi it, but I occasionaly flatten people with Zwei 2H and even got flattened by it myself yesterday.

    To add to the topic.
    Carphil wrote:from a PVP point of view, I think dead angling is fine, its adds another way to beat turtles and much like toogle escape, it adds more mechanics to the game. However, we can't ignore the fact that it is an exploit and people have the right to complain.
    I think that Carp nailed it.
    Reminds me of the "No reload" glitch from first Halo. Eerybody used it, even though majority complained about it. It even got banned in some tourneys. But Bungie never removed it.

    Glitch, exploit, bug whatever. I don't really care about using the proper word, or name as long as people understand me and know what I'm trying to say. winking


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:30 am

    Sentiel wrote:......I like to enjoy a good catfight between two girls. Popcorn....

    OH %$#@ LOL!!!!!!

    It's about time I hear you say something stupid.....Popcorn

    ***edit***

    Read you say....heard you type...whatever man......Popcorn 
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:10 am

    I've never bothered to try dead-angles on NPCs, however, NPCs can dead-angle you.PvE   If any of the Silver Knights (sword or spear) pull back to start a thrust attack and hold it for longer than normal you cannot block the thrust.  Interestingly, however, you can parry it -- if you blindly guess the timing of the thrust.  Also, overhead slam attacks from the asylum demon and his cousins and Havel (not sure about the Btown Ogres) can dead-angle you.  It's different from the pvp dead-angle obviously because it's straight on attacks.  The Silver Knight dead-angles feel very glitchy, but it would make sense for the slat attack to do damage (but why can't I move my shield if they can do that? crying )  I'm not even sure what this means (if anything), but it's certainly food for thought.  

    In pvp the great scythe is one the classic dead-angle weapons and it does actually make perfect sense that it dead-angles.  The part that bothers me, however, is that someone can back-stab me with it while standing directly behind me.  Notice that every other large weapon class has a double-hit animation.  The scythe however, is thrust in sideways at point-blank range.  So, saying it should dead-angle doesn't do it for me, simply because it's not consistent in it's realistic characteristics.  For me, the scythes and the curved greatswords are the only really bothersome weapon classes for dead angles.  I can't think of other weapons that consistently go straight through shields.  For everything else dead-angling seems to be only useful for avoiding parries -- which I don't have a problem with because swinging at an angle should make it tougher to parry.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:46 am

    That attack Silver Knights do is unblockable. Just like in fighting games. That's why the attack is so telegraphed and is so slow. The game is telling you to avoid, or parry it. Since it's a stab, I think it can be explained that they put their inhuman strength and pierce your shield, or something. I dunno, but I'm glad to have enemies with unblockable attacks. In essecnce it's the same as grab attacks, from Gwyn, or Darkwraiths.

    As for the Asylum Demon and Havel. The reason you can't block it is that your shields Stability plus your Stamina are not enough to block the attack and thus it will pancake you. This works in PvP as well. If you simply can't block the attack, even with full Stamina, it will ignore your block and damage you anyway. Try it with End 40 nad Havel's Shield and see what gets through that.

    For example, I invaded with my SL 1 with legit Parish gear, meaning +5 Heater Shield and when my host pulled DKGA and used it's R2 AoE, even though I blocked it with full Stamina head on, it still one shotted me.

    None of those are Dead Angles. DA is when your opponet is facing away from you when he attacks, thus enabling the attack to ignore your shield, because of faulty hit detection. Even in PvP, Dark Hand grab is unblockable, but it can be parried. That and Shotel are just things designed to ignore shields.

    I do agree that watching Great Scythe split my character in two, while I get no damage thanks to my shield, which never even touched the weapon is silly. But then, we would have everybody running around only with Scythes, because they would bypass shields, just like Shotel. Just with more damage and range. To be fair. FROM added these weapons mostly because fans cried for them back in DeS. When you kill a scythe wielding grim reaper and get a lame War Scythe instead of the pure badassery of a scythe he has, it is kid of a ripoff. I myself farmed those guys for hours in hopes to get my hands on their scythe.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by crbngville2 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:23 am

    First. A Bow   to the Holy Cookie Baker for joining in a PVP discussion. Second. As has been previously pointed out, dead angles and toggle escape are exploits that existed in Demon's Souls and work in almost that exact same way in DkS (not counting the P2P lag). They are in no way gamebreaking and imho add depth to the combat. At this point I would consider them to be advanced mechanics. Why? Because anyone that is serious about PVP needs to understand how to both use them and avoid them.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:22 am

    I don't think you can "avoid" toggle-escapes lol, aside from never stunning people.  You can punish them though.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by crbngville2 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:48 am

    Yes Mein. You are correct, I'm sure that you knew what I meant though.

    And btw.... Remind me to invite you to a fight when I start playing DkS again, or DeS whichever you prefer. Your view of PVP aligns with those that I would prefer to brawl with.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:10 am

    We can't make a "realism" argument with dead angles because then we'd half to make a realism argument about everything. I'd call BS anytime someone blocked the dragon tooth with anything except havels shield, and with the horizontal swings of heavier weapons (eg claymore) you'd have to turn towards the swing to block it or it would smash your mid shield out of the way.

    Untill we have throws, I sincerely hope they stay, because turtles are irritating enough at is, there's no need to remove the only reliable way of getting to them.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:55 pm

    Consider mid-rolling in pvp (a competitive environment).

    Now consider how much more viable they would be without dead angles.  Fast rolling will always have an edge, but the one thing that a mid-rolling build should be able count on is in essence taken away because of this mechanic.

    Backstabs would still be more difficult to avoid, roll backstabs would still be almost completely unavailable, and dodging magic/castings would still require more skill, but as it is now, in a "serious" environment, they are rendered almost useless by this one mechanic.

    Dead angles are not the only way to deal with turtles, and if mid-rollers had the ability  to take advantage of shields (that were obviously improved on for pvp) they would at least stand a fighting chance.

    I fail to see how this adds any depth to the game.  Because of this, the only mid-roller build I've made this past year was with the Bonewheel Shield, and it was strictly for co-op.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:03 pm

    Mid roll isn't gimped by dead angles. fat roll is much more so, but the biggest problem with the mid roll is fast spam (spear, kat, db, wog) where they can get off 2 before you can start another roll, but they force the first roll with something you can't block, this can be dead angles, but it can also just be a high powered spell or spear/gt/washingpole spam to guard break (because you can't parry it, at least not easily and its a serious risk)

    I've listed the counters to turtles and explained why they don't work (at least so long as the turtle doesn't also suck) already. None of them can be implemented effectively and reliably, and all of them leave you vulnerable to the turtles attacks (while the turtle remains protected)


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:05 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Consider mid-rolling in pvp (a competitive environment).

    Now consider how much more viable they would be without dead angles.  Fast rolling will always have an edge, but the one thing that a mid-rolling build should be able count on is in essence taken away because of this mechanic.

    Backstabs would still be more difficult to avoid, roll backstabs would still be almost completely unavailable, and dodging magic/castings would still require more skill, but as it is now, in a "serious" environment, they are rendered almost useless by this one mechanic.

    Dead angles are not the only way to deal with turtles, and if mid-rollers had the ability  to take advantage of shields (that were obviously improved on for pvp) they would at least stand a fighting chance.

    I fail to see how this adds any depth to the game.  Because of this, the only mid-roller build I've made this past year was with the Bonewheel Shield, and it was strictly for co-op.
    I think this deserves a +1.

    What you wrote reminds me of the pre-patch PvP, with DWGR everywhere.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:21 pm

    Seriously, am I the only one who mid rolls?

    My dgm doesn't mesh with fast rolling very well, so I mid roll most of the time. I only have the 1 midroll build, but its my primary sl 100.

    Dead angles (other than wog) are inconcequential, in fact they usually end in my opponent being hitstun-bsd (because I have the poise to just swing into them). The problem is powerful and/or aoe magic. I can't block it, and with lag its tough to dodge, and even if I do dodge I eat a db or spear attack before I can recover.

    That's my problem with the mid roll, and its much worse in ganks where that type of thing happens constantly.

    Other than that I have problems with the in-hit-out people (until I guess their pattern, then I kill them), but that's my weapon, not my roll.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:28 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Seriously, am I the only one who mid rolls?

    My dgm doesn't mesh with fast rolling very well, so I mid roll most of the time. I only have the 1 midroll build, but its my primary sl 100.

    Dead angles (other than wog) are inconcequential, in fact they usually end in my opponent being hitstun-bsd (because I have the poise to just swing into them). The problem is powerful and/or aoe magic. I can't block it, and with lag its tough to dodge, and even if I do dodge I eat a db or spear attack before I can recover.

    That's my problem with the mid roll, and its much worse in ganks where that type of thing happens constantly.

    Other than that I have problems with the in-hit-out people (until I guess their pattern, then I kill them), but that's my weapon, not my roll.
    I always Mid Roll with a Str weapon, like a Greataxe, or something similar. However using DAs forces me to roll, or trade hits. If I don't want to, or can't trade hits, I'm forced to roll and then I get roflstomped, because my opponent can hit me easily in Mid Roll, or at it's exit.

    Spells are my bane, because blocking them without Havel's Shield is a very bad idea, not to mention DA WoG. I'd rather block than evade spells, because it takes only a slight lag and you eat a CSS/DB for most of your HP.

    I'm just repeating what Animaaal aready said on all of the things I pointed out at.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:41 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:....Mid roll isn't gimped by dead angles.....

    You're right.  I thought that using a shield was implied, that was my fault.  A mid-roller wearing Giants Armor, no shield, and a Zweh is not affected by dead angles for the most part.

    My apologies.

    Forum Pirate wrote:......I've listed the counters to turtles and explained why they don't work (at least so long as the turtle doesn't also suck) already. None of them can be implemented effectively and reliably, and all of them leave you vulnerable to the turtles attacks (while the turtle remains protected.....

    There are plenty of other ways to deal with turtles outside of dead angles, regardless of the opponents skill.  Some of those require specific traits incorporated in your build (archbuilds) and some of those require patience.  Most of the community does not like the idea of “stretching out” fights, so poisoning them, throwing dung pies, or using pine resin are typically not looked at as being effective because they take a very long time to work.

    Regardless, saying they take a long time to work is not (not trying to put words in your mouth), imo, a valid argument against a strategy’s ability to be effective.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:01 pm

    dead angles are only a problem in that they can force a dodge. thing is, lots of things can force a dodge.

    mlgs r2s,
    gfb/gcfb aimed behind you,
    db,
    hcsm,
    css,
    kick spam (its useless against a fast roller because the follow up attack won't hit but holly crap is it irritating when mid rolling, which, btw is not a requirement, or even a common thing with the turtles I meet. they're all fast rolling with the crest shield)
    wog/force spam (when not dead angled, it will guard break you if you block enough, but if you dodge a follow up stuns you, which often ends in a bs.)
    spear spam
    curved sword spam (the gt is mean here, you have to dodge that bleed)


    4 of these require little or no investment to get, so an anti-mid roll weapon is within everyones reach and that's what makes it the weaker option. (diminishing returne on defense doesn't help)


    With or without a shield is irrelevant to why mid rolling is less than desirable.

    Its the avalibility and quick use of moss that makes poision/toxic not a valid counter, and that every time you use it you expose yourself to the turtles spear (because its usually a spear in my experience.)

    If you're far enough away that they can't hit you, you're to far away to punish a moss attempt in time (and they can moss before it triggers), if you pressure they can tag you when you use the item.

    You can force a dodge without dead angles, but the fast roll isn't prone to the same recovery strike weakness that the mid roll is, especially id the dwgr is involved, so you're not going to be able to take advantage of the forced dodge (unless they make a stupid mistake, like rolling twice in a row or falling for a spell cancel)

    The tactic itself, on fast rollers, has no viable counter I'm aware of, except dead angles (and the shotel, but that's overcentralising.) What you are doing is baiting flaws in the execution, but that doesn't mean the tactic would be any less overpowered were dead angles not an issue.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:16 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:dead angles are only a problem in that they can force a dodge. thing is, lots of things can force a dodge.

    mlgs r2s,
    gfb/gcfb aimed behind you,
    db,
    hcsm,
    css,
    kick spam (its useless against a fast roller because the follow up attack won't hit but holly crap is it irritating when mid rolling, which, btw is not a requirement, or even a common thing with the turtles I meet. they're all fast rolling with the crest shield)
    wog/force spam (when not dead angled, it will guard break you if you block enough, but if you dodge a follow up stuns you, which often ends in a bs.)
    spear spam
    curved sword spam (the gt is mean here, you have to dodge that bleed)
    Alright, excluding Dead Angles.

    MLGS R2, Pyros, Dark Bead, HCSM, CSS are all ranged. Evading them creates less opening than evading a DA melee, because of the distance between you and the user. The only exception being DB, which is easily punished by roll BS even with a Mid Roll.

    Kick spam? I don't quite see where the problem here is. You can block their kicks, it pushes them away from you, punish them as they get back for another kick? I can understand that it can be an annoying problem for slow Str weapon though.

    Getting guard break from Force seems as a minor threat. In the worst case scenario, I can eat one and use it to replenish my Stamina. Of course, do so with something covering my back, so that I can't get backstabbed. Still, if I keep backpedalling, there will always be enough distance to not get even a spear poke in there. While I can, if I have one.
    I never met someone trying to break my guard by using Force. Most people use it to bypass my shield, pull me to them and bs me. WoG is the same problem, only it does damage, but has less casts. Unless it's hyper mode buffed, Crest Shield can take the chip damage on blocks. It will hurt, but it will hurt less then a DA WoG, especially if chained into a bs.

    Unless it's a DSS you can block all they got for you. You can always parry those spammers as well. I'd never evade a spear, especially with a Mid Roll, because I know I will get hit as I exit the roll. Block and try to parry or Poise bs. Shield isn't enough? SMS, or Greatshield time, even if I have to two hand the damn thing.

    Curved Swords are a problem. Buffed Falchion, od Poise GT spam is an issue for most builds. Again, you can parry it. However, unlike spears, you can outrange these guys with a spear yourself. If you do your spacing correctly, they won't touch you.

    Overall, only real problem among the things you listed is Dark Bead. You can't block it with Crest Shield and Mid Roll evasion is extremely risky. This does force a roll, that can be easily exploited. The rest does not, even if it may seem as the best course of action, you have other options. Even if less effective, you have those options. With melee DA, you have only two. Trading, or evading, with the first not always being an option.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:21 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:....With or without a shield is irrelevant to why mid rolling is less than desirable...

    I know, I know, again I apologize.  I was just trying to imply that it is a sad day when someone who has the freedom of going to 50% can't use the Silver Knight Shield or the Black Knight Shield in a reliable fashion because of dead angles.


    Something I've been experimenting with lately is the Pursuer-->Avelyn combo.  A lot of people are familiar with Pursuers now and roll forward through it.  If you time it right, the Avelyn will create a barrage guaranteeing a head shot, thereby forcing them to eat ALL of the Pursuers.  The only thing that seems to side step the technique is the DWGR, or rolling to the side. And that only works if they also have poise.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:22 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Seriously, am I the only one who mid rolls?
     My first builds were mid rolls and then I discovered the flipping, as we all did at one point, and then I went to fast rolling. Lately, I have been using slower mid roll builds, and I have to say that I'm honestly loving it. Dead angling is not that huge of an issue because I either have a great shield and don't lock on, or I two hand my DKGA and go nuclear The Murgence 

    Turtles can be a bit annoying, but all you have to do is not lock on to them and sprint behind them. Yeah it might take a while, but once they freak out and stop turtling then the fight typically will go in your favor.


    EDIT: to the Pursuer Aveyln combo, I used Pursuers and fire tempest with 45 dex for a while, mostly on gankers, and the results were spectacular. It's a little tricky; like most things in the game, however, once you get it down you put them down. (oh that was awful)laughing


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:36 pm

    assuming you have full stamina, yes you can just block force/wog/spear spam. You don't necessarily though, and its then that one should attack because they'll get through (before you can retreat, because you can't dodge or they'll tag you)

    All of the ranged attacks can be used up close (css being the worst in melee range, it tends to go over heads) and unlocked to compensate for your dodge, more so in melee range. You can just hit them, if you're quick and using a faster weapon, but you may or may not stun them, and they will stun you, almost certainly to spell combo or bs you to death right there.

    As I understand it, with melee da attempts you can block, btw, you just have to turn the right direction (weapons dead angle best in patterns, fyi) so if you guess right (no more complicated than guessing where someone will throw that fireball coming at you, though you generally have less time to do it.) simply face the opposite direction they are to block.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:42 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:As I understand it, with melee da attempts you can block, btw, you just have to turn the right direction (weapons dead angle best in patterns, fyi) so if you guess right (no more complicated than guessing where someone will throw that fireball coming at you, though you generally have less time to do it.) simply face the opposite direction they are to block.
    Can you elaborate on this a bit?
    Do I understand it correctly that if my opponent tries to DA me, with a Force, for example and he turns right, while I turn left, I will block it?

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:48 pm

    Midroll builds (and fat roll) are built to trade.  IMO if you're going to make one you need to think of ways you can dodge safely (long ranged stuff) or make it so that you CAN trade.  The whole point of wearing big heavy armor builds is to trade successfully.  Melee dead angles are the least of a mid-roller's worries IMO; they're usually the ones going for them or carrying a weapon that can trade with DA attempts.  The toughest matchups I get as a mid-roller are people who space well for pokes and people who DA WoG in ganks.  Even in those, I never feel like I "build lost" to someone in 1v1.  Whenever I look at a 1v1 match I've lost, I can usually think of one or more often several times I either decided to do the wrong thing or executed it poorly. 

    The *rare* exception is when the lag is just freaking awful.  I had a match last night where I beat on someone and then backstabbed him, didn't see damage, and decided to black crystal out.  As I started the BC animation, the damage appeared on him.  I thought he was a hacker, but in reality the lag in that one was just that bad ^_^.  Nobody should be on the floor with no damage after getting hit before the BS animation starts!  Jebus.  That probably wasn't worth either of our time anyway.

     

    Do I understand it correctly that if my opponent tries to DA me, with a Force, for example and he turns right, while I turn left, I will block it

    That is correct.  It is also correct that if someone casts WoG and faces away from you, if you also face away from him and block you'll block it.  It's checking where you're facing against where they're facing without taking into account directional positioning of the attack.

    It's true that with melee you can often predict how they'll turn...unfortunately with DA WoG and force this is less viable, because hits from "more than 90 degrees" will still count as behind so you have to guess more than just 180, but also a slight turn one way or the other.  Not a viable way to handle it in WoG's case IMO sadly.


    Last edited by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:49 pm

    In regards to blocking dead angles:

    -A fast rollers perspective...
    If you're trying to block das as a fast roller you're doing it wrong...no?

    -A mid-rollers perspective....
    Yes, you can block it. However, if the person who is trying to dead angle you realizes that you are capable of blocking it, they will wait for you to block it and backstab you. You have to expose you're back in order to block it, and then wait for the blocking animation to complete it's cycle, making it largely ineffective in dealing with a good dead angler, because said dead angler becomes.....Backstab 

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

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